Stop generalizing about people based on their handicap.

[iacas]

  bplewis24 said:

Can you (or somebody else) provide a simple, cogent argument that a driving distance

Driving distance (and more so distance with, say, a 7-iron) is STILL tied to handicap

in general , but it's one of the factors that's least tied to it. It has a low "R value." Poor players with 18 handicaps can get away with a lousier swing when the ball's in the air (teed up) and can still generate a lot of speed. They can't get away with it as much when the ball's on the ground. Now what I'm saying is relative - there's still a correlation, but it's not as strong as one of the strongest ones out there - low point, which I've already discussed above and which has an incredibly HIGH correlation to handicap index.

  Cornbread said:

I'm far more put-off and amazed by the posting here where people ask; what sort of golf tee should they buy, or should they wear a hat or a visor!

Wow, you just keep right on truckin' down the path, don't you? That's disappointing behavior, to say the least.

[brgolf]

It is definitely possible for a high handicap player to hit the ball 300 yards plus frequently but also that many of their drives could be very wayward. I've seen it.

I firmly believe that most people who quote their average distance are relating to the place where the majority of their good shots land.

[iacas]

OK guys, let's talk about something OTHER than distance, please. I've already said that's one of the weaker correlations out there - let's agree on that and talk about other possible things.

[Bullitt5339]

  brgolf said:

It is definitely possible for a high handicap player to hit the ball 300 yards plus frequently but also that many of their drives could be very wayward. I've seen it.

You mean we're supposed to factor in those 180 yard pop ups into our average driving distance? Who'd have thunk it.....lol

I would 100% agree with you, people do not like to factor in their crappy shots. I report every round for handicap, so there's some decent ones, 87's, 88's, and some horrible ones up near 100 that get reported for me. I play with a couple guys at the club that only put in their good rounds, and then wonder why I beat them in handicapped tournaments. You have to take the good with the bad, I think.

[Bullitt5339]

  iacas said:

OK guys, let's talk about something OTHER than distance, please. I've already said that's one of the weaker correlations out there - let's agree on that and talk about other possible things.

From reading your posts here, is it safe to assume that you believe that consistant ball striking is the main difference between a low and a high handicap?

[extremeld]

Generalising about people based on their handicap is kind of a requirement of interacting on a golf forum!

Would you prefer that no one assumes anything ever?

So the 26 handicapper is potentially a great ball striker / putter / iron player / driver / etc
The plus golfer is potentially dreadful at pitching / putting / iron play/ driving etc

OF COURSE NOT

we have to assume a few general things

GENERALLY -

LOW HANDICAPPERS WILL PUTT BETTER THAN HIGH
LOW HANDICAPPERS WILL HIT WEDGES BETTER
LOW HANDICAPPERS WILL HIT IRONS BETTER
LOW HANDICAPPERS WILL HIT BETTER BUNKER SHOTS
LOW HANDICAPPERS WILL HIT FURTHER

GENERALLY SPEAKING

GOLFERS MISJUDGE DRIVING DISTANCE BY ALMOST 50 YARDS
GOLFERS ON FORUMS ADD YARDS TO TEE SHOTS - I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT - THE ODDS ON A BUNCH OF 20 HANDICAPPERS SWINGING WELL ENOUGH TO HIT THE BALL 300 YARDS ON AVERAGE AND YET STILL BE 20 HANDICAPPERS do not stack up

etc


We need to generalise - one of my expressions is this - OUTRAGEOUS CLAIMS NEED OUTRAGEOUS PROOF!

IF YOU CLAIM GOD IS REAL, I THINK THAT IS A BIG CLAIM, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE PROOF! IF I CLAIM THAT THERE IS A PINK ELEPHANT ORBITTING THE EARTH SHAGGING A MONKEY DO YOU BELIEVE IT BASED ON FAITH (OR AS ITS NOT REALLY WITHIN THE NORMAL COMPASS WOULD YOU REQUIRE PROOF?_

sorry about caps, realised too late!

[iacas]

  Bullitt5339 said:

From reading your posts here, is it safe to assume that you believe that consistant ball striking is the main difference between a low and a high handicap?

Well, it's not a belief - it's pretty much fact with the highest correlation we can measure in golf (besides the obvious - lower handicappers shoot better scores

).

[Shindig]

  iacas said:

The better the player is, the more likely he is to be well aware of his deficiencies and to think they're worse than they are. The worse the player is - in general - the more likely they are to think they're really close to seeing a massive improvement in their game and that they're really much better than they are...

This made me sad :( Largely because I'm a bad player who thinks he's really close to seeing a massive improvement in my game. But you're right, and I probably fit into this generalization.

  extremeld said:

I have not checked but think that Tiger is not actually averaging 300 yards this year?

He is when he hits driver. 320+ this week. He isn't someone who pulls out driver all that often.

Still, the generalization from handicap that bugs me the most are the ones telling me which club to have. Double digit handicap and I don't have a 6-hybrid? What's wrong with me? Or the demo day representatives from some companies who won't let me try anything except SGI irons when they find out I'm a mid-teen handicap. "Let me have the TP back, son. You should be hitting the Burner Plus with your handicap. When you get to single digits, consider the Burner irons to replace these." Edit: this was posted after I finished reading and before I posted. I want to reply to it too.

  iacas said:

lower handicappers shoot better scores

Aha. That's what I'm doing wrong!

[acegolfer]

  iacas said:

Well, it's not a belief - it's pretty much fact with the highest correlation we can measure in golf (besides the obvious - lower handicappers shoot better scores

When I first read in another thread that inconsistent ball striking is the number 1 common mistakes among high handicappers, I thought it was as obvious as lower handicappers shoot better scores.

However, after reading so many other posts, I now believe this is not so obvious to everyone. I agree with you 100%. I have never seen a high handicapper with consistent ball striking. And I don't know why we are talking about driving distance so much here. There are more important things to spend time on.

[iacas]

  Shindig said:

This made me sad :( Largely because I'm a bad player who thinks he's really close to seeing a massive improvement in my game. But you're right, and I probably fit into this generalization.

I said in general. You've been around the game long enough that I think you escape that generalization. I mean that.

[steelernation]

  iacas said:

I said in general. You've been around the game long enough that I think you escape that generalization. I mean that.

if a pro bottoms out 4 inches in front of the ball, where does a pro line up a 6i? center of stance? slightly behind center? how about a 9i? aligned with right foot?

[iacas]

  steelernation said:

if a pro bottoms out 4 inches in front of the ball, where does a pro line up a 6i? center of stance? slightly behind center? how about a 9i? aligned with right foot?

Forward of center.......... the bottom of their swing is not the center of their stance.

[steelernation]

thanks, so they hit descending contact on a greater scale...

[iacas]

  steelernation said:

thanks, so they hit descending contact on a greater scale...

Not necessarily, no. Their low point is simply further forward.

[ghalfaire]

  Rugger said:

It seems like in almost every thread here you will find someone talking down about another based on their handicap or making some sweeping generalization about them. "You're a xxx handicap so there's no way you do this, you probably can't do that, it's not possible that you don't/do..."

Anytime you generalize about a group of people and apply that generalization (average) to an individual in the group, you can make a big mistake. The only thing your handicap has to do with is your final scores on the golf course. There are as many reasons one might have a high handicap as there are players and some of the reasons for a high handicap have nothing to do with knowledge of the game.

Why would anyone lie about their handicap? It's just a number.

[Shanks A Million]

  Rugger said:

I did learn that soon after being here. I'm gonna change my Handicap to 1+ so people will think I'm important, heed my advice without question and believe anything I say.

Iacas is right, handicap means a lot. Low handicaps didn't just fall from the sky that way, they worked hard to get there, so why try to dispute them? I have experienced the same as he has, swing and handicap match nearly perfectly. I'm a 7 or so, and that just means I have many more years and a lot more practice to scratch. When I was a high handicapper, I felt the same way, thinking it was a lot of luck, and talent, and all these other silly things, but after being honest, and really working on my swing, I began to eliminate many bad habits, and slowly realized just how much farther I could go. I do have iacas to thank for much of that indeed, and I've tried to remember that the scratch golfers have experienced all that I've experienced and more. And heck, I was a slicer, and a duffer, and I had all sorts of the common problems, so maybe I have some insight to give? The fact of the matter is, that everyone learns from those who have been there, or they go there themselves. I'd rather learn from others mistakes than make them myself.

  ghalfaire said:

Anytime you generalize about a group of people and apply that generalization (average) to an individual in the group, you can make a big mistake. The only thing your handicap has to do with is your final scores on the golf course. There are as many reasons one might have a high handicap as there are players and some of the reasons for a high handicap have nothing to do with knowledge of the game.

By the same token, you could go to France and not make any assumptions, and try to speak in Czech, Turkish, Farsi, Mandarin, and Afrikaners to every taxi driver you meet, but I would be willing to bet that you'd have a much easier time if you spoke French instead, right? Sometimes, generalizing is useful to save time.

[Rugger]

  Shanks A Million said:

I'm not

Why do you think I am here being honest about my issues, asking 30 questions a day and practing a lot? I am trying to get better. I know I don't have a good swing. I am trying to recover from 18 years of baseball and put something decent together.

[Shanks A Million]

  Rugger said:

Why do you think I am here being honest about my issues, asking 30 questions a day and practing a lot? I am trying to get better. I know I don't have a good swing. I am trying to recover from 18 years of baseball and put something decent together.

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you are making a lot of crazy claims (170 to the pin, so I decided to "take some off a 9 iron?" Seriously?), and getting upset that people make assumptions based on handicap. In all reality, handicap is a measure of how much human nature you've bred out of your system. I generally only try to give advice to people who are 10+ and struggling with problems that I struggled with. I've made the same mistakes you have, trust me, maybe I'm actually being nice?

I've tried really hard to stay out of this thread, and I think I'll just make my exit now. It is a losing battle. It's a sharp learning curve, don't forget that. No matter how much you've learned, there's someone out there who's learned more.