I just threw up in my mouth a little bit

[whatwhatwhat]

How about this guy...lol

Is this a joke? seriously pause at 1.59 and hes doing exactly what he says you shouldnt earlier......thats incredible, how did he get a license?

[sean_miller]

I'll be back in a bit.

Come on, we've probably all hit shots like that - from 8" high rough with the ball going deep into the left trees.

[TheGeekGolfer]

This (rotating the hands) is exactly what my 'new' instructor wants me to do. I had been running into a roadblock on my own and after seeing some videos came to the realization that I was flipping at alot of shots, which led to at least 3 'thin' shots a round. I've had 4 lessons with him and have 1 left (bought a 5 lesson pack to save a bit).

I think he understands the lag, but I'm struggling with getting my right hand more on top and releasing the clubhead.

[iacas]

This (rotating the hands) is exactly what my 'new' instructor wants me to do. I had been running into a roadblock on my own and after seeing some videos came to the realization that I was flipping at alot of shots, which led to at least 3 'thin' shots a round. I've had 4 lessons with him and have 1 left (bought a 5 lesson pack to save a bit).

Ask him to explain the Charley Hoffman video. Ask him how getting your right hand on top will let you keep your left wrist flat. Ask him how you time something like that. Ask him how "releasing" the club and getting the club to toe up at waist-high on the follow-through is at all keeping the club square to the plane (it's not - it's closed to the plane).

Ask him for a refund? P.S. I'm using the word "release" in the same way as the gross picture that started this thread - rolling the forearms over each other. If you're working on something else, ignore my response.

[tterrag]

How about this guy...lol

I guess the let anyone be a head pro these days....

[kilbyman]

Rolling your wrists is a way to achieve a most excellent 90 degree pull hook, if you ever want that shot in your arsenal.

[Gordon McTavish]

Is it any wonder that, despite "advances in Game Improvement technology" on a near six-monthly basis, the average score for the average Golfer is not improving?

[Harmonious]

While I personally don't subscribe to rolling the arms to release the club, as I feel it is an inconsistent method, it is not a terrible way to swing the club. Since 90% of most amateurs slice the ball, the instruction to release the club in an attempt to square the face is not totally out of line. Sure, it takes more timing than keeping the clubface perpendicular to the swing arc throughout, but to a guy that hits nothing but slices, it could help him get the feel of a square clubface.

[Shanks A Million]

How about this guy...lol

Head pro? More like head case... What the hell? Do as I say, don't do as I do? He's basically telling you to flip the club, and time your swing perfectly, and the only difference between a tour pro and a hacker is practice time.

He's also misinterpreting the Nicklaus quote, badly. Martin Hall explains it properly:

[jamo]

How about this guy...lol

Yeah I've seen that before. Where did people get the idea that when you have lag you open the face?

[iacas]

While I personally don't subscribe to rolling the arms to release the club, as I feel it is an inconsistent method, it is not a terrible way to swing the club. Since 90% of most amateurs slice the ball, the instruction to release the club in an attempt to square the face is not totally out of line.

The problem is that most amateurs will then slice the ball even more. Or hit smother hooks. Which is why we filmed this video.

95% of golfers who slice do it with the path, not the face being open. "Releasing" won't help them even if they do it properly.

[MJP]

Is this a joke? seriously pause at 1.59 and hes doing exactly what he says you shouldnt earlier......thats incredible, how did he get a license?

That's exactly what I thought. He doesn't flip in his actual swing yet he's telling his students to do so.

This douche bag is just in it for money, he doesn't care for the improvement of his students. There is just no logic in thinking if your students improve less quickly they will want more lessons. More like, they will stop wanting lessons. Where as if you teach your students to improve they will come back for more lessons in shorter intervals because they just can't get enough of how good you are making their golf game. That video is just as sickening as the image Iacas started the thread with.

[Shanks A Million]

That's exactly what I thought. He doesn't flip in his actual swing yet he's telling his students to do so.

I would say it's worse; much worse. The first image was just one bad swing, this guy is trying to make you flip the club even more. Both of these guys should be hit over the head with their 9 irons though. Trying to teach this stuff is asinine. I see it day after day on the range, hacker trying to teach hacker, repeating the same tired old cliches, keep your head down, swing easy, release the club, hit down on the ball, etc. All of this is terrible advice that, though intended well, is misplaced.

The truth is, your head can do whatever it wants, just keep your body and spine inclination fairly level. Swing easy, but make sure to accelerate through impact, don't stop your hands and flip. Release the club well after impact, but don't flip it, and don't hold onto it the whole time. Hit down on the ball by keeping your hands ahead of it, don't get steep and come over the top to hit down on the ball. Those may seem complex, but advice must be tailored to the individual. The local pro here gives advice that suits the player by figuring out how they interpret advice. One day, when my plane had gotten steep, he wanted me to swing flatter, so he told asked me to hit a few different shaped shots. He discovered that to try and hit a huge snap hook, I would swing on a flatter plane. He got me to try and hit a big hook, and then got me to hit a push from it, then we worked it down to a mild draw. I did, and he worked from there. Another student had a different problem; he was holding the club open decelerating, causing tops and pushes. Again, the pro told him to hook it, but knew he would try and do so by shutting the face down. Two different problems, same advice, and it worked for both. He merely asks for something, watches the results, and then figures out what that person's personal interpretation is. He's a great instructor.

[iacas]

That video is just as sickening as the image Iacas started the thread with.

I don't know if I'd go that far. Look again at the image. I think you've blocked the hideousness from your memory. It's REALLY bad.

It's seared into my brain. Seriously, try to put yourself in that position. Take a strong grip, palmar flex the bejeezus out of your left wrist, AND roll the right forearm well over. It's almost physically painful to do it.

He merely asks for something, watches the results, and then figures out what that person's personal interpretation is. He's a great instructor.

I don't agree. Those come off as "quick fixes" to me. What, every time you're hitting the ball bad you're going to go back to hitting big hooks, then work your way to pushes, then back to little draws? Nah.

It reminds me of the scene from Tin Cup when Roy is shanking chili peppers up Lee Janzen's rear. Just tell a guy something and if he believes he'll start hitting it better (because he's thinking about something else entirely), then he probably will. Just gets him out of his own way. It's like telling a guy to change his tempo. At best, it gets a guy to think about something else so he can get out of his own way. Yes, sometimes people can get "quick" when they get under heat in a tournament, but that's not what's happening on the range. You know how often we've asked a student to change their tempo? I'll put the over-under at 1/2. Any takers on the over? The only time we'll ask someone to do something with a different tempo is to do something slowly so they can feel something in particular more. It's part of a drill or a training thing. Their tempo is their tempo. Good luck telling Nick Price to slow down, eh? And maybe you didn't explain things quite right, SAM, so I'm still giving the guy the benefit of the doubt that he's good.

[Harmonious]

A little off the main topice here, but something that continues to bother me on this forum. This is not directed at Erik, who does know a lot about the swing, but to the rest of the Sandtrap "experts":

The 2nd video from the guy at Greyhawk (Kostis-McCord golf school) gives a 2 minute quick tip in an attempt to get amateurs who slice the ball to square up the clubface. I've never heard of this guy, but given that he is an instructor at a very prestigious school leads me to think that he may have some knowledge about the golf swing.

Do I necessarily agree with rolling the arms through impact? No, but I don't have a chronic slice. Do I think that a chronic slicer who comes into the ball with an open clubface could benefit from practicing his quick tip to get the feel of squaring the clubface? Definitely, yes.

My gripe is that the Sand trap literati spend most of their time, not by discussing how and why they might disagree with this tip, they use terms like "a joke", "head case", "douche bag", "sickening", "asinine". In fact, you have no idea whether this same teacher may use a completely different approach to someone who hooks the ball. If he is a good teacher, and not a "douche bag", that's exactly what he would do.

Lighten up people. You certainly don't know as much about the golf swing as you think you do. There are many ways to swing the club to get good results.

[Phil McGleno]

I see a lot more slicers come to me with a closed clubface in an attempt to get the ball started somewhere left. Why would I change the clubface when they're coming across the ball 20 degrees?

My gripe is that the Sand trap literati spend most of their time, not by discussing how and why they might disagree with this tip

Gee, that's not snide. Isn't there an entire talk here on releasing the clubhead? I agree with that, and not this sickening, asinine, joke of a head case douchebag. Oops! It doesn't matter. That swing is not good for anyone.

Lighten up people. There are many ways to swing the club to get good results.

You could take your own advice.

I teach the student, not a single swing, but in the end there's really only one way to get good results. That doesn't mean relying on a ton of timing issues or doing things which simply defy common sense. But thanks for the sermon from Mount High. Instead of bashing some poor instructor, you've bashed a bunch of people you talk to on a web site. Wouldn't have been my strategy, but...

[Zeph]

Do I necessarily agree with rolling the arms through impact? No, but I don't have a chronic slice. Do I think that a chronic slicer who comes into the ball with an open clubface could benefit from practicing his quick tip to get the feel of squaring the clubface? Definitely, yes.

The only problem is that 95% of the slicers do so with a square clubface and out-to-in swingpath. Closing the clubface will give you the ability to hit it straight, but when you don't time it perfectly, it can be anything from an ugly pull-hook to a big slice.

The problem with this tip is that timing something like he demonstrates is only for the gifted people like Tiger Woods. For a high handicapper, there are other ways to get rid of the slice, which will give better results and be more consistent. The reason we bring up stuff like this is that in most cases, the student end up in a worse place than they were to begin with. I could tell someone who is hitting it fat to put the ball inside his back foot, which would probably cause him to hit it less fat. It would probably lead to lots of other problems, but it might help with the fat shots. I don't give such a tip because it is a bandaid fix that in the end won't help the guy at all. You can swing the club in the least imaginable way (ref. the thread about super ugly swing and crushes the ball), but that does not mean I would try teaching that swing to anyone else. Since this guy is instructing other people, we are allowed to complain with stuff we don't agree on. We strive to make golf easier for the players, not harder. I also believe we have discussed thorougly the topic of clubhead release. Perhaps not in this thread, but what is the point in discussing the same thing over and over with the same people?

[Harmonious]

The only problem is that 95% of the slicers do so with a square clubface and out-to-in swingpath

Two comments, then I'm done. I figured I'd catch some flak, but oh well.

First - Where did you get the 95% figure about slicers, and how they hit the ball? And how do you know the student would be worse off by trying this approach? Second - My original post was not about legitimate criticism of his two minute tip, which is fine, but the use of degrading commentary (asinine, douche bag, head case, sickening) about the instructor, solely because they disagree with what he is teaching.