Official Big Break Dominican Republic thread

[iacas]

Im not going to go back and read the previous pages but I just watched this episode and he clearly states that "when putting on bermuda you have to worry about grain"(might not be exactly correct) But...then he obviously rubs the green.

a) He might have said that four shows ago and it could have been edited in. Or he might have been talking about something else.

b) He didn't "obviously" rub the green. He put his hand flat on the green, then lifted his palm up. The Rule says you cannot roughen or scrape the green. He did no such thing in the video they showed.

With no doubt in my mind he was testing the surface and should have been penalized...otherwise next time im in the sand im going to reach down get a handful and say my hands needed something to help my grip.....whatever. I will be testing the sand but it will be no penalty!

Read the rules, buddy. You can't touch the sand, but you're allowed to touch the green.

But Sara is an immature brat in my opinion (albeit a good looking one and sure can play upon occasion) that needs to learn to shut up and move on at times. Calling someone a cheater in a competitive golf situation is a pretty serious matter and certainly shouldn't be done unless you can prove it.

She took a serious step down in my opinion by

immediately launching into the "cheater" business. You do not do that unless you're beyond a doubt certain that you not only know the rule, but that it was broken. There's also a HUGE difference between violating the rules and "cheating." HORRIBLE behavior by Sara. If karma will come back to get anyone, it is Sara.

Poor example in my mind, very poor. Unless Camilo himself has ever described what he does with his hand as "rubbing.". Brian did just that.

I saw no such rubbing. Look at the video clip. His fingers didn't even appear to move on the grass - palm flat, palm up with fingers still down, whole hand off the ground. That's what I saw.

If he moved his hand side to side an inch in either direction, he's testing the surface.

Respectfully, the rule clearly defines what constitutes "testing the surface." I don't see "moving your hand side to side an inch in either direction" or anything like it in the rule I cited above.

Also, there are many more than two ways to test the surface beyond scraping or roughening. Might have to consult the decisions book.

It's online. If you were right you'd have posted it.

In fact, the only rule that even closely applies reinforces the idea of "roughening" or "scraping":

Source: Decision 16-1d/4 Testing for Wetness of Surface of Putting Green Behind Ball Q. A player placed the palm of his hand on the putting green behind his ball to determine if the green was wet. He did not roughen or scrape the surface. Was the player in breach of Rule 16-1d (Testing Surface)? A. No. Rule 16-1d only prohibits rolling a ball or roughening or scraping the putting surface for testing purposes. Since the line of putt was not touched, Rule 16-1a also was not infringed.

That's almost exactly what happened. Brian put his palm on the putting surface, lifted it partway off, and then completely off. I'm disappointed that the Rules Official considered "intent" at all. Poor officiating.

I don't recall then Lori/Sophie putter drop, (not sure how one player calling out another - even incorrectly - has anything to do with how rules are handled well/poorly on the BB, but I do recall Christine improving her lie or the area where her lie will be with the stomp down. That was most def a penalty. Try doing that in a drop area prior to your drop, or during a lift clean and place situation in your next Tourney and see what you get.

The putter dropping thing matters because it was Lori and she too got the rule wrong and a player was penalized incorrectly. It shows a pattern of poor officiating on the Big Break.

And regarding the Christina penalty, I couldn't disagree more. It was stupid, stupid, stupid. First off, the little area was effectively their "teeing area" and Christina should have been given the right to have the same lie as those who went before her. Instead, she had big divots lying around because she went later in the challenge. Second, Christina didn't drop the ball, she got to PLACE the ball. Furthermore, they're not playing "golf" when they tee up within an area of spray paint, so either the Rules of Golf apply and it's the teeing area (logically making what she did legal) or the Rules of Golf don't apply and she had to follow whatever rules they made up. Anyway, not really gonna get into that a lot except to point out that officiating on the show has been controversial in the past and apparently continues to be.

The show has some heavy edits, when he said that about the grain and when he touched the grass may likely not even be related.

Yep...

I'm not a fan of Brian in the least (and he lives only a few hours from me), but Sara was wrong, Brian wasn't shown to be doing anything wrong, and the officiating has a history of being less than good on the show. P.S. You posted after I'd started to respond, so...

Brain's own words

Brain eh?

Karma indeed. Sara is back in. I'm not all fan-boy, googly eyed, posters on the wall and removing all "h's" from my written words, but Sara deserves to still be playing imo.

No, you're the fan-boy who keeps calling someone "Brain."

Not surprisingly, but no mention by Brain

Uh hmmm.

The rules official says no infraction, but Brain, after reflection, says he cheated and Sara was right?

Brain, again, really? But you're right, you're not a fanboy...

He didn't say he was cheating. He said "It was called to my attention that I was cheating." The guy's not exactly a genius, so holding him to the highest standards of grammar isn't practical. It's well within the realm of possibility to imagine he is trying to say "It was called to my attention that I was being accused of cheating."

Solving the dilemma of the “Brian testing the green” fiasco was handled by our on-course rules official, Kent Kahre.

From what we saw of the show, the rules official did not follow the rules or do it "by the book." I've quoted the book to you, and again

intent does not matter . We can only go by what we saw on the show. If Bryan rubbed his hand all over and they didn't record it and showed us a separate instance where he just put his palm flat and lifted it up, then it is what it is, but we can't know it... we only know what we saw, and from what we saw, not only did Brian not violate the rules but the RO handled it improperly.

[motteler621]

heres the video of it, its like 1:20 seconds in. I agree calling him a cheater right away shouldnt of happened. If I was watching him play and knew the rule, I wouldnt of thought it was cheating. Imagine Tiger woods accusing someone like that, it just wouldnt happen,lol.

[iacas]

heres the video of it, its like 1:20 seconds in. I agree calling him a cheater right away shouldnt of happened. If I was watching him play and knew the rule, I wouldnt of thought it was cheating. Imagine Tiger woods accusing someone like that, it just wouldnt happen,lol.

That's true. You need to have some professional respect, and realize that the "c" word is a BIG word in pro golf.

His hand appears to slide backwards half an inch to an inch. You see no grass popping up and he's not looking down either. We don't have a closeup, but basically, if the grass wasn't "roughened" or "scraped" it's not within the rules. Should he do it in the future? No, for the same reason you are really, really careful when your ball sits on pine straw... or you are careful about not grounding your club when you're playing from within a red line, or you don't sole your putter when it's really windy...

[Bryan SD2]

Typing BRAIN is sarcasm of the finest even found on the internet Erik. (which in itself is even more wit in it's exaggeration) I've been typing brAin for PAGES. You seem to type brYan frequently. A fan of mine perhaps??? :) I'll refrain from brAin at this point..... you're insistence it is "fan-boyish" is getting old. I've been laughing at the guy for pages and pages.... Somehow you interpret that as some signal that I think he's the bestest? That's hard to comprehend.



One could interpret the video as such - Brian SCRAPES the green with his fingers. Not for a long time or for a long distance, but he does. The move is also premeditated. He looks STRAIGHT DOWN at the spot he is going to touch, touches it with his palm and fingers, then finger scrapes when removing his hand. The fingers and palm touch at the same time when his hand first goes down, but the palm is released FIRST, then the fingers last, after moving towards him with the fingertips. This is shown clearly during the slow motion of the incident, shown AFTER the live action move. Is a scrape of an inch less of a scrape than one 12 foot long with your putter? Nope, the rule does not specify length. Why look at the GROUND, touch there, and never look at your hand? Perhaps because you were feeling something and not cleaning anything? If there was sticky sand/grit on his hands, would you not look at your hand either before or after? Not Brian. Not once. Look at the green, touch it, fingertip it, then putt.

In his own blog post he said Sara was right.

Perhaps because he knew what he was doing, or at least realized he broke a rule after it was brought to his attention (at that point the - "maybe my nerves got to me". Why not cite the official decision, cite the rule, claim to NOT have broken any rules? I completely agree that Sara should have communicated in a more professional matter... but that might have been the edit as well. Where is the defense from his teammates?

Do this.... go put any amount of sugar, salt, pepper, anything you have in the house resembling sand on your hand right now. Then, without looking at your hand, reach down and touch the carpet, palm and fingers at the same time... then raise them up at the same time. You won't remove all the granules. He did not raise his hand up in the same fashion as he placed it. He was not cleaning anything... you cannot clean anything in that fashion.

The rules official was fine... he asked about the "rubbing" of the green, to gather information from Brian. Brian described what he did. How is the guy supposed to rule if he did not ask what happened? Take Sara's word? He needed to identify if anything was roughed or scraped, didn't he?

Good discussion everyone. This seems to be a polarizing moment indeed.

[Bryan SD2]

Separate post because this is a good one....


A-Rod was puking his guts out because the "cookie" the girls gave him after his first shot was laced with salmonella or something nasty! Don't eat a cookie from Sara Brown!

[DaSportsGuy]

Really interesting episode this week.

I can't believe Elena's reaction to Lori picking Sara. Picking Sara was a really easy decision. Lori and Sara are the two best golfers on the ladies side.

And Elena and Brian are time bombs.

[max power]

Watched a few episodes today, first I've seen of this edition. Brian is crazy. Seriously delusional, in need of medication and/or therapy insane. And it was slight, but he rubbed his fingers on the grass as he picked his hand up. He also looked straight down at his hand/the green, it's perfectly clear in the video. Not saying there was any intention to cheat, but as has been said, his intent was irrelevant. I haven't seen the first four episodes so I'm not sure what the deal is with Elena, but the show does seem more engaging than previous iterations of Big Break.

[The Recreational Golfer]

I watched this week's show, the first time I have seen an episode in this edition. As for Brian, I did NOT see him scrape the green, nor did I see him do anything remotely resembling what Sara did when she put her hand in the dirt and rubbed it back and forth. Not an issue, as I saw it. As for intent, where is that in the rules? "Well, I didn't INTEND to hit my ball out of bounds, so . . ."

You know why the Big Break Mesquite edition was so boring? Because after Anthony was eliminated, the only contestants remaining were level-headed, nice guys who just played golf. This one is like watching 12-year-olds play. My word, TGC is scraping the bottom of the barrel with this crowd. Probably getting the highest ratings in the show's history because of that, though.

[bplewis24]

He put his free hand down on the ground, lifted his palm, and then lifted his hand up.

Actually, he pulled his hand backwards a few centimeters before lifting his palm up. Whether that constitutes "roughing" is up to interpretation. But Sara definitely exaggerating (or misrepresented) what she claimed to have seen him do. But he did rub it.

Brandon

[bplewis24]

heres the video of it, its like 1:20 seconds in. I agree calling him a cheater right away shouldnt of happened. If I was watching him play and knew the rule, I wouldnt of thought it was cheating. Imagine Tiger woods accusing someone like that, it just wouldnt happen,lol.

Thanks for posting that. You can clearly see in the video that he rubs his hand backwards towards his foot (look at the separation of the fingers that appears and watch the shadows).

And it was slight, but he rubbed his fingers on the grass as he picked his hand up. He also looked straight down at his hand/the green, it's perfectly clear in the video.

Correct.

Brandon

[iacas]

Typing BRAIN is sarcasm of the finest even found on the internet Erik.

The point I was making is that you can't accuse people of being fanboys while resorting to second-grade level sarcasm (ooh, he intentionally misspells his name, so clever!). The behaviors are equally as lame.

you're insistence it is "fan-boyish" is getting old.

It's "your" and I "insisted" all of one time. Hardly rises to the level of "insistence."

Somehow you interpret that as some signal that I think he's the bestest?

I didn't interpret it that way at all. I simply said you calling someone "Brain" was no better than someone else being a fanboy. I didn't call you a fanboy.

One could interpret the video as such - Brian SCRAPES the green with his fingers.

Nope. He wasn't penalized and as a few Rules Officials told me that his act in no way rises to the level of "scrape" or "roughen." I'm a bit of a Rules Geek myself, but these guys are in the business and were unanimous (four for four) in their assessment having watched the entire video. One said that "the texture of the grass should be noticeably different in the area where the player "roughens" or "scrapes" and that is above 99% unlikely in the act seen in that video." I asked him where that definition came from and he said it came up during a discussion surrounding a player who brushed loose impediments out of the way and seemed to take extra long brushing strokes with his hand. The player didn't "roughen" or "scrape" and so it was deemed legal.

That's the entire decision - did he "roughen" or "scrape" the green. He didn't, and you're wrong. Clearly you're biased against the guy, and while I lean towards dis liking the guy, Rules are Rules and need to be applied evenly regardless of personal like or dislike.

The move is also premeditated.

Where is "premeditation" in the Rules of Golf, exactly? What does it do - take rules infractions from one stroke to two strokes without the possibility of parole?

(P.S. Now that's sarcasm... calling someone "Brain" far less so.)

Perhaps because you were feeling something and not cleaning anything?

Where in the Rules of Golf does it say that you can't "feel" or "clean" anything? Truth is if I put my hand on the ground and push down it's allowed. I can clean a ball by rubbing it on the green. I quoted a Decision above where someone felt for dampness and didn't violate the Rules, too.

You're either putting too much weight on what Brian said or making up rules.

If there was

Here's the thing you're clearly not getting: I don't care about anything he said. Not one thing. We have the video evidence, and a player's account of something means little when video evidence exists. What a player says doesn't matter unless the player says he either did or didn't roughen or scrape the green. Other words are not exact similes, so if Brian says he "touched" or "felt" or "rubbed" or "pushed" or "patted" or anything, they're different and clarifying questions should be asked, but again only as a secondary form of information. And "intent" matters not one bit. The thing which matters by far the most is the act itself.

Brian's story doesn't absolve him, but it doesn't damn him either.

Why not cite the official decision, cite the rule, claim to NOT have broken any rules?

If you want to get into the psychology of why Brian says the things he says, there's a large body of evidence to support the idea that the guy is just plain nuts... you do realize that, right? The RO didn't need him to cite the rules. He made what he felt was the proper ruling (though I maintain that he arrived at the proper ruling by an incorrect route).

I completely agree that Sara should have communicated in a more professional matter... but that might have been the edit as well.

You can't edit in someone saying "cheater" or "cheating" if they don't say "cheater" or "cheating."

Where is the defense from his teammates?

The guys who said it'd be a "win" either way, whether Brian wins or loses? C'mon...

Do this.... go put any amount of sugar, salt, pepper, anything you have in the house resembling sand on your hand right now.

No thanks -

it's largely irrelevant. I couldn't care less about the "sand on my hands" defense. I'm done discussing this. Carry on if you want, but the show's moved on and so will I, and I've got to get ready for our Thanksgiving feast. I strongly suggest you move on as well. Cheers.

[Bryan SD2]

Realtively good points Erik.... (pretty much all except the your/you're - phone auto correct spelling sometimes bites, just like your misspelling of Brian's name several times, right?) but I was attempting to move beyond - "he wasn't penalized therefore he couldn't have done X, Y, or Z." I'm beyond that, and was trying to go to the level of the honor and integrity of the game, as Brian himself admitted guilt, even suggesting the golf gods themselves helped knock Lori's ball in and bring (rightly in Brian's mind) Sara back to life.

Premeditation has nothing to do with the rules obviously, but it has a lot to do with what Brian was attempting to do. His words and his explanations and his admittance of rule breaking are significant. You are choosing to ignore those words and that's fine of course. But those of us who are moving beyond the "did he or didn't he" decision made by the official see them as significant.

How can you choose to ignore Brian's words and explanations, saying "I don't care about anything he said, not one thing" but then damn Sara for saying "That's cheating" in a fram where we only see her. We don't know who she was talking to, where she was, who heard her say that, what the reaction was (whether it was a producer, the beverage cart, a single teammate, etc.). Although I'm not supporting her use of the word, due to the lack of context of more info on the where and the when, I don't care that Sara said that.

Wow! That explanation works pretty well when you are on the opposite side of a situation as another poster and they choose to ignore many statements and excuses, written explanations of guilt, post show one on one camera time, etc. All I have to do is ignore two words. "That's Cheating."

Brian knew exactly what he did. Brian was not penalized, and that is fine by the letter of the rules. It is NOT fine judging by the spirit of the game, the integrity, the honor, the history, and a significant portion of what makes golf such a wonderful game, especially when thinking about his explanations... which are plain BS. The post round drink offer still stands should we ever tee it up!!!

Happy Thanksgiving to all the Big Breakers and BB fans....

[ghalfaire]

Realtively good points Erik.... (pretty much all except the your/you're - phone auto correct spelling sometimes bites, just like your misspelling of Brian's name several times, right?) but I was attempting to move beyond - "he wasn't penalized therefore he couldn't have done X, Y, or Z." I'm beyond that, and was trying to go to the level of the honor and integrity of the game, as Brian himself admitted guilt, even suggesting the golf gods themselves helped knock Lori's ball in and bring (rightly in Brian's mind) Sara back to life.

Probably my last post on this and only for clarity of my opinion that Brian didn't violate the rules.

ONE: I find it easy to ignore Brian's words after he reflected on his actions. I also ignore his words on what and exceptional talent he believes himself to be. While I admire the guy for his comeback from ulcerated colitis and his obvious state of physical fitness he isn't the most reliable fellow for evaluating his or other's talents or rules violations in my estimation. Lori is even a worst example of "knowing the rules". TWO: When you accuse a professional golfer (or any golfer for that matter) of cheating it is an attack on their integrity that has consequences well beyond a two stroke penalty. Even if I believed Brian had violated the rule I don't see any reason to believe it was intentional with the intent to "read the grain". I believe Sara was wrong to call Brian a cheater and regardless of what Brian now says she owes him a public apology for the cheating remark in my opinion. LAST: BB has done a poor job of rules in general. The Christina penalty was a good example. The marked areas from where the first shot is taken on many challenges is a what? If it isn't a teeing area what is it? You are seldom permitted to place a ball anywhere other than the teeing area unless the ball is in play and then under some specific circumstances you can lift and place (and sometimes clean) the ball. On BB the ball isn't in play until it is PLACED in the marked area so it is not clear just what rules are in play in these marked areas. Maybe BB has issued the players some rules sheets but if so I have not heard of it. If so good, if not you won't find this type of "First Shot Area" defined in the Rule of Golf that I know. Since fairness is the word of the day I think fairness means the rules get applied to all equally, it doesn't mean that the rules make sense all the time. For example is it fair that an OB penalty is worst than if you whiffed the ball? Not in my mind, but it is fair that it applies equally to both of us. ALL of you Sandtrappers have a great Thanksgiving.

[iacas]

Realtively good points Erik.... (pretty much all except the your/you're - phone auto correct spelling sometimes bites, just like your misspelling of Brian's name several times, right?)

So... you typed that massive post out on a phone, and it auto-corrected from "your" to "you're" despite the fact that both words are correct? And whatever you used to post didn't auto-correct your incorrect spelling of the word "relatively" just now? Also, I don't believe I've misspelled Brian's name once let alone "several times," but if I did it wasn't to mockingly call him "Brain." You did that on purpose, and it speaks to your level of dislike for Brian, which colors the opinions you share of him.

but I was attempting to move beyond

Move beyond what? The rules infraction or lack thereof is central to the discussion.

Brian himself admitted guilt

Again, Brian is crazy. Who cares what he says. There's no actual evidence to support that he

If I cared what Brian said I might suggest he was simply copping a plea. Sometimes it's better to say you're guilty than to have some people think you're a cheat. People will admit guilt in court to get off on a plea when they might lose the case despite the fact that they didn't commit the crime.

How can you choose to ignore Brian's words and explanations, saying "I don't care about anything he said, not one thing" but then damn Sara for saying "That's cheating" in a fram where we only see her.

You really don't understand that the two are separate things? Seriously?

My concern for what Brian said or didn't say was in the context of the Rules of Golf. My concern for what Sara said was related to the word that, as a professional, you need to be very, very careful with the "c" word. It's pretty simple... You're a Brian hater, and while I don't really care one way or the other much for Sara or Brian or anyone on the show (except Lori, who I still strongly detest), it's clouding your judgment.

ONE: I find it easy to ignore Brian's words after he reflected on his actions. I also ignore his words on what and exceptional talent he believes himself to be. While I admire the guy for his comeback from ulcerated colitis and his obvious state of physical fitness he isn't the most reliable fellow for evaluating his or other's talents or rules violations in my estimation. Lori is even a worst example of "knowing the rules".

My opinion as well.

TWO: When you accuse a professional golfer (or any golfer for that matter) of cheating it is an attack on their integrity that has consequences well beyond a two stroke penalty. Even if I believed Brian had violated the rule I don't see any reason to believe it was intentional with the intent to "read the grain". I believe Sara was wrong to call Brian a cheater and regardless of what Brian now says she owes him a public apology for the cheating remark in my opinion.

Agreed here again.

LAST: BB has done a poor job of rules in general.

Agreed, again. Three for three!

In the end, if Brian did violate the spirit of the rules by intentionally rubbing the green (which is allowed, mind you), that's for him to live with. I don't really care about Brian's mind or how he deals with things because, to me, he's already shown himself to be nuts and in no way likely to have success on any major golf tour, and the spirit is not what I've been discussing. So, rather than "move beyond" the actual rules infraction into an area of spirit, let's just "move on" and cap this discussion. The end. Finale next week. Thanksgiving today. I've successfully avoided a lot of cleaning, but my wife's getting that look, so...

[Bryan SD2]

Tom showing off for Miss Brown....




Big Draw for Sara




Better than the weather here in Indy




From the show open












"So, I've got 295 to the front....."












I'm not keeping track of outfits... but are these threads from the finale??

[Bryan SD2]

Even more confusing than the rulings!!!

[JetFan1983]

I finally got to watch this season, and I must say that I am loving both the format and the crazy personality clashes. Every last cast member is a nut job in their own wonderful way.

I have to go against the grain here though and say that I'm a card carrying Brian fan boy now. I mean, he was great on PEI, but he's taken it to a whole new level of crazy for BBDR. He's sort of my hero because he best embodies how I feel deep inside when I hit a horrendous shot. Throw in the constant self praise and I'm sold. This guy rules. Each new sound bite is like a Xmas present of hilarious wrapped and ribboned just for me.

It's too bad I'm the only person I know who watches this show. I have no one to relish in the Brianisms with.

Pured it.

[montru]

I think Brian is a total fruit loop, people like shouldn't be allowed out on their own without some kind od medication and a straight jacket!

The only other thing I can say is I LOVE SARA BROWN and my wife loves her too!