Sean Foley's new DVD

[enis750]

ordered the DVD 2 days ago and its here already - bonus

watched it this am as well - thought it was great

very easy to understand

lots of sweet drills to practice

the length was perfect, not too long, not too short

loved the player interviews at the end

seems to be a lot of haters in here.......

i think Sean explains things in a manner that is easy to understand and doesnt fill your head with crap you dont need to know (or understand)

but i guess i learn different than most??

i found that a lot of what he is teaching, is being taught to me by my instructor

which i actually found to be re-assuring

seems to be that if your not "pro stack and tilt" direct from the horses mouth, that its not good enough (but im not going to go there as i know zero about the SnT)

as Sean mentions, he might not teach what is always right, but he has a good understanding of what's wrong

I mean if the #1 player in the world (IMO, not that big whiner Lee Westwood) has hired him, how bad can he be

maybe he should have hired Mike & Andy............

as well, Hunter and Sean have pretty decent winning records as well - 3 PGA wins each isnt too shabby

anyways, im sure this will be torn apart...flame away all

PS - yes my comments were added to your review Erik

[iacas]

Originally Posted by enis750

very easy to understand

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. I think the DVD leaves the average viewer with more questions than answers. Again, he covers the entire swing in roughly 12 minutes (IIRC) of instruction? You can't give a lot of information in that time frame.

There's also a difference between "easy to understand" and "informative." "I like golf" is easy to understand, after all...

Originally Posted by enis750

seems to be that if your not "pro stack and tilt" direct from the horses mouth, that its not good enough (but im not going to go there as i know zero about the SnT)

Look, you'd do well to buy the S&T; book because if the stuff Foley said is what your instructor is telling you, then you're learning something that's at least really close to S&T; as it is.

I wanted Foley's video to do well. The S&T; DVDs (not the book, but the DVDs) are incredibly boring. Lots of information, but they're tough to watch. Knowing that Foley teaches S&T; for the most part, I wanted a good "mass appeal" DVD out there with this information. I believe in and really like this information.

The problem to me is that Sean gives almost no actual "how to" instruction. He says "keep your head steady." It's a big part of what he teaches, yet you're never told HOW to keep your head steady. It's almost as if Sean knew that he'd learned how to describe keeping the head steady from Andy Plummer, and he didn't want people jumping on his case, so he stayed away from saying these kinds of things as much as possible. Another example is when he talks about "tilting your body" to the left. He's describing the "tilt" part of "Stack and Tilt" but he never tells you where to tilt - just using the "easy to understand" but not very "informative" word "body."

If Mike and Andy's DVDs (boring to some, many, or even most) had were dense with information, Sean's DVD is very sparse. Which is fine - the thing's only $48 or whatever - but it's very, very light.

Originally Posted by enis750

I mean if the #1 player in the world (IMO, not that big whiner Lee Westwood) has hired him, how bad can he be

maybe he should have hired Mike & Andy............

Well, Tiger worked with Hank Haney, so I'm not sure we can use him as a great judge of instructor ability...

But in this case, indeed, I'm glad Tiger's working with someone. I called it nearly a year ago, even though it was still mostly wishful thinking back then. What's Tiger working on, after all? Hands in, shoulder down... hip slide...

But I'm serious, pick up the S&T; book. If you liked Foley's DVD, you'll like it. The only thing we disagree on is how "much" information is actually presented, and it's tough for me to see it as someone who might be hearing some of these ideas for the first time.

Thanks for adding your review.

[enis750]

@ Iacas: thanks for the response. I re-read my post and was hoping you didnt take it the wrong way......and u didn't. Wasnt trying to attack the SnT in any way at all. As you mentioned a lot of what Sean teaches has SnT in it (from what i have read anyways-again i know zero about SnT or even the golf swing for that matter).

I think for someone who knows so much about the science behind golf, i could see how this DVD wouldnt appreal to you. But it did for me, becasue as stupid as this may sound....i prefer to not know every single thing about the swing. Mechanics boggle me and the reason i liked this DVD is becasue he explains things how i asked my instructor to explain them to me.

I didnt want to know all the terminology, different places or positions in the swing or any of that jazz. Just tell me how to practice, drills to practice, a coles version of why were fixing that and let's move on. I use sort of the same approach when i explain/sell Mortgages to my clients, as i find that they understand it easier this way. Im guessing if that i was to explain different types of Mortgages to you, you would be that guy that takes 45 mins. to break it all down. Not because you arent smart, but because you are and wouldnt have it any other way!! hahahha!!!!

anyways....back on topic. So far i like the responses, they have been clean and everyone has a good point to make.

[watty]

I just got the mine and watched it yesterday. For reference purposes, I'm about a 13 handicap who has broken 80 one time, I know next to nothing about S&T;, although from reading I've done on here I know that apparently Foley teaches a similar swing without calling it S&T.;

So, all that said, I thought the DVD was just fine. It wasn't life changing, but it was good enough. I absolutely found it helpful. iacas is, in my opinion, being way too hard on it. It almost feels like you just have a personal thing against Foley. I don't know your history as I don't spend a ton of time on this board but it just seems like you're out to get him. You keep saying this DVD is basically worthless for the average golfer. Well, I'm an average golfer, and I have no history with S&T;, but I found it very helpful. Would I like more info? Definitely. But that doesn't mean I couldn't understand what he was talking about. He kept it simple. That's not a bad thing. Of course for some people, maybe they think it's inadequate. Some people also probably think it's great. I personally think it's pretty good. Point being, you can please some of the people all of the time, and you can please all of the people some of time, but you can't please all the people all the time. So just because he hasn't done the impossible (make a perfect production) doesn't mean it sucked.

And yeah, I noticed the fact that he is funny with his words, throwing in extra words, sometimes using them wrong (I have a journalism degree so yes, I notice), but it's not that big a deal. I think most golfers, certainly myself included, watch a DVD like this because they want to get some helpful tips on how to swing a golf club. And maybe some drills. This DVD had both. For me, that's enough.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by watty

I just got the mine and watched it yesterday. For reference purposes, I'm about a 13 handicap who has broken 80 one time, I know next to nothing about S&T;, although from reading I've done on here I know that apparently Foley teaches a similar swing without calling it S&T.;

So, all that said, I thought the DVD was just fine. It wasn't life changing, but it was good enough. I absolutely found it helpful. iacas is, in my opinion, being way too hard on it. It almost feels like you just have a personal thing against Foley. I don't know your history as I don't spend a ton of time on this board but it just seems like you're out to get him. You keep saying this DVD is basically worthless for the average golfer. Well, I'm an average golfer, and I have no history with S&T;, but I found it very helpful. Would I like more info? Definitely. But that doesn't mean I couldn't understand what he was talking about. He kept it simple. That's not a bad thing. Of course for some people, maybe they think it's inadequate. Some people also probably think it's great. I personally think it's pretty good. Point being, you can please some of the people all of the time, and you can please all of the people some of time, but you can't please all the people all the time. So just because he hasn't done the impossible (make a perfect production) doesn't mean it sucked.

And yeah, I noticed the fact that he is funny with his words, throwing in extra words, sometimes using them wrong (I have a journalism degree so yes, I notice), but it's not that big a deal. I think most golfers, certainly myself included, watch a DVD like this because they want to get some helpful tips on how to swing a golf club. And maybe some drills. This DVD had both. For me, that's enough.

Does he go into much detail or stick to generalities on the DVD?

[mhenrickson]

I agree with the above positive comments.  I like the DVD and think it was worth the money spent.  Although I do feel that every golf DVD should include HD super slo-motion "swing vision" type video.  That stuff is awesome for seeing the details in a golf swing.  I would have liked more information on ball-flight, but overall I thought the DVD was well done.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by watty

iacas is, in my opinion, being way too hard on it. It almost feels like you just have a personal thing against Foley. I don't know your history as I don't spend a ton of time on this board but it just seems like you're out to get him.

As I've said, though I think the "5% comment" was a bit "uncool" I've been extremely "high" on Sean Foley's instruction . I don't think I'd care for him as a person, but that's irrelevant to the conversation and he might act differently "in real life" than when he feels he needs to put on an act or something.

So no, I've got nothing against him, and have been rooting for his instruction - given that it's awfully darn close to what I teach - since day one. I'm always going to pull for and root for people who have good information and don't just make things up because the golf swing is some mysterious, unknowable thing.

Originally Posted by watty

You keep saying this DVD is basically worthless for the average golfer. Well, I'm an average golfer, and I have no history with S&T;, but I found it very helpful. Would I like more info? Definitely. But that doesn't mean I couldn't understand what he was talking about. He kept it simple.

Understanding something and getting information from it aren't the same things. I could talk for six hours about the golf swing and you could understand every word - but how information-rich is that "understanding"?

What did you learn in the DVD about the golf swing that you did not know before? Perhaps I'm over-estimating what the average golfer knows about the golf swing, because as I see it there was very little actual information in the DVD. How do you keep your head centered? Why should you keep your head centered? Which drill do you use when you're having a certain problem? Or do you just randomly choose one in the blind hopes that it will help you to get better and fix your current problem?

I'm curious - please share. I find it incredibly difficult to write "poor" reviews (i.e. reviews that make the case that the product is poor) because the amount of evidence I have to use to support my claims is much higher than the amount of evidence to prove a product is good. It's like proving someone is guilty is harder to prove their innocence (which is as it should be). I feel that I did that.

It's okay that you have a different opinion, and for just under $50 I think it's okay to have a fairly "information light" DVD, but I maintain that if you truly look at things, the average student will have more questions than answers. And I'm perfectly willing to accept that my definition of "average student" is different than yours. As I see it, if you're buying a DVD, you're fairly serious and know a fair amount about the game of golf... and maybe that's not accurate.

[Mick]

iacas

I agree with watty when he writes that he thinks you have a personal thing against Foley. You have so many posts attacking the DVD when your one review would have been quite sufficient. Also, you have a way of then becoming condescending (sorry for the big word) when someone writes a positive comment as in "Perhaps I'm over-estimating what the average golfer knows about the golf swing." There are more but I don't have the time nor inclination to look.

In my case, you had to come back with a shot about me protecting a fellow Canadian and if I got an autographed DVD, all because I wrote positively about it. I'm sure Foley can take care of himself and no, I didn't get an autographed copy.  I did not respond at the time because I didn't want to "dumb down" to the level you've taken your ongoing assault. ( which I have now shamefully done)

I can only surmise that it's a professional jealousy thing on your part i.e Foley is well known, teaches in elite circles etc. I can't imagine any other reason.  In the future, you would have some credibility if you took the lead of say, a good movie reviewer....review the movie and then.........that's it........nothing more. Also, be open-minded enough to understand that if a number of us are criticizing you, there just might be something to it.

You may or may not respond but expect nothing further from me.

By the way folks....the DVD is pretty decent for what it is and to whom it's aimed at.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Mick

I agree with watty when he writes that he thinks you have a personal thing against Foley.

That's not really something you can "agree" on. I don't have anything against Sean. I've never met the guy. I don't have a clue how he is away from the camera or over a beer or while watching a football game or something.

I've been rooting for him to do well with his players because I like his information (I happen to know where he got a lot of it) and I like his players. I want him to do well because it will help his players and if he becomes popular, the pattern for swinging the club (a one-plane swing with a centered pivot) will become more popular for the average golfer. And I teach that very swing, so... I hope he has success. His success will feed into my success as an instructor and the success, I feel, of average golfers.

Do I suspect that Foley's not the kind of dude with whom I'd enjoy hanging out? Yep. But maybe it's an act, and maybe he's not that way away from the cameras. I can't really say, and I'm not likely to find out any time soon, so I don't really think about it much.

I will point out that I've always been in favor of, for example, Tiger Woods going with Sean Foley. I called it and gave my support to that move nearly a year ago. My support is fairly well documented.

Originally Posted by Mick

You have so many posts attacking the DVD when your one review would have been quite sufficient.

So because I wrote a review, but now I'm not allowed to discuss the DVD with others whose opinions differ? I disagree with the use of the word "attack." As I said, I supported my statements about as well as I could short of writing a novel. You didn't answer my questions... like "what is 'slightly vertical and on a slight diagonal'?"

Originally Posted by Mick

"Perhaps I'm over-estimating what the average golfer knows about the golf swing."

In other words, if you learned much from this DVD - which I contend has very little actual information in it - then indeed, perhaps I'm over-estimating what the average golfer knows about the golf swing. Perhaps there's value in the DVD where I assume there's little. If the average golfer knows less than I estimate that they know, then that changes the value scale. I'm admitting that my estimate may be wrong, and thus, for the average golfer, my value judgment maybe wrong. That's not being condescending in my book. Sorry if it came off that way. I'm considering whether my estimates are wrong.

You could have been helpful in sharing some of this information which I estimate the average golfer knows that they (or you) do not. If you change your mind on your vow of silence, please share some of the information you found new. Perhaps the students I talk to know more (and it's quite likely they do, since they've sought us out and tend to have read the S&T; books or seen the DVDs or more...).

Originally Posted by Mick

In my case, you had to come back with a shot about me protecting a fellow Canadian and if I got an autographed DVD, all because I wrote positively about it.

That wasn't a "shot" at you. I put a smiley face. I was trying to joke around with you, just as I might protect... Jim Furyk or Rocco Mediate because they're fellow Steelers fans or something. I saw your email address was Canadian and was joshin' you a bit. Lighten up eh? Unless you're Sean Foley (if so, hi), I'm not sure why you seem to take the review so personally.

And the autograph thing was not a crack - I heard from several Canadians who had pre-ordered that they got an autographed postcard or something included with their DVD package. I was asking if you got one. I'm kinda jealous - I can see Canada from where I live and I pre-ordered and didn't get one.

Originally Posted by Mick

In the future, you would have some credibility if you took the lead of say, a good movie reviewer....review the movie and then.........that's it........nothing more. Also, be open-minded enough to understand that if a number of us are criticizing you, there just might be something to it.

I reviewed the DVD. I found it to be poor, confusing, void of much information, and not worth the cost. I don't feel that I have commented on topics outside of the DVD much at all. And a number of people have also agreed with me too. Is there something to that?

You spent more time talking about me in your last post than the DVD. Perhaps you might take your own advice? I don't mean that to be rude, but please, step back and ask yourself the question...

I'm glad you like the DVD. I can't recommend it. I think it's got very little instructional content and what instructional content is there is poorly presented. I feel that I present that opinion rather thoroughly and I'm glad you disagree because, again, in the end I'll be happier if golfers get better.

Cheers, man... If you're ever in Erie I'll buy you a beer and you can tell me how wrong I am in more detail. I look forward to it!

P.S. Again, add your review to the product page if you've not done so already. The review on the main site ain't a democracy, but the product review page itself pretty much is: http://thesandtrap.com/products/the-next-generation-dvd-blu-ray-by-sean-foley .

[Mr. Desmond]

Hi

Just heard a radio interview with Sean Foley on our local ESPN affiliate - When asked about his instruction and where it comes from, Sean's first response was, "I am from the Mac O'Grady, Stack and Tilt .... Butch Harmon, David Ledbetter .... et al school ... a little bit of everything,"  and then he mentioned his good friend, Andy Plummer ... I thought it revealing that the first two mentioned were O'Grady and Stack and Tilt.

When asked the fault of most amateurs, he said - the weight shift to the back foot then to the front is responsible for many of their ills. He also stated the new ballflight laws -- saying that face determines 85% of  ballflight direction, and path - 15%, with the number varying... (hope I got that right). He stated that by staying on the front foot, one might lose 7% of power, but that is made up with better ballstriking and accuracy (I thought he should have expanded on that answer). This paragraph is probably nothing new to members on this forum...

What I concluded about Sean is that he seems very holistic in his approach, not only concerned with the swing, but with the mind and physical fitness of the player. His responses are Zen-like ...

[Zeph]

He did a poor job at explaining the swing and what you should do. He hardly got started at the swing before it was over and he started with the drills. He used some terms that I didn't understand and some that people that doesn't know a bit of the swing geometry wouldn't understand. So from a neutral point of view, it's difficult to learn a whole lot, understand what he mean and how you should work on it. The drills are pretty much the usual suspects, I've tried most of them and some worked well. It was a lot of focus on getting the weight forward. Why he called half the drills for "Bonus" I didn't understand. A bonus is something more than expected, this video gave me less than expected. He also didn't do a too good job at explaining the drills, why you do them and how. The last part where his students praise him and he discuss their swings touched some swing dynamics, but not very well. To sum up, I pretty much agree with Erik on his review of the DVD. Call be biased if you want, but I'm honest here. I've watched some instructional DVDs, but few are able to impress me. The best so far is the S&T; DVD, which also got points of improvement. I'm not a fan of Mike and Andy because of S&T;, I'm a fan of S&T; because of Mike and Andy (and Erik and Dave etc.). Of all the theories and the instructional material, S&T; does it best. Because of this, I was hoping Sean would be able to make a good DVD, but it seems his head got in the way, which is a pity. Sean does teach a lot of the S&T; principles, but he doesn't do a good job at teaching it to others. His students get to question him and discuss for hours, we only got some video material, which is sadly not very good.

[motteler621]

i purchased the golf digest Ondemand video series by sean foley a few days ago. I would say its just as good if not better than the dvd's if someone is looking for a cheaper alternative to foleys instruction. This seminar got good reviews and I learned a few things. Total length of the series is one hour of instruction

[iacas]

Originally Posted by motteler621

i purchased the golf digest Ondemand video series by sean foley a few days ago. I would say its just as good if not better than the dvd's if someone is looking for a cheaper alternative to foleys instruction. This seminar got good reviews and I learned a few things. Total length of the series is one hour of instruction

I've heard from a few people that the Golf Digest videos may be the better purchase. Do you have more details? Can you do a direct comparison, or don't you have the DVD?

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by motteler621

i purchased the golf digest Ondemand video series by sean foley a few days ago. I would say its just as good if not better than the dvd's if someone is looking for a cheaper alternative to foleys instruction. This seminar got good reviews and I learned a few things. Total length of the series is one hour of instruction

I've heard from a few people that the Golf Digest videos may be the better purchase. Do you have more details? Can you do a direct comparison, or don't you have the DVD?

No, I havent ordered the DVD so I cant compare the two. The lessons on the golf digest videos are;

1. His Philosophy; how physics, biomechanics, geometery, human movement and psychology are used in his teachings. I thought he had some good points here, although he is a little weird sometimes.

2. Creating Power; Teaches how to create power and SS instead of just trying to swing hard, which does the opposite.

3. Your Body, Your Swing; how to have a less stressful swing on your body and what causes injuries.

4. Rythmn and Tempo; learning how to control your tempo and sequence of motion discussed here.

all parts have various drills thrown in the mix.

[kurisu]

I've posted the following in the other thread in the Reading section:

I have finally been able to get my hands on this and watch it.

Well, I believe that the spelling mistake at the back of the box sums up the quality of this production pretty well:

his approach to the golf swing has made him the most sought after techer in the world

This is something that has been put together in a hurry, to ride the wave of "it's Tiger's new coach", and because it's been rushed, it just lacks depth in many areas.

Now, the drills in themselves are good, and for me who cannot really have easy access to a flesh-and-bones Stack & Tilt instructor (yet), this DVD does help visualise some of the moves I saw in Bennett and Plumer's book. The problem is how Foley delivers the information. Sean ends most of the drill sequences with something along the lines of "do this and you'll get better". OK, but why? why is this or that move or this or that concept so important?

If this is the first contact people have with Stack & Tilt, well, they're going to be confused. People buy these videos because they hope to get something out of it that will quickly (not to say "instantly") improve the way they play golf. Unfortunately, instead of enlightenment, the average golfer will get clouded with more questions, or doubt on why or which drill can help their game.

Production wise, apart from the annoying "dramatic" music in the menus, you would have thought the producers would make sure you hear what the guy says throughout the whole feature. Again, unfortunately, it seems that things were on a tighter budget than the flashy website would make it appear; when Foley's head is down, the sound gets muffled; there are no quality slow motions that would help illustrate. Perhaps it's because Foley's execution of his own teachings is not as good as his ability to ad-lib with non-sense talk about how the universe is bound by your brain cells (or was it the other way around?).

I simply wish the guy would spend more than 5 real minutes on a subject as important as ball flight. Or that he would explain and illustrate why doing the drills are important and how they interact.

All in all: it could be so much better but unfortunately it's more of a commercial attempt than a real shot at changing golf instruction.

[oc1001]

"How do you make a centered turn?"

From what I got from Foley, you are swinging around a centered point, which is essentially a vertical pole running from your head and through the sternum and into the ground.  For a right handed golfer, your shoulders and hip turn in a circle.  As you do so, you'll feel your left knee buckle in a little and your right hip turn back and behind you.  Your left shoulder will be under your chin.  You can accomplish all of this but still be centered.

A great drill Foley showed was turning on an upside down bosi ball.  If you didn't make a centered turn, you fall off.

"Why should make a centered turn?"

Why? because it will help with your timing.  Under older teachings, your head moves to right on the backswing and has to move forward on the downswing.  That has to be timed correctly and its difficult.

"What drills do you do to emphasize it?

Beside the bosu ball drill, Sean has the golf-club-on-the-right-temple drill Tiger does.  Your right temple should be touching but not pushing the club on the backswing.

FYI, I got all this from the Sean Foley's, Golf Digest on Demand DVD, preview clips from his next generation dvd, and some of his youtube videos.  Its working for me so far.

[Deryck Griffith]

I finally got a chance to watch the video after purchasing it 3 weeks ago and must say that it was "better" than I expected but by no means, as good as it could've been.

For me as a single digit golfer that is constantly trying to improve everytime I play and practice, I felt like the video appealed more to me than it would to mid / high cappers who desire in-depth explanations on the literal "how to's" of the swing.

The big picture / simplistic delivery that Sean expressed in his lessons and drills are digested easier by the low capper who can easily replicate the moves without struggling with the literal "how to do it" explanation.  Subsequent to watching the video, it was easy for me to follow Sean's suggestions.  Was what he explained easy to understand?  Sure somewhat...why, well because I understand the swing myself.  A high capper who doesn't understand a lot about the swing would struggle with how Sean delivered his message and that part of the critique on the video is what I agree on with Erik.

Overall, the video was palatable enough for me to get a lot out of it even though it lacked a real sense of in-depth step by step how to instruction.  The content was "technically" good but not "technically" explaned and really, whatever objectives or intentions Sean and his production team had for the video IMO is irrevelant.  You either like it or not and choose to take from it whatever you wish.  I've seen worst and certainly have seen better and at the end of the day, I will pick and choose from various people and will apply what works for me best as a golfing individual.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by oc1001

"How do you make a centered turn?"

From what I got from Foley, you are swinging around a centered point, which is essentially a vertical pole running from your head and through the sternum and into the ground.

The problem is that if you turned around a vertical pole, your shoulders would turn completely level, and that's definitely not what he wants you to do (nor I).

But yes, he wants a centered shoulder turn.

Originally Posted by oc1001

"What drills do you do to emphasize it?

Beside the bosu ball drill, Sean has the golf-club-on-the-right-temple drill Tiger does.  Your right temple should be touching but not pushing the club on the backswing.

Your right temple? I think might have meant something else...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_'temple'_on_the_human_body