"Swing Machine Golf" by Paul Wilson

[Hammer 4]

So here's the deal. I really suck at golf but really want to get better. I have tried Paul's method without much success. I recently picked up Ben Hogan's Five Lessons book, and it seems that this information completely contradicts what Paul is saying, especially when it comes to the stance. My take on Ben Hogan's stance lesson is that you should have tight arms close to your body with elbows as close together as possible, as evidenced by the image with the web around his arms. I have been hitting some practice shots with this tighter setup and it appears to have improved things, at least over the couple days I have tried it.

My question is this: how do you reconcile the "powerless arms" approach with the tight to the body and elbows close together approach that Ben recommends? I find it much harder to repeat my swing with the powerless arms approach, because my arms are loose and flying all over the place.

How should I proceed? Would most people here say they use powerless arms or tighten them so they are close together? Is Hogan's method antiquated, or am I missing something?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Might have a look here.. http://purestrike5sk.com/videos.php

[mvmac]

How should I proceed? Would most people here say they use powerless arms or tighten them so they are close together? Is Hogan's method antiquated, or am I missing something?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Just to add to @Hammer 4 's post above. I would stop searching for "the answer" in different swing methods and figure out what your priority piece is and improve that. Good chance it's going to be Key 1 or 2.

[csciguy77]

I guess I'm not really looking for the one and only answer. It seems that both Paul Wilson and Ben Hogan have very complete swing systems, from the grip all the way to the follow through, and I definitely want to work on all aspects of the golf swing, not just one. My question was more specific, and I think @Holein1 gave his perspective. I'd be interested to hear what you think about this particular part of the swing. Would you say you use "powerless arms?" I find it hard to believe someone can have their elbows as close together as Hogan recommends and still have them powerless. I know when I move them as close together as possible as he recommends, I definitely feel a tightness there. So there is the contradiction between the two methods, and I was wondering what your opinion is. Unless there is no contradiction, and I am misreading either Paul or Hogan's method.

[Holein1]

csciguy-

You can indeed have your arms close together (ie aprox 2 inches or so at forearms) and still have them relaxed.   You can also swing with that position in a powerless arms mode like Paul recommends.   These methods  are not contradictory.  Try it. Just, don't try to touch your arms together which would be crazy.  Another tip on this would be to make sure your right elbow is relaxed and not stiff as a board.  Of course your hands and shoulders need to be relaxed as well.  This is of course just my 2 cents;  I'm sure others here could give much better advice.

[csciguy77]

Thanks @Holein1. That really makes sense. I think I was holding my arms way too far apart; when I move them closer together it feels much more stable. I think this was especially a problem with my woods as I am farther away from the ball. I guess we'll see if this adjustment makes a difference. The Hogan book also made me realize I was too loose in the armpit area, although Paul does talk about this. I really feel like the Hogan book gave me a nice, succinct way to set up before a shot. Hopefully this will transfer to the course.

[merdon133]

Only input I have is this - I suck at golf but I started taking all advice I can find and try and piece together what works for me. I teach kids and teens how to hit a baseball ( I been teaching for years) and what I found out over many years is that every instructor teaches different things (talk to 100 coaches get a 100 different swings), but all are similar in most of the key areas. I found out that not every kid/teen can do the same thing on every part of the swing but some things are a must to be a good hitter. I guess my point is teaching robots(every person the same) don't work, but the fundamentals are key and everyone has good points. There is to much focus on the actual robot, It's a gimmick to sell things( I respect that), but Paul teaching has merit, taking what he see the machine is doing and replicating it to work with humans, is it 100% the same? no but the fundamentals are close, correct me if I'm wrong a golf swing needs rotation backwards, to be on plane, have wrist hinged, lag and follow through ( the basic of the Iron Mike), follow though creates weight shift(has to right) to me that what he is teaching - rotate upper body, get your wrists hinged, rotate to start swing keep the club on plane and finish. Now how you get to those is up to the instructor

I hope I don't sound like a fool, just trying to learn golf

[rfeight]

I know this thread has been done for couple years. But I'd be interested to know if there is anyone that also uses Paul's swing still on the forum. I've been using it for a couple years now and that coupled with a few other things have led to me breaking 90 and coming close to breaking 80. That's my goal this year. 

The one thing I struggle with is the Driver. I seem to have temporarily found a cure by using Paul's fake draw stance and club position to hit a real nice fade. This tells me I'm way outside in when in a normal stance. The Optishot says the same. But the fix is working quite well and I'm looking forward to lower scores this spring. 

[Mike Boatright]

 

What is there not to like? It's common sense if you theoretically swing like the robot here then you be the man!! The problem lies in the robots uber lower stability is so far from human expectations and it's locked wrist stability and left arm leverage is beyond what any human can do that's it's flaw. If you see the best athletes Like Rory and Adam Scott swing a golf club then you will notice that they display very good lower body stability and nice left arm leverage all while making a big turn. Just look at The robots turn it's impeccable far beyond what even the best human can do! If Bryon had a head it wouldn't move a milimeter and not to mention the impact position is always perfect no dipping,or holding back. The machine never delofts the club or adds loft it's really a beautiful thing and I applaud Paul Wilson in trying to copy this move but is it really possible?

Edited March 17, 2016 by Mike Boatright

[Marty2019]

13 hours ago, rfeight said:

I know this thread has been done for couple years. But I'd be interested to know if there is anyone that also uses Paul's swing still on the forum. I've been using it for a couple years now and that coupled with a few other things have led to me breaking 90 and coming close to breaking 80. That's my goal this year. 

The one thing I struggle with is the Driver. I seem to have temporarily found a cure by using Paul's fake draw stance and club position to hit a real nice fade. This tells me I'm way outside in when in a normal stance. The Optishot says the same. But the fix is working quite well and I'm looking forward to lower scores this spring. 

I don't know if I'm using "Paul's swing," but I have found his videos very helpful.    In particular the part about relaxing the arms and hands and taking a smooth, effortless swing.   Honestly speaking, for a non-athlete like me, 62 years old, 5-8, 150 pounds, who can't pick up a 50 pound bag of fertilizer, trying to take his advice about relaxing and using the body to swing the arms has enabled me to hit the ball pretty far.   I know there is a lot of debate on this message board about what actually goes on in a good golf swing.   So I don't know if it's just the feeling of relaxing the hands and arms that is leading me to better "sequencing" or what.   I just know that his videos helped me immensely.  

[rfeight]

Marty, 

I concur about the relaxed arms. As an instructor of a martial art whose been training for over 20 years, the relaxed upper body with a solid lower body is a common theme when attempting to not muslce a technique. Same goes for golf. If you swing trying to hit the ball instead of letting the ball get in the way as your arms rotate around your body, you're going to interrupt the circular rotation and hit the ball offline. If you think about it, even the tension in your arms and shoulders rolls you onto your toes and causes you to be top heavy, creating an outside in slice. But just rotating your body 90 degrees and turning your hips and letting your arms follow without tension lets your power come from the ground. Anyway, glad I'm not the only  one it works for. 

[Lihu]

7 minutes ago, rfeight said:

Marty, 

I concur about the relaxed arms. As an instructor of a martial art whose been training for over 20 years, the relaxed upper body with a solid lower body is a common theme when attempting to not muslce a technique. Same goes for golf. If you swing trying to hit the ball instead of letting the ball get in the way as your arms rotate around your body, you're going to interrupt the circular rotation and hit the ball offline. If you think about it, even the tension in your arms and shoulders rolls you onto your toes and causes you to be top heavy, creating an outside in slice. But just rotating your body 90 degrees and turning your hips and letting your arms follow without tension lets your power come from the ground. Anyway, glad I'm not the only  one it works for. 

Bruce Lee in "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" mentions that you do the relaxed motions until you ingrain the muscle memory. After this muscle memory is ingrained, you can put a lot more force into the movement. I would guess that the difference between a Shodan and a Nidan and higher is the ability to put force behind a movement rather than just relaxing as in a Kata or Kumite movement.

The same thing kind of goes for the Golf Swing.

[Marty2019]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

Bruce Lee in "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" mentions that you do the relaxed motions until you ingrain the muscle memory. After this muscle memory is ingrained, you can put a lot more force into the movement. I would guess that the difference between a Shodan and a Nidan and higher is the ability to put force behind a movement rather than just relaxing as in a Kata or Kumite movement.

The same thing kind of goes for the Golf Swing.

Well, that's the thing.   Feel ain't necessarily real, right?  [I am not an instructor, but I think...]The art of instruction involves getting a student to do the right things.   How you get them to do that is the big question.   Tell them to do one thing, and if they try that, it might get them to do another thing, and that other thing might be what you're really trying to get them to do.   Relax your arms.   Is that really it?   Or is it, you need more lag, you need to get the club into the slot, relaxing your arms might help you get there.   So what was important there, relaxing the arms or getting in the slot?   I always want to know why I'm doing something.    Why is relaxing my hands and arms helping me?  Is that really the thing, or is it something else?  Is relaxing my hands and arms just a way to lead me somewhere I need to go? 

Instructors tell you to do something, and it works.  For you.  But not for that other guy.  Because he's different.  So Paul says, I teach them to rotate.   And Eric says, I teach them to slide.  Might not one student need to be told to rotate  more and another student need to be told to slide more?  Isn't it all about getting into the right position?  

I have said there's no one size fits all golf swing, but I'm starting to change my mind.   I'm thinking there is a one size fits all golf swing, but there's no one size fits all teaching method.  Each student needs to be taught differently.  An instructor might need to tell a student something that is absolutely false in order to get him to do the right thing.  

It's all about getting the club into the right position, and what one person needs to think and feel might be completely different from what another person needs to think and feel. 

I know this doesn't directly respond to what you said.   It's just some thoughts I have on the matter.  

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Marty2019

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Marty2019 said:

So Paul says, I teach them to rotate.   And Eric says, I teach them to slide.  Might not one student need to be told to rotate  more and another student need to be told to slide more?  Isn't it all about getting into the right position?

I don't want to interrupt, but if the "Eric" above is me, I teach whatever the student needs as the top priority at that time. Often that means rotating.

Also, Paul (unlike the robot) gets his weight/pressure/force forward too.

Feel ain't real.

And nearly every good golf lesson ends up being one that produces mechanical changes. 

[Marty2019]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

I don't want to interrupt, but if the "Eric" above is me, I teach whatever the student needs as the top priority at that time. Often that means rotating.

Also, Paul (unlike the robot) gets his weight/pressure/force forward too.

Feel ain't real.

And nearly every good golf lesson ends up being one that produces mechanical changes. 

Sorry, Erik.   Not "Eric."  

 

[chewyshaun]

Hi, I am a 25 handicap and play once a fortnight, I have always tried to seek out a method for more consistently. I played the Don Trahan swing for a year which worked great up until 7 iron and after that I was slicing my longer irons. Bit the bullet and took a series of a dozen golf lessons from my club pro. Great teacher who tried to change one small thing at a time, I just couldn't maintain consistency. I would have a few decent holes and then descend into shanks and slices and was averaging 115. Moved on to Graves golf and the moe norman swing, this got me hitting straighter with virtually no shanking but I lost a ton of distance, my 7 iron went from approx 135 down to 100 yards. Stumbled across Paul Wilson on you tube and watched pretty much all his videos and it just seemed to make sense and was well explained. First try at using the relaxed arm approach I carded a 102, and its the first time I enjoyed a round a golf in ages. Bought into his program and i just love his teaching style, played a couple  of week later and scored a 97, my best score ever and first time I broke a 100. I also played with a 5 wood that I bought off eBay and its the first time I have been able to hit fairway woods well. I manage to get approx 170 out of it on a good strike, I had a 4 hybrid before which I sold as I just couldn't hit it consistently. I am looking forward to see what I can achieve this summer but Paul Wilson has made me enjoy the game again and that alone is worth the £10 a month to subscribe.

[boogielicious]

3 hours ago, chewyshaun said:

Hi, I am a 25 handicap and play once a fortnight, I have always tried to seek out a method for more consistently. I played the Don Trahan swing for a year which worked great up until 7 iron and after that I was slicing my longer irons. Bit the bullet and took a series of a dozen golf lessons from my club pro. Great teacher who tried to change one small thing at a time, I just couldn't maintain consistency. I would have a few decent holes and then descend into shanks and slices and was averaging 115. Moved on to Graves golf and the moe norman swing, this got me hitting straighter with virtually no shanking but I lost a ton of distance, my 7 iron went from approx 135 down to 100 yards. Stumbled across Paul Wilson on you tube and watched pretty much all his videos and it just seemed to make sense and was well explained. First try at using the relaxed arm approach I carded a 102, and its the first time I enjoyed a round a golf in ages. Bought into his program and i just love his teaching style, played a couple  of week later and scored a 97, my best score ever and first time I broke a 100. I also played with a 5 wood that I bought off eBay and its the first time I have been able to hit fairway woods well. I manage to get approx 170 out of it on a good strike, I had a 4 hybrid before which I sold as I just couldn't hit it consistently. I am looking forward to see what I can achieve this summer but Paul Wilson has made me enjoy the game again and that alone is worth the £10 a month to subscribe.

Welcome to the site.

[dchoye]

Browsing through his youtube golf tips.

Like his chipping and putting tips.

Really hate his tips for driving the ball. The relax arm approach with "loose wrists"  makes me lose distance/slice the ball.

I like the feeling tautness in my forearms and having my wrists feel solid . I can have a firm hold yet still have a loose grip...maybe that what he means "loose wrists"

I still like his putting method though.

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2016 by dchoye

[Otis2014]

On 3/16/2016 at 2:52 PM, rfeight said:

I know this thread has been done for couple years. But I'd be interested to know if there is anyone that also uses Paul's swing still on the forum. I've been using it for a couple years now and that coupled with a few other things have led to me breaking 90 and coming close to breaking 80. That's my goal this year. 

The one thing I struggle with is the Driver. I seem to have temporarily found a cure by using Paul's fake draw stance and club position to hit a real nice fade. This tells me I'm way outside in when in a normal stance. The Optishot says the same. But the fix is working quite well and I'm looking forward to lower scores this spring. 

I will apologize in advance if this post winds up being long.

I went out for my first round of golf in 2015, shot a 110, went home, put my clubs on Craigslist, sold them within a day and decided to quit the game. I had been playing for 25 years but only felt I was getting worse.

Then, while planning a summer trip to Las Vegas I stumbled upon Paul Wilson's golf videos. I watched a few and couldn't believe how simple he made the golf swing look. I picked up an extra driver from my garage, started trying to swing free and easy and went to the range 2-3 times a week to see if this method would really work.

My first time out I shot 97. The second was a 92. The next was an 85. Then, I booked a pair of lessons with Wilson during my vacation.

Long story short, Paul Wilson's teaching methods kept me from quitting the game. My handicap is down to an 11, and I am scheduled for two more lessons with him in July so I can confirm somebody who reads this forum is a Wilson disciple.

While he can get pretty technical when describing his approach for me it's pretty simple - turn to the top, start the downswing with the lower body and let my arms swing loosely.

I expect to break 80 for the first time in my life by the end of the year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One more thing, which has been noted previously in this thread - if I get off track I immediately go to YouTube, que up a couple of Paul's videos and know exactly what I'm doing wrong. His web site is an incredible resource for me, and I assume it's the same for many others.