Stack and Tilt's Future

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by tsdnorton

It's a numbers game.

How many active PGA pros use S&T;? 2-5% if that?

How many active PGA pros use a "traditional" swing? 80-85%?

How many active PGA pros use a "different" swing? 10-15%?

How many pros use Jim Furyks swing? 1

So if there are 120 players in a tournament and 100 use a traditional, 4 use S&T;, 15 use different swings, and 1 Jim Furyk,,,

The numbers outnumber greatly outweigh the rest. If a certain player doesn't win a certain week, is that play not as good as the rest? no.

Now if you took 100 S&T; players, and paired them up with 5 traditional swingers, and 15 different swings? Who would be on top? Would you consider the traditional swing dead just because the S&T; players won 80% of the time in that pairing? No.

If that player is good enough to get to the Big Leagues using S&T; he deserves to be there, same as the rest. It doesn't matter HOW you get the ball in the hole, as long as it involved contact with a club and the basic physics of a golf swing.

It's incredibly ignorant to bag on anothers swing because you A) Don't understand it, B) Have never tried it, or C) jumping on the bandwagon with the others...

Stack and tilt will never be dead as long as people keep using it.

I dont get the "traditional swing" wordage. What is a traditional swing? lol

[The Recreational Golfer]

Originally Posted by iacas

I was hoping he'd win so I could see even more posts like that. ;-)

Me, too. Am I the only around here one who can extrapolate from a small sample size?

If Baddeley wins this week at Augusta (fat chance), we can schedule the funeral services.

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

Me, too. Am I the only around here one who can extrapolate from a small sample size?

If Baddeley wins this week at Augusta (fat chance), we can schedule the funeral services.

does Baddeley have a "traditional swing" now? Im only playing around but Im assuming he means traditional swing by high hands and a shift off the ball, I dont think 50% of guys on tour swing this way but Im only guessing

[jamo]

Originally Posted by motteler621

I dont get the "traditional swing" wordage. What is a traditional swing? lol

Everything not S&T;, duh. Just like everything not Butch Harmon (or insert swing instructor here) is...ummm...ughhhh...well...

[tsdnorton]

The normal 2-plane swing that most golfers use. Slight weight shift to rear foot, stationary spine, proper release, ect. I know no two swings are alike but you get the picture. Read Hank Haney and Ben Hogans book. The swing outlined in those 2 books, I would consider, a "traditional" swing,

[max power]

I'm gonna say Sam Snead.

Originally Posted by motteler621

I dont get the "traditional swing" wordage. What is a traditional swing? lol

[motteler621]

Originally Posted by tsdnorton

The normal 2-plane swing that most golfers use. Slight weight shift to rear foot, stationary spine, proper release, ect. I know no two swings are alike but you get the picture. Read Hank Haney and Ben Hogans book. The swing outlined in those 2 books, I would consider, a "traditional" swing,

oh ok. Yea I was just curious what you meant by traditional swing. Im seeing more and more tour players with left arms parallel to the shoulder line at the top of backswing (one plane). I still dont think 80% of tour is two plane

[Noonan1]

I suggest the Stack and Tilt swing to all of my buddies that hang back and slice the crap out of the ball.

Keeping weight on the front foot helps them hit it a little straighter.

[tsdnorton]

Originally Posted by motteler621

oh ok. Yea I was just curious what you meant by traditional swing. Im seeing more and more tour players with left arms parallel to the shoulder line at the top of backswing (one plane). I still dont think 80% of tour is two plane

Still, missing the point of the statement. When you watch someone with "stack and tilt" you KNOW they're stack and tilt. When you watch the rest of the players out there you don't go "oh he has a 1 plane / 2 plane / ect swing" You basically just look at the mechanics and the outcome. Regardless of if it's a 1 or 2 plane swing, it's the same "looking" swing for the most part.

Simply saying it's a numbers game. If the whole field of players was S/T and there were 5 or 6 two-plane swingers. Based of numbers alone, S/T is going to win most of the time. Right now, since S/T is by FAR the minority, they have less of a % to win.

If I need to get a mathmatical formula to illustrate a point... then this discussion has gone too far :P lol

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by tsdnorton

Simply saying it's a numbers game. If the whole field of players was S/T and there were 5 or 6 two-plane swingers. Based of numbers alone, S/T is going to win most of the time. Right now, since S/T is by FAR the minority, they have less of a % to win.

If I need to get a mathmatical formula to illustrate a point... then this discussion has gone too far :P lol

I agree it's a numbers game, but don't the numbers say something?  Why is S&T; by FAR the minority swing type?  Is it because;

1. It's too new for current pro's to have adopted
2. Current pro's are athletic and don't need to use S&T; to achieve the results they want
3. Is there a stigma among pro's that S&T; is the golf equivilent to the underhand free throw in  basketball?
4. There aren't enough S&T; instructors out there compared to "traditional swing instructors".

Are there statistics to project future trends, is S&T; becoming more popular with instructors and in 5 - 10 years we'll expect to see more pro's using S&T;?

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I agree it's a numbers game, but don't the numbers say something?  Why is S&T; by FAR the minority swing type?  Is it because;

Remember that almost nobody use 100% of the S&T; principles, while most players use at least a couple of them. Many tour players use a lot of S&T; principles without us calling their swing S&T.; S&T; was designed by looking at the best players through the history of golf, so there are of course a lot of golfers using the principles. Ref. the "S&T; is traditional" thread.

When talking about adapting S&T; more and using S&T; instructors, there are a number of reasons not to do it in their view. Firstly there is the negative media attention, which many probably don't want. Then you have the point about good golfers not wanting to make too big changes to their swing in fear of messing everything up. There is a far less amount of good S&T; instructors, which naturally inhibits more players from working on S&T.;

There is a lot of S&T; on the tours, there is no denying it. Where I believe S&T; can make the biggest impact is with amateur golfers like us. Nobody on the PGA Tour or European tour has got a bad swing. They wouldn't be on tour with one. Most are maybe looking at making smaller changes while others make a bigger change. I don't picture Bubba or Furyk getting rid of their personal style and swinging more like everyone else. Amateur golfers don't have good swings, at least most of them don't. When taught properly, the potential in S&T; instruction is in my opinion pretty huge.

I've had high handicappers struggling with fat shots ask me for tips. I only mentioned keeping the weight centered or favoring the left side. They hit a couple of shots and are amazed at how well they hit the ball. I'm no instructor, but I truly believe S&T; makes golf easier for amateurs.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by tsdnorton

Still, missing the point of the statement. When you watch someone with "stack and tilt" you KNOW they're stack and tilt. When you watch the rest of the players out there you don't go "oh he has a 1 plane / 2 plane / ect swing" You basically just look at the mechanics and the outcome. Regardless of if it's a 1 or 2 plane swing, it's the same "looking" swing for the most part.

Simply saying it's a numbers game. If the whole field of players was S/T and there were 5 or 6 two-plane swingers. Based of numbers alone, S/T is going to win most of the time. Right now, since S/T is by FAR the minority, they have less of a % to win.

If I need to get a mathmatical formula to illustrate a point... then this discussion has gone too far :P lol

I thought S&T; was a two plane method, but I could be wrong. To be honest I couldn't necessarily pick an S&T; guy out right away. Like during their setup or on a single swing. At least not as easily as a 1-plane guy like Matt Kuchar. His swing is efficient but not very aesthetically pleasing like a Luke Donald or Adam Scott swing. In the end, it's results and not doing damage to the body that makes a method stick. I could probably swing like Kuchar for a lifetime without injury and shoot decent scores while doing it. It looks goofy though, so I'll pass. I think S&T; will chug along just fine.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I thought S&T; was a two plane method, but I could be wrong. At least not as easily as a 1-plane guy like Matt Kuchar. His swing is efficient but not very aesthetically pleasing like a Luke Donald or Adam Scott swing. In the end, it's results and not doing damage to the body that makes a method stick. I could probably swing like Kuchar for a lifetime without injury and shoot decent scores while doing it. It looks goofy though, so I'll pass. I think S&T; will chug along just fine.

S&T; advocate a one plane swing where the left arm match up with the shoulder pitch at the backswing. Kuchar got this position pretty well or even a bit flatter than the shoulder pitch. What is a bit different from the guys using most of S&T;, he gets the hands very deep in the beginning, then lifts them up a bit when he reach the top. Of the PGA Tour guys, Kuchar's top of the backswing position is one that is closest to S&T.; At least from down the line view. One plane, right knee straightened, slightly cupped left wrist. From face on it's not as similar to S&T.; Weight moving a bit back and not very much lateral hip slide.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by tsdnorton

Read Hank Haney and Ben Hogans book. The swing outlined in those 2 books, I would consider, a "traditional" swing,

Ben's swing employed a lot of S&T; fundamentals. Centered pivot, good hip slide, etc. One plane. You'd be surprised.

Originally Posted by tsdnorton

Still, missing the point of the statement. When you watch someone with "stack and tilt" you KNOW they're stack and tilt.

I don't think you'd guess that my swing is. Or a lot of our students. Or a lot of the guys on the PGA Tour? Tiger's closer to S&T; but you likely wouldn't guess so.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I thought S&T; was a two plane method, but I could be wrong.

One. Kuchar's below one. ;-)