Foley Discusses Ball Flight Laws on PGA Tour.com

[Zeph]

The ball doesn't care what angle you strike it from, it only care about the angle of the clubface at impact, where you strike the ball on the clubface and the speed. A clubhead moving at 100mph is a clubhead moving at 100mph, regardless of swing direction.

[The_Pharaoh]

Of course it cares! And you've also failed to take into account angle of attack. Generally, a club head approaching from the inside is on a better line (shallower) into the ball than the OTT swing. By hitting slightly from the inside, you hit the ball with the correct loft for the club you are using. All this equates to better launch conditions and therefore more distance and accuracy.

Originally Posted by Zeph

The ball doesn't care what angle you strike it from, it only care about the angle of the clubface at impact, where you strike the ball on the clubface and the speed. A clubhead moving at 100mph is a clubhead moving at 100mph, regardless of swing direction.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Probably just the camera angle but did anyone elso notice that his demo shot at the end looked to start off to the left?

I noticed that to.  It's seems that bad editing hasn't been addressed.

[RedFox999]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Of course it cares! And you've also failed to take into account angle of attack. Generally, a club head approaching from the inside is on a better line (shallower) into the ball than the OTT swing. By hitting slightly from the inside, you hit the ball with the correct loft for the club you are using. All this equates to better launch conditions and therefore more distance and accuracy.

exactly, this is tied into smashfactor

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Of course it cares! And you've also failed to take into account angle of attack. Generally, a club head approaching from the inside is on a better line (shallower) into the ball than the OTT swing. By hitting slightly from the inside, you hit the ball with the correct loft for the club you are using. All this equates to better launch conditions and therefore more distance and accuracy.

Quote:

exactly, this is tied into smashfactor

How exactly is swing path tied to smash factor? I'm trying to learn here.

[uttexas]

You want the ball to go at the target.

Out to in swing=ball will curve to the right (for a righty).  Thus, in order for the ball to end up at the target, the club face must be closed at impact=lower launch angle.

In to out swing=ball will curve to the left (for a righty).  Thus, in order for the ball to end up at the target, the club face must be open at impact=higher launch angle.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Of course it cares! And you've also failed to take into account angle of attack. Generally, a club head approaching from the inside is on a better line (shallower) into the ball than the OTT swing. By hitting slightly from the inside, you hit the ball with the correct loft for the club you are using. All this equates to better launch conditions and therefore more distance and accuracy.

Who says you can't hit the ball with a out-to-in swingpath and forward leaning shaft? I'm not suggesting swinging out-to-in is recommended, but you can swing either way and hit the ball just as far and with the same trajectory, in theory.

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/33327/more-incorrect-stuff-draw-vs-fade

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by uttexas

You want the ball to go at the target.

Out to in swing=ball will curve to the right (for a righty).  Thus, in order for the ball to end up at the target, the club face must be closed at impact=lower launch angle.

In to out swing=ball will curve to the left (for a righty).  Thus, in order for the ball to end up at the target, the club face must be open at impact=higher launch angle.

Personally, I seem to hit a slight pull fade just as far, and certainly just as high, as a slight push draw. Same for woods and long irons - just as far with either shape, and possibly just as high. I'll have to make a point of documenting which REALLY goes farther, and whether I'm hitting a pull fade or a push fade (probably the latter). I tend to favour a straight shot, but if a fade is actually shorter that might help with club selection on some holes. Draw off the tee and fade into the green!

[Stretch]

Certainly agree that an inside-out 100 mph swing is not going to magically transfer any more energy to the ball than an outside-in 100 mph swing. What I do think, though, (and have precisely no data to back up, but bear with me) is that your average golfer will tend to hit the ball harder if he can learn to come from the inside simply because the swing dynamics required to create that path will have him retaining the crucial angles more and driving into impact, compared to the tendency to throw the club head, flip and add loft if he comes over the top.

[The_Pharaoh]

I think you've just contradicted yourself in the same post! ;-) It is for the exact reason you've explained in your second sentence, that your first sentence is wrong.

Originally Posted by Stretch

Certainly agree that an inside-out 100 mph swing is not going to magically transfer any more energy to the ball than an outside-in 100 mph swing. What I do think, though, (and have precisely no data to back up, but bear with me) is that your average golfer will tend to hit the ball harder if he can learn to come from the inside simply because the swing dynamics required to create that path will have him retaining the crucial angles more and driving into impact, compared to the tendency to throw the club head, flip and add loft if he comes over the top.

[Stretch]

Nah, we're just talking past each other.

I think we agree that our friend, Joe Blow, will generate more club head speed (let's say for thought experiment purposes exactly 100 mph with his driver) out of his own swing by coming at the ball from the inside. Great! But we still disagree about whether his friend, Moe Schmo, will hit the ball any less far by arriving at his ball at 100 mph from the outside, assuming angle of attack and effective loft are identical.

[The_Pharaoh]

Yeah, and Zeph makes a good point when he mentions an out to in swingpath hitting on the front side of the circle (I think that's what he means). Where's Erik or Dave when you need them?!

[saevel25]

Well smash factor isn't all about swing path, there's also location the ball hits in the clubface and the orientation of the clubface.

If you go over the top, but clubhead is square with the swing path, you get the pull left. But a pull left is a powerful shot if hit in the center of the clubface. Just like a push.

[B-Con]

This is an issue of what the typical golfer has the ability to do when he comes out-to-in vs in-to-out, not a theoretical physics problem. [quote name="Stretch" url="/forum/thread/44209/foley-discusses-ball-flight-laws-on-pga-tour-com/18#post_577303"]

Certainly agree that an inside-out 100 mph swing is not going to magically transfer any more energy to the ball than an outside-in 100 mph swing. What I do think, though, (and have precisely no data to back up, but bear with me) is that your average golfer will tend to hit the ball harder if he can learn to come from the inside simply because the swing dynamics required to create that path will have him retaining the crucial angles more and driving into impact, compared to the tendency to throw the club head, flip and add loft if he comes over the top.

[/quote] True. But if you swing at 100mph in-to-out, what everyone is saying is that it is *unlikely* that you will also swing 100mph out-to-in. The same in-to-out swing that went 100mph will not still be 100mph if you change it to be out-to-in. At least, that's the claim.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by B-Con

This is an issue of what the typical golfer has the ability to do when he comes out-to-in vs in-to-out, not a theoretical physics problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch

Certainly agree that an inside-out 100 mph swing is not going to magically transfer any more energy to the ball than an outside-in 100 mph swing. What I do think, though, (and have precisely no data to back up, but bear with me) is that your average golfer will tend to hit the ball harder if he can learn to come from the inside simply because the swing dynamics required to create that path will have him retaining the crucial angles more and driving into impact, compared to the tendency to throw the club head, flip and add loft if he comes over the top.

True. But if you swing at 100mph in-to-out, what everyone is saying is that it is *unlikely* that you will also swing 100mph out-to-in. The same in-to-out swing that went 100mph will not still be 100mph if you change it to be out-to-in. At least, that's the claim.

I don't think "everyone" was saying that. Some guys were saying that with the same clubhead speed and contact the energy will not be transferred to the ball as efficiently with an out-to-in swing path as in-to-out. I'm not one of those guys, but I'm just saying.

My suspicion is that in theory both swing paths can achieve an identically efficient contact. Experience tells me that theory is correct. Maybe I've been doing the out-to-in path shots wrong though.

[iacas]

I'm surprised this would get this many posts.

FWIW:

1) There's nothing inherent in an in-to-out path that gives the ball more energy or speed than an out-to-in path. None at all.

2) That said, what I'm 99% sure Foley is saying is that swinging on the proper plane, and contacting the ball while the clubhead is still traveling down, out, and forward will typically result in a higher swing speed and whatnot than someone swinging out to in.

If you want to be super duper picky, you find fault with what he said because #1 is true.

If you realize he was probably just saying #2, then what he said is fine.

I'm in camp #2 here. Which is why I didn't post until just now. C'mon, guys, he didn't get them WRONG at least... he just said something which takes a little inference or which implies other things he doesn't have time to get into.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm surprised this would get this many posts.

FWIW:

1) There's nothing inherent in an in-to-out path that gives the ball more energy or speed than an out-to-in path. None at all.

2) That said, what I'm 99% sure Foley is saying is that swinging on the proper plane, and contacting the ball while the clubhead is still traveling down, out, and forward will typically result in a higher swing speed and whatnot than someone swinging out to in.

If you want to be super duper picky, you find fault with what he said because #1 is true.

If you realize he was probably just saying #2, then what he said is fine.

I'm in camp #2 here. Which is why I didn't post until just now. C'mon, guys, he didn't get them WRONG at least... he just said something which takes a little inference or which implies other things he doesn't have time to get into.

Mr. Foley should perhaps hire someone to help him say what he actually means, because there are apparently a lot of people who unsderstood he was saying #1 is false. And they've even worked out the whys and hows of it.

[B-Con]

I don't think "everyone" was saying that. Some guys were saying that with the same clubhead speed and contact the energy will not be transferred to the ball as efficiently with an out-to-in swing path as in-to-out. I'm not one of those guys, but I'm just saying.

My suspicion is that in theory both swing paths can achieve an identically efficient contact. Experience tells me that theory is correct. Maybe I've been doing the out-to-in path shots wrong though.

I probably missed that, I shouldn't have generalized to "everyone", I'm usually better than that. I apologize to anyone I mis-categorized. You're a 7 handicap, so I wouldn't doubt that you could, at a minimum, do a good job of getting the same amount of power out of both swings. Could you get perfectly the same amount of power? Above, Erik says that theoretically "yes", but practically "unlikely", and if you're drawing on your experience, I would think that you would do a lot better job than the high-handicappers who have out-to-in swings that aren't even intentional. I don't think the average 15+ handicapper (I'm taking this conversation in the context of the video, which was about "how to fix your slice", which is pretty much just a mid to high-handicapper problem) would be able to get a virtually identical amount of power out of both swings.