AimPoint Green Reading

[RFKFREAK]

That's what I want to know, too.   I will be buying a digital level and start charting my home course greens.   Geesh, things I will do in the name of golf ....

This is an awesome idea!

( I ... will ... not ... work ... until ... I ... die.  Working to retire soon, very soon, barring a total market collapse. )

I'm hoping not to.

I could be making a career change soon, though, that would leave my professional future in flux, though, and therefore, my possible retirement, too, haha.

[BallStriker]

Attended the AimPoint 1&2 clinic today...although I really think it was a combo express/midpoint 1&2 (but maybe that is standard).

I do want to provide feedback to others.....for the record, I am going to tell it like it is....very objectively and without any concern whose feathers I may ruffle......to do this succinctly, I am just going to provide an list of my thoughts

1.  This is good stuff -- first and foremost, I would recommend the class to anyone that asks me and/or is interested....I think like I got a lot out of it and I really enjoyed the interaction.

2.  It is not cheap, so I "get" that there may be hesitation.....DO NOT think that just because you don't take this class, you can't be a very, very good putter......overall, the information is based on physics and mathematics .....this stuff can be reversed engineered by a lot of practice and feel......that said, this is very helpful to the overall understanding of green reading and there are a lot of subtleties that "person specific"

3.  There is no doubt that I can take the information I have learned and pass it along to others.....but it is a LOT to absorb over two hours and there is certainly a benefit from being in a forum with a certified instructor...for one, I asked a ton of questions and I doubt I could field all of the potential questions from those I would pass is along to......

4.  Not that this is any groundbreaking information, but this will not help you hit putts on the intended line or help you get the speed correct.....and you need to account for the speed of the greens.......the "system" technically works everywhere, but there are a lot of different calculations that go into every read....it isn't overwhelming, but it will take time to get it

5.  IT WILL TAKE PRACTICE to master......if you aren't dedicated to getting out on the green with the digital level and practicing, it may be money wasted..........for me personally, I just can't wait to get out tomorrow and get another good session in.......

6.  I've never seen the DVD on express, but my guess is that with a digital level and the info you get from a DVD, you can get most of the way there......I certainly do not buy any of the bullshit that the DVD will not be helpful without an "in person" class.....there are a lot of parts to the equation, but nothing more important that mastering the ability to gauge the slope...you can get there with practice and a digital level

Overall, I feel like it was money well spent.......and there is no doubt that I will bring my level out and demonstrate the basics to my golfing buddies.....and I won't feel like I am doing something morally wrong......I will tell them that the class will always give them more, but I can get them going if they want to take the basics and practice .....and get better

[BallStriker]

I can't feel the difference between say a 2 and a 3 with my feet .... I still tend to read the slope with my eyes

What works well for me was the instructor's suggestion to lock my downhill knee and "feel" based on the flex in my uphill knee.......it worked fast and pretty well today

[The 8th green]

I went to the Aimpoint class again and actually began to feel the slope.  The instructor had a number of aids that he didn't have the first time around, so those were helpful as well.  There were a couple of different wrinkles that were presented this time around.  Again, I felt the class was very helpful and I'm so thankful that the instructor invited me back.  Time to get that digital level out and get busy again!

What works well for me was the instructor's suggestion to lock my downhill knee and "feel" based on the flex in my uphill knee.......it worked fast and pretty well today

This sounds like a very interesting approach.  I will try it out tomorrow.  Thanks BallStriker!

[iacas]

2.  It is not cheap, so I "get" that there may be hesitation.....DO NOT think that just because you don't take this class, you can't be a very, very good putter.

Nobody's said that you can't be a very good putter without AimPoint, but the odds are smaller and it will likely take more time.

3.  There is no doubt that I can take the information I have learned and pass it along to others.....but it is a LOT to absorb over two hours and there is certainly a benefit from being in a forum with a certified instructor...for one, I asked a ton of questions and I doubt I could field all of the potential questions from those I would pass is along to......

I have doubts. You're not a trained golf instructor and everything you know about AimPoint came from a short class. You said it above: you could not field all of the potential questions. That's all I was saying before…

I'm fairly certain you did not learn what is known as "MidPoint" either. You learned Express. There's still a lot more out there to learn if you want to learn it (note: most golfers don't need more than Express 1 and 2, ever). You likely learned Express 1 and 2, which is great and again about all most golfers could ever need.

4.  Not that this is any groundbreaking information, but this will not help you hit putts on the intended line or help you get the speed correct.....and you need to account for the speed of the greens.......the "system" technically works everywhere, but there are a lot of different calculations that go into every read....it isn't overwhelming, but it will take time to get it

Yes, Green Reading (an SV③ skill) is only one of the .

6.  I've never seen the DVD on express, but my guess is that with a digital level and the info you get from a DVD, you can get most of the way there......I certainly do not buy any of the bullshit that the DVD will not be helpful without an "in person" class.....there are a lot of parts to the equation, but nothing more important that mastering the ability to gauge the slope...you can get there with practice and a digital level

I don't believe anyone's said the "bullshit" you've put into their mouths for them here. I specifically have never said the DVD would not be "helpful," just that most people wouldn't entirely "get it" after viewing only the DVD. Being in person with an instructor matters. The way the lesson is constructed, the flow, matters. The DVDs might get someone 70-80% of the way there. But there's a lot to be gained in that last 20 or 30%. I encourage people to get the DVDs, because they should still read greens better than they do now, plus they help them realize that spending time with a certified instructor is valuable.

The class costs $125 to $200 depending on how much you do and where you live. And it's a one-time thing, because unless physics (gravity, friction) changes, you can use what you learn in that one class pretty much forever. Attending an AimPoint class is one of the most inexpensive things you can do to improve your golf game. Again, that's why it's an SV③ skill.

You seem to have a fair number of misperceptions about what's been said, and your attitude is unnecessarily confrontational about it with "ruffle feathers" and "bullshit" and so on. People should get the DVD. They should also visit a class. Green Reading is an SV③ skill and, unlike the other skills in golf which require a fair amount of practice and maintenance and so on, is a skill that you can own forever once you learn it, and a skill that you can get very close to mastery level at in a short time and for only ~ $200.

So again, in case it's not abundantly clear by now: Everyone here should buy the DVD and take an AimPoint Express class. If you can do just one, take the class, as @BallStriker did. You won't regret it.

[mvmac]

Attending an AimPoint class is one of the most inexpensive things you can do to improve your golf game. Again, that's why it's an SV③ skill.

Second this.

[saevel25]

Nobody's said that you can't be a very good putter without AimPoint, but the odds are smaller and it will likely take more time.

Thing about putting is, I think most people play the same courses over and over again and they get to know the greens over a lot of trial and error. I think there are very few good green readers who can go from course to course and put the same.

Attending an AimPoint class is one of the most inexpensive things you can do to improve your golf game. Again, that's why it's an SV③ skill.

Pretty much, except for maybe buying "Lowest Score Wins"

I would say if anything take the express class. Most people are going to be having 20FT+ putts rather than consistently having 5-15 footers. Improve lag putting and being able to get a pretty solid read on long putts will do a lot to lower the scores. Knock out those three putts and that can save easily 4-5 strokes for some people. Really midpoint is pretty decent at short putt green reading as well.

[BallStriker]

Quote:

You seem to have a fair number of misperceptions about what's been said, and your attitude is unnecessarily confrontational about it with "ruffle feathers" and "bullshit" and so on.

I honestly had no intent to be confrontational, and not directed at you (there are others on this site who come across far more confrontational that what I have written....)

And the thoughts I had were based in part of things I have read on this site, but also plenty based on info/comments/opinions from other (non-TST) sources (this place is great, but the golf universe does not revolve around it)......I don't think I made any claims that I was trying to refute comments/opinions on this site (with the exception of the DVD issue, which is certainly something that has been discussed here).  For example, I certainly never said that anyone here has the opinion that you can't be a great putter without AimPoint........but I have an opinion that you DO NOT NECESSARILY NEED AimPoint to be a great putter.....it is just an opinion and it is OK for me to have it.

Overall, I stand by the substance of my comments....some may appreciate my thoughts......and, in general, I think the class is very solid and I certainly said I would encourage people to take it

Anyway..........this is all off topic and un-necessarily wasting time.........

[iacas]

I honestly had no intent to be confrontational, and not directed at you (there are others on this site who come across far more confrontational that what I have written....)

Fair enough, I believe you. As you would probably agree words like "bullshit" and preemptively saying you'll "ruffle feathers" tends to come across as confrontational. That's why I said it "seems" that way.

I don't think I made any claims that I was trying to refute comments/opinions on this site (with the exception of the DVD issue, which is certainly something that has been discussed here).  For example, I certainly never said that anyone here has the opinion that you can't be a great putter without AimPoint........but I have an opinion that you DO NOT NECESSARILY NEED AimPoint to be a great putter.....it is just an opinion and it is OK for me to have it.

Surely you'd also agree that, particularly when you fail to mention "other" sources of statements, and you include things like "ruffle feathers," the implication is that it's talking about things said here.

Glad you enjoyed the class and saw value in it. I taught a kid today who read a 30' putt as having 6" of break when it actually broke almost six feet . He closed out the session by making that putt twice in a row from different spots (6' and just under 4' of break).

[RFKFREAK]

The other thing about the class, which I really liked, is that it's personalized to a certain extent.  I took the class with a group of people and the instructor I learned from took questions while we were learning AimPoint and when we were doing our individualized part of the class, he would come over and help us or answer any questions people had.  He also stayed after the class to take questions in case anyone was confused by anything.  That personalization is something that you can't get from a DVD nor be able to share with others to help them and, as long as you remember what the instructor says and put in the time afterwards, then the class can easily pay for itself.

[rkim291968]

I tried it at my home course for the 1st time this weekend.   In sum, until I get better at it, I won't be using it.  The 1st round I used it, I used it for mostly medium to slightly longer putts.   I had 36 total putts (vs 31+ average) in that round.  The problem was that the most course greens are sloping in both x & y directions.  That made things more complicated than what I was capable with the AimPoint.   I went back to my usual putting ways and had 32 putts in the next round.

[dsc123]

I tried it at my home course for the 1st time this weekend.   In sum, until I get better at it, I won't be using it.  The 1st round I used it, I used it for mostly medium to slightly longer putts.   I had 36 total putts (vs 31+ average) in that round.  The problem was that the most course greens are sloping in both x & y directions.  That made things more complicated than what I was capable with the AimPoint.   I went back to my usual putting ways and had 32 putts in the next round.

Do you mean that its not just up and down, but diagonal, i.e., uphill and left? Or do you mean that you had a lot of double breaking putts--ball breaking left, then right?

If you mean the former, that's built into the math that gives you the read.  If you mean the later, I'd be surprised if you're facing many double breakers.  All that matters is the green between your ball and the hole.

[RFKFREAK]

Do you mean that its not just up and down, but diagonal, i.e., uphill and left? Or do you mean that you had a lot of double breaking putts--ball breaking left, then right?

If you mean the former, that's built into the math that gives you the read.  If you mean the later, I'd be surprised if you're facing many double breakers.  All that matters is the green between your ball and the hole.

Double breakers can be a pain, for sure, but my impression is that there aren't many courses that have multiple double breaking greens.

What I have difficulty with are greens that have multiple tiers.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

I tried it at my home course for the 1st time this weekend.   In sum, until I get better at it, I won't be using it.  The 1st round I used it, I used it for mostly medium to slightly longer putts.   I had 36 total putts (vs 31+ average) in that round.  The problem was that the most course greens are sloping in both x & y directions.  That made things more complicated than what I was capable with the AimPoint.   I went back to my usual putting ways and had 32 putts in the next round.

Do you mean that its not just up and down, but diagonal, i.e., uphill and left? Or do you mean that you had a lot of double breaking putts--ball breaking left, then right?

If you mean the former, that's built into the math that gives you the read.  If you mean the later, I'd be surprised if you're facing many double breakers.  All that matters is the green between your ball and the hole.

The one in bold.    I am not worrying about double breaking putts for now.

I think Aimpoint is much more effective for golfers who weren't good at reading green, and who plays in different courses.   In my case, I play one course, and putting is my best part of the golf game.

[dsc123]

The one in bold.    I am not worrying about double breaking putts for now.

I think Aimpoint is much more effective for golfers who weren't good at reading green, and who plays in different courses.   In my case, I play one course, and putting is my best part of the golf game.

Have you actually taken a class? I say that only because your question about x and y directions indicates to me that you don't understand how the ball rolls (i.e., downhill).  Also, what you're calling x and y directions would exist on every non-straight putt, right?  So you watched the read work on how many non-straight putts with, as you would say, both x and y direction?  I just don't really understand how you can have that question after attending the class.

Regardless, what you're describing as two directions is taken into account in the math behind aimpoint.  Its more clear from the aimchart that is used for midpoint reads.  You measure the slope straight downhill, then look to the chart based on your distance and your angle relative to straight downhill.  I haven't taken an Express class but I did buy the DVD.  It seems like you take the slope perpendicular to the line of your putt, rather than the absolute slope downhill.  I suppose that approximates the slope + angle.

For example, a straight uphill putt under each method looks very different.  Midpoint--the slope is measured parallel to your line as a 3% slope, but since you're right on the zero line, the chart shows no break.  Express--the slope is measured slope perpendicular to your putt show that neither foot is higher than the other, and thus there's 0% slope in your putt.  With midpoint, as you move away from zero, the slope is constant but the chart shows the break increasing as your angle increases.  With Express, the slope increases as you move away from the zero line, increasing the break.

So the answer is to just trust it.  Or, if you haven't already, take a class.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

The one in bold.    I am not worrying about double breaking putts for now.

I think Aimpoint is much more effective for golfers who weren't good at reading green, and who plays in different courses.   In my case, I play one course, and putting is my best part of the golf game.

Have you actually taken a class? I say that only because your question about x and y directions indicates to me that you don't understand how the ball rolls (i.e., downhill).  Also, what you're calling x and y directions would exist on every non-straight putt, right?  So you watched the read work on how many non-straight putts with, as you would say, both x and y direction?  I just don't really understand how you can have that question after attending the class.

Regardless, what you're describing as two directions is taken into account in the math behind aimpoint.  Its more clear from the aimchart that is used for midpoint reads.  You measure the slope straight downhill, then look to the chart based on your distance and your angle relative to straight downhill.  I haven't taken an Express class but I did buy the DVD.  It seems like you take the slope perpendicular to the line of your putt, rather than the absolute slope downhill.  I suppose that approximates the slope + angle.

For example, a straight uphill putt under each method looks very different.  Midpoint--the slope is measured parallel to your line as a 3% slope, but since you're right on the zero line, the chart shows no break.  Express--the slope is measured slope perpendicular to your putt show that neither foot is higher than the other, and thus there's 0% slope in your putt.  With midpoint, as you move away from zero, the slope is constant but the chart shows the break increasing as your angle increases.  With Express, the slope increases as you move away from the zero line, increasing the break.

So the answer is to just trust it.  Or, if you haven't already, take a class.

Yes, I have taken the course.    My use of x & y is for lack of precise terms.   By x & y, I am saying slopes going up & down, left to right, diagonal, etc..   I was using my digital level terms for lack of better wording.

[Ernest Jones]

Yes, I have taken the course.    My use of x & y is for lack of precise terms.   By x & y, I am saying slopes going up & down, left to right, diagonal, etc..   I was using my digital level terms for lack of better wording.

I find this all very confusing. There can only be one down, right? I think you may be overthinking this. Are you using mid-point or express?

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Yes, I have taken the course.    My use of x & y is for lack of precise terms.   By x & y, I am saying slopes going up & down, left to right, diagonal, etc..   I was using my digital level terms for lack of better wording.

I find this all very confusing. There can only be one down, right? I think you may be overthinking this. Are you using mid-point or express?

I took Express 1 & 2 lessons.