The Dan Plan - 10,000 Hours to Become a Pro Golfer (Dan McLaughlin)

[bplewis24]

I actually think that it proves ABSOLUTELY NOTHING regardless of whether or not it succeed or fails.  I've probably said this a few times before, but who knows which page its on at this point.  If it succeeds, it can't be proven that Dan didn't already have the talent.  Just because he had never tried golf before doesn't mean that he didn't have it in him.  And if it fails, it can't be proven that he went about it the right way.  Was his practice "proper?"  Him failing doesn't prove that he can't do it, it could just be that he was going about it wrong.

This isn't even really an experiment.  It's a lark.

Then what do you think it would prove if he succeeded?

Precisely that a person with no prior golf tutelage can succeed at it, even beginning at (whatever specific age and experience level he had before he started).  It may not be a substantial finding to you guys, but it would be a tangible finding.

[Golfingdad]

If a child displays extraordinary talent in a particular skill, the parents should know that that kid needs to practice that skill for at least 10,000 hours to get "competitive".

The violinists in the study (ones who already fit the criteria of having "extraordinary talent") who did the necessary 10,000 hours of practice, weren't merely "competitive," but rather "world class."

Of course, if you are talking about golf on the PGA tour, then I guess that would be defined as world class. But those talented kids aren't going to need 10k hours of practice to compete at the junior level or high school level or the college level.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

If a child displays extraordinary talent in a particular skill, the parents should know that that kid needs to practice that skill for at least 10,000 hours to get "competitive".

The violinists in the study (ones who already fit the criteria of having "extraordinary talent") who did the necessary 10,000 hours of practice, weren't merely "competitive," but rather "world class."

Of course, if you are talking about golf on the PGA tour, then I guess that would be defined as world class.   But those talented kids aren't going to need 10k hours of practice to compete at the junior level or high school level or the college level.

They don't need it, but they probably get in 10,000 hours by the time they get to college age. If they have an affinity and talent for the sport, they will naturally practice it to get that good.

The two cases I presented with talented kids are good examples of potentially successful golfers, and they practice it without being told and simply enjoy doing it for hours a day.

[flopster]

The violinists in the study (ones who already fit the criteria of having "extraordinary talent") who did the necessary 10,000 hours of practice, weren't merely "competitive," but rather "world class."

Of course, if you are talking about golf on the PGA tour, then I guess that would be defined as world class.   But those talented kids aren't going to need 10k hours of practice to compete at the junior level or high school level or the college level.

This is where Dans quest was flawed from the onset, he has no talent for this game from the very start. The vast majority or 99.9% of the players that are currently playing even mini tours had significant early years success and progress. The premise for the whole theory should be if  person shows significant talent in a task (not even extraordinary) then will 10,000 hours of work get them to a elite level. He should have found something he had a knack for to begin with, but he also doesn't look very athletically coordinated to begin with when he swings a club either. I don't know what kind of background Dan says he has in athletics but working out is not a sport it's an activity to gain better health, it will not develop hand eye coordination.

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="Golfingdad" url="/t/45853/the-dan-plan-10-000-hours-to-become-a-*********er/738#post_929264"]   The violinists in the study (ones who already fit the criteria of having "extraordinary talent") who did the necessary 10,000 hours of practice, weren't merely "competitive," but rather "world class." Of course, if you are talking about golf on the PGA tour, then I guess that would be defined as world class. :beer:   But those talented kids aren't going to need 10k hours of practice to compete at the junior level or high school level or the college level. [/QUOTE] This is where Dans quest was flawed from the onset, he has no talent for this game from the very start. The vast majority or 99.9% of the players that are currently playing even mini tours had significant early years success and progress. The premise for the whole theory should be if  person shows significant talent in a task (not even extraordinary) then will 10,000 hours of work get them to a elite level. He should have found something he had a knack for to begin with, but he also doesn't look very athletically coordinated to begin with when he swings a club either. I don't know what kind of background Dan says he has in athletics but working out is not a sport it's an activity to gain better health, it will not develop hand eye coordination.

This is exactly my feeling after seeing his website and watching some videos. It's not his size or weight, but the severe lack of coordination that impressed me the most. Nothing was fluid about his motions.

[Golfingdad]

They don't need it, but they probably get in 10,000 hours by the time they get to college age.

2 hours and 45 minutes per day, 365 days per year, starting at age 8.

Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying ... wow, that's a lot.

[MS256]

2 hours and 45 minutes per day, 365 days per year, starting at age 8.

Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying ... wow, that's a lot.

That is a lot. I never really thought about how many hours we spend at the course so I tried to take a guess from what I observed at the course about a couple of the kids I know that are now playing college golf.

Here is my guess.

Play or practice 300 days a year.

90 days when not in school: Average 10 hrs. a day.

210 days when in school, church, or other things: Average 2 1/2 hrs. a day.

Yearly total: 1425 hrs.

Few were out there much at all until they were around 11 or 12 years old so:

In 6 years: 8550 hrs.

in 7 years: 9975 hrs.

A lot of golf and only the ones that saw at an early age that they were very good at the game, and didn't play other sports, put that much into it.

So 10,000 hrs. is prossible for kids that are into it and on a mission, but probably not likely for the majority that are simply on a high school golf team and pretty much impossible for multi-sport athletes.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

They don't need it, but they probably get in 10,000 hours by the time they get to college age.

2 hours and 45 minutes per day, 365 days per year, starting at age 8.

Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying ... wow, that's a lot.

Come to think of it, they play 4 to 6 hours a day. If not for school and homework, they both would probably play more. One is turning 15 and the other one is turning 8.

So, the older one already played/practiced over 11*4*350= 15,400 hours and is a 3 handicap and can average a drive 260 yards. As a 3hcp he's pretty impressive (I don't really know why he's not a plus, maybe his driving distance is too short?). Most of the coaches and instructors in the area recognize him.

The younger one has played/practiced maybe 2*6*350= 4,200 hours at 8 years old? (I assume he was sick one or two days a month).

Wow, I did not think of it until writing this post. That explains why they're so good. I guess, the older one already proved the "Dan plan" doesn't work as he's not a pro, yet. LOL.

[Golfingdad]

Come to think of it, they play 4 to 6 hours a day. If not for school and homework, they both would probably play more. One is turning 15 and the other one is turning 8.

So, the older one already played/practiced over 11*4*350= 15,400 hours and is a 3 handicap and can average a drive 260 yards. As a 3hcp he's pretty impressive (I don't really know why he's not a plus, maybe his driving distance is too short?). Most of the coaches and instructors in the area recognize him.

The younger one has played/practiced maybe 2*6*350= 4,200 hours at 8 years old? (I assume he was sick one or two days a month).

Wow, I did not think of it until writing this post. That explains why they're so good. I guess, the older one already proved the "Dan plan" doesn't work as he's not a pro, yet. LOL.

So the (almost) 15 year old that you are referring to ... he practiced golf 4 hours a day (with only 2 1/2 weeks of vacation per year) since the time he was 3 years old???  Does he have one of those "Tiger" moms we've been hearing about lately?  That seems a little extreme.

My son has probably "practiced" (and I use that term extremely loosely because he still has no clue) golf for a grand TOTAL of 3-4 hours ... and he's pushing 5.  I am a huge failure as a parent!!

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Come to think of it, they play 4 to 6 hours a day. If not for school and homework, they both would probably play more. One is turning 15 and the other one is turning 8.

So, the older one already played/practiced over 11*4*350= 15,400 hours and is a 3 handicap and can average a drive 260 yards. As a 3hcp he's pretty impressive (I don't really know why he's not a plus, maybe his driving distance is too short?). Most of the coaches and instructors in the area recognize him.

The younger one has played/practiced maybe 2*6*350= 4,200 hours at 8 years old? (I assume he was sick one or two days a month).

Wow, I did not think of it until writing this post. That explains why they're so good. I guess, the older one already proved the "Dan plan" doesn't work as he's not a pro, yet. LOL.

So the (almost) 15 year old that you are referring to ... he practiced golf 4 hours a day (with only 2 1/2 weeks of vacation per year) since the time he was 3 years old???  Does he have one of those "Tiger" moms we've been hearing about lately?  That seems a little extreme.

My son has probably "practiced" (and I use that term extremely loosely because he still has no clue) golf for a grand TOTAL of 3-4 hours ... and he's pushing 5.  I am a huge failure as a parent!!

No tiger mom, in fact, his parents are worried that he is too focused on golf. They want him to find a "plan B" and a social life outside of golf. He started at 4, not 3.

The other kids mom is no tiger either. She is just following him around the golf courses, the dad's usually away doing business.

You're kid's pushing 5? Better get going on the golf clinics to catch up. I hear they have some in OC?

You and I should start a "Kindergolfer"? Or, start a franchise with @Crim .

[golf55]

"200hrs to realize who have talent"........... LOL. It doesn't even take 5hours to see who have raw talent. I remember as a kid taking classes and in 2-3 session you could tell who was the top 3 out of whole class. By end of the year I was so ahead of everyone so I was put in more advance class. 10,000 is a JOKE. People are dumb thinking if they spend 10,000hrs they will achieve something. Anyone who spends 10k hrs doing something they're good at will go somewhere but it doesn't take 10k hrs to get to professional level if you have talent. I honestly spend about 1,400hrs playing golf and I'm about to turn pro soon. Do you think by playing more golf you'll somehow gain insane amount of distance?  It's all talent and genes.  I can't even play 10k hrs doing something I LOVE. How can anyone spend 10k doing something they don't enjoy? People would just give up. When I turn pro I'm sure it'll be around 1,550hrs of golf.

All this hours of practice doesn't even matter. We all know what we're good at and I think each of us know where it could take us. For example I know some guys who plays college golf and they know that it's the highest they can achieve. For me, I plan on going on PGA tour cause I know I have what it takes. It isn't arrogant or bragging, it's just something I KNOW. I also know crap load of stuff I'm not good at. Like school, grammar, math,  dating life, cleaning, etc. My point is focus on something your good at and you'll succeed in life. Isn't that how everyone gets confidence?

[smaug81243]

Quote:

It was bad idea to not have a back up plan while trying to turn pro. Now I'm stressing the $#$% out cause my game is still isn't close to where it is. Getting close to 30.... :( dropped out of school ages ago and I need to have a career. I'm not very smart or hard working person but someone told me that IT or computers don't do a lot of work. They work for maybe 2hrs and web browse rest of the day. I need something like this! I can't handle stress because it triggers panic attacks. Can someone from computers or IT field tell me what the job is like? Please don't say it's EASY. because I failed a lot of classes that people found EASY.

You posted this in another thread while claiming something entirely different in this thread. So which is it? Were you put in advanced classes because you were so much better than the other students or did you struggle? Are you about to turn pro or are you struggling with it? You're claim that hours of practice don't matter is ludicrous. If you are struggling, perhaps that's why. You don't get better at something by putting in subpar effort. Social skills, grammar, math and cleaning are things that can be significantly improved by putting in effort.

Quote:

Do you think by playing more golf you'll somehow gain insane amount of distance?

I don't think anyone assumes that they will magically gain an insane amount of distance. With practice it seems foolish to not think you will gain a small amount from better contact, a slightly higher swingspeed due to improved form and the development of muscles used in the golf swing. What you can gain is to become significantly better at pitching, chipping and putting. Believe it or not, there have been players on the PGA tour who relied on an incredibly strong short game to compete with others hitting significantly farther than them.

[golf55]

You posted this in another thread while claiming something entirely different in this thread. So which is it? Were you put in advanced classes because you were so much better than the other students or did you struggle? Are you about to turn pro or are you struggling with it? You're claim that hours of practice don't matter is ludicrous. If you are struggling, perhaps that's why. You don't get better at something by putting in subpar effort. Social skills, grammar, math and cleaning are things that can be significantly improved by putting in effort.

I don't think anyone assumes that they will magically gain an insane amount of distance. With practice it seems foolish to not think you will gain a small amount from better contact, a slightly higher swingspeed due to improved form and the development of muscles used in the golf swing. What you can gain is to become significantly better at pitching, chipping and putting. Believe it or not, there have been players on the PGA tour who relied on an incredibly strong short game to compete with others hitting significantly farther than them.

The class I was referring to was musical and yes I did advance to the advance class.

Even the most talented people struggle, tiger, rory, sergio and so on. Ofcourse I struggled with golf. It is the most difficult thing I have ever tried. I don't have exact date but I do plan on turning pro, I just need to work on my short game a bit more. Everyone needs to practice... all I'm saying is it doesn't take 10,000hrs to be good at something when you have talent. Yes, anyone can improve grammar, math, cooking, social skills....... but compare to people who are naturally good with numbers or anything else. THEY DON"T STAND A CHANCE.

Talented Guy who spends 3,000hrs practicing will  win against a Average Guy that practiced 10,000hrs.

Obviously Talented guy who spend 100hrs practicing will lose to average guy who spend 10k hours practicing.

Ofcourse you can gain extra 5-15yards with better swing. A guy who hits 230 drive starting out is NEVER going to hit 300+yards(unless he's hitting 230 when he's 13 :P ). He can improve his swing and hit about 250 but he has his limit.

[bplewis24]

You posted this in another thread while claiming something entirely different in this thread. So which is it? Were you put in advanced classes because you were so much better than the other students or did you struggle? Are you about to turn pro or are you struggling with it? You're claim that hours of practice don't matter is ludicrous. If you are struggling, perhaps that's why. You don't get better at something by putting in subpar effort. Social skills, grammar, math and cleaning are things that can be significantly improved by putting in effort.

I don't think anyone assumes that they will magically gain an insane amount of distance. With practice it seems foolish to not think you will gain a small amount from better contact, a slightly higher swingspeed due to improved form and the development of muscles used in the golf swing. What you can gain is to become significantly better at pitching, chipping and putting. Believe it or not, there have been players on the PGA tour who relied on an incredibly strong short game to compete with others hitting significantly farther than them.

Had to give you some thumbs up for even remembering a post like that, and using it to inject some humility into the thread.

[MS256]

"200hrs to realize who have talent"........... LOL. It doesn't even take 5hours to see who have raw talent. I remember as a kid taking classes and in 2-3 session you could tell who was the top 3 out of whole class. By end of the year I was so ahead of everyone so I was put in more advance class. 10,000 is a JOKE. People are dumb thinking if they spend 10,000hrs they will achieve something.

The problem with your 5 hour theory is that people improve at different rates. After coaching summer baseball for 35 years I've seen kids that looked like future Major Leaguers in Little League that couldn't even break the starting lineup on the high school team after all of the other kids caught up, and the opposite kid that ended up the best player in high school or college. I've also seen the kid that I would draft the minute he walked on the field (just from looking at him and watching him walk around) that turned out every bit as good as he looked as a kid.

Sometimes it just takes a while for everything to click either physically or mentally and sometimes it doesn't. I certainly wouldn't give up on a kid after 5 hours (or 200 hours for that matter).

I would revise the last bolded part to say that people are dumb if they think any amount of practice is going to guarantee that they will be among the best in the world.

Too many parents think little Johnny is a can't miss prospect instead of playing sports for fun and just seeing where it takes them.

[Lihu]

"200hrs to realize who have talent"........... LOL. It doesn't even take 5hours to see who have raw talent. I remember as a kid taking classes and in 2-3 session you could tell who was the top 3 out of whole class. By end of the year I was so ahead of everyone so I was put in more advance class. 10,000 is a JOKE. People are dumb thinking if they spend 10,000hrs they will achieve something. Anyone who spends 10k hrs doing something they're good at will go somewhere but it doesn't take 10k hrs to get to professional level if you have talent. I honestly spend about 1,400hrs playing golf and I'm about to turn pro soon. Do you think by playing more golf you'll somehow gain insane amount of distance?  It's all talent and genes.  I can't even play 10k hrs doing something I LOVE. How can anyone spend 10k doing something they don't enjoy? People would just give up. When I turn pro I'm sure it'll be around 1,550hrs of golf. All this hours of practice doesn't even matter. We all know what we're good at and I think each of us know where it could take us. For example I know some guys who plays college golf and they know that it's the highest they can achieve. For me, I plan on going on PGA tour cause I know I have what it takes. It isn't arrogant or bragging, it's just something I KNOW. I also know crap load of stuff I'm not good at. Like school, grammar, math,  dating life, cleaning, etc. My point is focus on something your good at and you'll succeed in life. Isn't that how everyone gets confidence?

Right, that's why I said within 200 hours, which is one season for most of the par class kids. You are correct, this 8 year old , I wrote about, parred an 18 hole par 3 course after 5 times playing the course at 6 years old. However, I find it hard to believe that you did not spend at least 10,000 hours playing or practicing at least for fun. The two kids I know are self driven, not to get to the PGA tour, but just because they love the game so much. I am guessing both of them are exactly like you golf talent wise.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by smaug81243

You posted this in another thread while claiming something entirely different in this thread. So which is it? Were you put in advanced classes because you were so much better than the other students or did you struggle? Are you about to turn pro or are you struggling with it? You're claim that hours of practice don't matter is ludicrous. If you are struggling, perhaps that's why. You don't get better at something by putting in subpar effort. Social skills, grammar, math and cleaning are things that can be significantly improved by putting in effort.

Had to give you some thumbs up for even remembering a post like that, and using it to inject some humility into the thread.

Maybe off topic, but samug only has 1 post - that one.  I guess he researched it.  But I also give the thumbs up.  Contradicting info.

[newtogolf]

The class I was referring to was musical and yes I did advance to the advance class.

Even the most talented people struggle, tiger, rory, sergio and so on. Ofcourse I struggled with golf. It is the most difficult thing I have ever tried. I don't have exact date but I do plan on turning pro, I just need to work on my short game a bit more. Everyone needs to practice... all I'm saying is it doesn't take 10,000hrs to be good at something when you have talent. Yes, anyone can improve grammar, math, cooking, social skills....... but compare to people who are naturally good with numbers or anything else. THEY DON"T STAND A CHANCE.

Talented Guy who spends 3,000hrs practicing will  win against a Average Guy that practiced 10,000hrs.

Obviously Talented guy who spend 100hrs practicing will lose to average guy who spend 10k hours practicing.

Ofcourse you can gain extra 5-15yards with better swing. A guy who hits 230 drive starting out is NEVER going to hit 300+yards(unless he's hitting 230 when he's 13 :P ). He can improve his swing and hit about 250 but he has his limit.

Wow, assume and generalize much?