bad course strategy.......it destroys so many rounds for high handicappers....

[JP golf]

Plus 1 stroke missed fairway, plus 1 stroke missed green.......  I think I like that

[billchao]

I disagree with this.  Even high handicappers can cheat.  Take a green complex with water on the right but that is open left.  Say its a par 3, oh, 160 yards.  At a 20 hdcp I hit my 6 iron about 150ish.  Tee it up left, aim left of the left edge, preset weight left, ball back in stance.  You have set yourself up for good contact with the maximum room to miss.  Since you (hopefully) have decreased your chances of hitting it fat, and you are aimed at the left side, the "most likely" miss by far is a slice, thin line drive - which should be pretty good given where your aimed.  Could you put it in the water?  Of course you could.  But you've *significantly* decreased your chances over taking a normal stance from the middle of the tee box aimed at the pin near the water.

I don't think its just "oh well, can't hit it good anyway, better take dead aim and hit driver every time".  That isn't how you get better.  Even if your thoughts are wrong, get used to thinking.  Slowing down to think is a skill that needs to be practiced as much as hitting a club.  If you don't practice thinking about what you are trying to do on a hole you'll never improve the management skill, and you'll struggle even as your game improves.

As a high handicapper, you need to start exploring and developing the relationship between your setup/stance/contact and the shot you see in your head.  It has to start somewhere.  You need to learn what the ball back in your stance does.  I agree its silly to swing normally and do everything else the same and think "i'm gonna hit it here!".  But as you start to experiment you start to learn.  If you don't experiment, you don't learn.

Just because it doesn't work doesn't mean its not helpful.  You are grooving a mental game for when your swing improves.  Even if my 6 iron example, above, is way off, you are still much better off learning to think while out there than just blasting balls around because "what the heck, I'll hit it bad anyways".

Absolutely. Aiming to the left of everything because your miss is right is sound strategy for everyone. It was an overstated generalization on my part, but still I never said good strategy was useless.

Can high handicap players benefit from better course management and learning where safe areas to miss are? Sure.

Will they score better by learning the limitations of their abilities and adjusting their course strategy accordingly? Absolutely.

Will better strategy eliminate fat shots, thin shots, pop ups, hooks, slices, whiffs, skulls, etc.? Don't hold your breath.

If a guy lays up because he can't carry the water hazard, only to hit his third into said hazard anyway, that's not bad strategy causing a high score, that's a bad shot causing a high score. The premise of the thread is that high handicap players post high scores because their shot/club selection is poor. I don't buy it.

[InTheRough]

Absolutely. Aiming to the left of everything because your miss is right is sound strategy for everyone. It was an overstated generalization on my part, but still I never said good strategy was useless.

Can high handicap players benefit from better course management and learning where safe areas to miss are? Sure.

Will they score better by learning the limitations of their abilities and adjusting their course strategy accordingly? Absolutely.

Will better strategy eliminate fat shots, thin shots, pop ups, hooks, slices, whiffs, skulls, etc.? Don't hold your breath.

If a guy lays up because he can't carry the water hazard, only to hit his third into said hazard anyway, that's not bad strategy causing a high score, that's a bad shot causing a high score. The premise of the thread is that high handicap players post high scores because their shot/club selection is poor. I don't buy it.

Agree with this 100%.  I would take it a step further and say that a lot of better players consider higher handicaps to have bad course strategy when in fact they actually just have a different strategy.  The strategy i have generally seen from my friends (and myself at times) is to get the ball as close as possible to the hole because that will give you a much better chance to get the ball on the green on your next shot.  High cappers also generally do not have enough control to count on hitting any club any specific distance at all times so while laying up to give yourself that 100 yard full swing shot from the fairway might work for a better player, the higher handicapper cant count on hitting that next shot exactly 100 yards every time and if they do manage to hit it 100 yards then if they have trouble getting the ball up in the air then it will most likely roll right off the green.  In that case, the high capper would be better off being in the rough with only 40 or 50 yards to go which will generally be a more manageable shot for them (or us I should say). Until a high capper can hit consistent distances and be marginally accurate then they cant really consider playing that same style of course management that better players play

[Dinoma]

Closer is almost always better. You're quite likely wrong about your beliefs. If you hit it to 15 feet from 50 yards that's nearly world class. 25 feet from 100 is also world class.

Your perceptions are probably off. And it's hurting your strategies.

It makes me happy to read this.

I am an avid stat keeper and in almost all cases the following has been proven to be true for my shooting

my bad putt is better than my average chip

my bad chip is better than my average short pitch

my bad short pitch is better than my average pitch

Therefore common sense says that nearer the hole for me is better.

Obviously this doesn't mean to take crazy risks but my scoring is directly related to how quickly I can get near the hole with my first one/two shots. For me the much held concept of the perfect lay up to 100/120 does not hold true, i'm better off rolling it up to 20-60 if i can't go for the green.

[JP golf]

Agree with this 100%.  I would take it a step further and say that a lot of better players consider higher handicaps to have bad course strategy when in fact they actually just have a different strategy.  The strategy i have generally seen from my friends (and myself at times) is to get the ball as close as possible to the hole because that will give you a much better chance to get the ball on the green on your next shot.  High cappers also generally do not have enough control to count on hitting any club any specific distance at all times so while laying up to give yourself that 100 yard full swing shot from the fairway might work for a better player, the higher handicapper cant count on hitting that next shot exactly 100 yards every time and if they do manage to hit it 100 yards then if they have trouble getting the ball up in the air then it will most likely roll right off the green.  In that case, the high capper would be better off being in the rough with only 40 or 50 yards to go which will generally be a more manageable shot for them (or us I should say). Until a high capper can hit consistent distances and be marginally accurate then they cant really consider playing that same style of course management that better players play

Good Point.

[mcanadiens]

The way I look at it is 1) I'm not playing competitively anyway, 2) I'm eventually going to have to learn how to hit a driver and 3) the closer to the hole the better.

Obviously there are situations that are exceptions to this. I know better than to try to carry a water hazard 250 yards. Still, when you are a hack and you are out there hacking, you take risky shots. Nothing ventured. Nothing gained.

[GangGreen]

This is exactly how I feel. I know my driver is, by far, the weakest club in my bag but the only way I'm going to learn to hit it is...well...to actually hit it. Now, having said that, if its a short par 4 (for me that's anything under say 350 yards) then I'll opt for my 3W. Granted, I understand that on say a 400 yard par 4, I probably have a better chance to post a lower score going with a 3W or 5W off the tee and leaving myself a long hybrid aproach to the green but I typically grab my driver on any hole longer then 350-360 yards and try to get in mid-iron range. Has nothing to do with ego, either, but I just feel like if I ultimately want to get better, especailly on longer, more challenging courses, then I have to learn to hit all the clubs in my bag. Sure, more time on the range helps (and I do spend a fair amount of time practicing with it) but in the end there's no substituting actual "game" confidence with any particular club even if it means sacrificing the score card in the short term every now and again to get there.

[Spyder]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyder

I personally feel that everyone should use their driver as much as possible and get as much practice and comfort with it as they can. It's a huge disadvantage to shy away from it and pull a wood or iron from the tee if you're playing a relatively longer (normal) course. If the course is <=6000 yards, you're probably going to be just fine with your 3W or 4 iron off of the tee all day. But, I don't think anyone will deny that playing a course in upwards of 6,500 yards is going to be much more difficult without your driver.

Plus, I think it's more important for golfers aspiring to be better to fix a problem that they have rather than ignore it. When I first started golfing, my father encouraged me to ignore the driver and play consistently with my 3W. If we go out and I hit a few bad shots consecutively with my driver, he'll still say "put that thing away!". In my opinion, that's not how you fix the problem. I'd rather learn to understand what I did wrong on a bad shot so that I can implement a fix as quickly as possible rather than give up significant yardage.

Disclaimer: I may be in the minority with my thinking and I am certainly no professional.

This is exactly how I feel. I know my driver is, by far, the weakest club in my bag but the only way I'm going to learn to hit it is...well...to actually hit it. Now, having said that, if its a short par 4 (for me that's anything under say 350 yards) then I'll opt for my 3W. Granted, I understand that on say a 400 yard par 4, I probably have a better chance to post a lower score going with a 3W or 5W off the tee and leaving myself a long hybrid aproach to the green but I typically grab my driver on any hole longer then 350-360 yards and try to get in mid-iron range. Has nothing to do with ego, either, but I just feel like if I ultimately want to get better, especailly on longer, more challenging courses, then I have to learn to hit all the clubs in my bag. Sure, more time on the range helps (and I do spend a fair amount of time practicing with it) but in the end there's no substituting actual "game" confidence with any particular club even if it means sacrificing the score card in the short term every now and again to get there.

Absolutely. Of course, I did forget to add a "within reason" disclaimer. If you're playing your buddies for cash or something and you're really errant and having a bad day, you should probably err on the side of caution and pull something more reliable and consistent. I see no reason to not use the driver as much as possible in practice rounds though.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

This is exactly how I feel. I know my driver is, by far, the weakest club in my bag but the only way I'm going to learn to hit it is...well...to actually hit it. Now, having said that, if its a short par 4 (for me that's anything under say 350 yards) then I'll opt for my 3W. Granted, I understand that on say a 400 yard par 4, I probably have a better chance to post a lower score going with a 3W or 5W off the tee and leaving myself a long hybrid aproach to the green but I typically grab my driver on any hole longer then 350-360 yards and try to get in mid-iron range. Has nothing to do with ego, either, but I just feel like if I ultimately want to get better, especailly on longer, more challenging courses, then I have to learn to hit all the clubs in my bag. Sure, more time on the range helps (and I do spend a fair amount of time practicing with it) but in the end there's no substituting actual "game" confidence with any particular club even if it means sacrificing the score card in the short term every now and again to get there.

I see how that makes logical sense, but I disagree with you.  First, you aren't getting better with your driver hitting it the fourteen times you are out on the course.  That's a silly reason.  As far as mechanical practice, that nonsense.  It may be the weakest club in your bag, but 14 repetitions is so small in terms of what is necessary to groove an improvement it may as well be zero.  Further, while you may claim driver to be the weakest in your bag, I'm willing to bet that if we actually measured it your 3W wouldn't be far behind.  Not trying to be condescending, just think its an accurate statement.

Second, and in my mind more important, trying to shoot the lowest score possible is a skill.  I know it sounds silly, but its important.  Anytime you "really" step on the course you should try as hard a you can to shoot the lowest score you can.  Sure, people play practice rounds and hit multiple balls etc.. that's not what I mean.  When your trying to shoot for a score you should try to shoot for a score, because that is a skill that needs to be practiced.  One of the hardest things in golf is to stay focused for every shot every round.  You need to practice that skill.

While I realize this sounds somewhat silly, I personally believe its important.  You need to feel pressure.  The only way to do that is to try as hard as you can to shoot as low as you can.  If you just hit driver and don't think about it, you are giving yourself a mental "out".  You can say "yeah, I shot a bad score, but I was working on my driver".  That is significantly mentally easier than trying to stay positive and tough while trying a hard as you can.  Shooting low - "scoring" - is a skill, and it needs to be practiced *Even when* you have poor mechanics, if your ultimate goal is to shoot the lowest scores over time.

I think you'll find that if you get better at staying focused on every shot and concentrating on scoring the very best you can, your mechanics will get better.  You won't drop five off your handicap, but over time this skill is valuable.

IMO, what the OP was trying to say instead of "course management" was "lack of focus" - i.e. "its a tee shot, so I hit driver.  I'm 130, so I hit 8 iron", as opposed to engaging every shot you are about to hit and judging the pros and cons of different strategies.  You may come to the conclusion that you should hit driver every tee - but that conclusion should be part of a focused effort to shoot the lowest score possible.  The post quoted above is, IMO, a poor approach.  *Even if* the 3W doesn't *Actually* matter in terms of scoring better for you right now statistically, the focus on the score and the focus on every shot you hit and getting in the habit of thinking - even if your conclusion is "hit driver" - is very, very important.  I don't think he meant specifically "hit driver less" I think he meant more generally "think more".

Quote:

The way I look at it is 1) I'm not playing competitively anyway, 2) I'm eventually going to have to learn how to hit a driver and 3) the closer to the hole the better.

Its absolutely true that you will have to learn driver eventually.  It is also true you are going to have to learn how to think on a golf course eventually.  Which is better for practicing on the range and which is better for practicing on the course?

Which sets you up better for a tournament/pressure golf situation?  Playing all your rounds with the attitude of "its not competitive anyway" or "I am going to do everything I can to shoot the lowest score possible" ?

The hardest thing to do in golf is to produce your best golf when you most want to produce it.  The only way to get better at that is to experience trying to play your best golf (i.e. shoot your lowest score) as many times as possible.  To practice trying. That is, IMO, a really important component to getting better.

All IMO.

[GangGreen]

I think you've missed my point, what I was attempting to say is I don't think high handicappers like myself should necessarily back away from using the club a particular shot calls for just because they aren't fully proficient with that shot/club (in my case its my driver). Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about taking on stupid risks that are well beyond one's ability but I personally don't think you get better (at anything) by only sticking with those things that your 100% comfortable with. Short term, that may negatively impact my scores and (for me personally) I'm OK with that since I think my overall long-term game will be better than say someone at my same level now who will only tee off with a 7 iron becasue he knows he'll keep it in the fairway.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

I think you've missed my point, what I was attempting to say is I don't think high handicappers like myself should necessarily back away from using the club a particular shot calls for just because they aren't fully proficient with that shot/club (in my case its my driver).

No, I got your point.  I think that is a bad attitude to take on the course.  If hitting 7i is what you think will lead to lowest score, hit it.  If you think driver will lead to your lowest score, hit that.

This idea that you're "getting used" to clubs anywhere but the range is nuts.  Get in the habit that when your on the course your only goal is to shoot the lowest score you possibly can.  That habit is worth way more than any "comfort" your going to get out of hitting the driver 14 extra times a week.

All this other nonsense - "I want to get comfortable with it, I want to get better with it" - are things for the range.

Quote:

Short term, that may negatively impact my scores and (for me personally) I'm OK with that since I think my overall long-term game will be better than say someone at my same level now who will only tee off with a 7 iron becasue he knows he'll keep it in the fairway.

Totally disagree.  If that guy who is teeing off with a 7 iron has spent a year on the course trying to go as low as possible and you've spent a year trying to "get comfortable" or whatever your saying he will crush you.

[inthecup]

Here is a hole on my home course that I struggle with strategy.

It is a short par 4 with trouble left (traps and heather) Trouble right with Traps and trees.  The fairway over the 190 yard line slopes down and to the right.  If you go into the sloping part of the fairway you would be very lucky to be on the fairway and if you were you would have a funky lie.

So here is how I see it.

From the tee if you go left with driver you are in faiway traps and or heather.  Unless you are lucky it is a punch out and if you think you have a shot to the green there is a chance it will go wrong, heather and fairway traps are not too consistent.

If you go right the slope generally brings you under the trees and you are in jail, another punch-out or risky shot.

If you pipe one down the middle it is going to run into the rough on the right, there are lots of divots down there and it is real rough not tightly trimmed blue grass.

If you lay up to before the traps you will have a 180-185 yard approach to a green that slopes severely from front to back and has a ridge running down the middle,  guarded by bunkers on the right and deep rough on the left.

My strategy this year is to lay up with a 5 iron, I can only reach the trap on the right if I really catch it and if I do it is usually right down the middle, but for the most part I end up in the fairway with 185 to go to the center of the green.  Regardless of where the pin is I shoot for the left middle of the green (think no wind).  My miss hit is generally on line but short.  Being short on this hole is the best miss.  Over the back is bad, pitching from rough downhill, traps on right are 7-8 feet deep, rough on the left is OK, not great but OK.

This is narrow, I think 1 out of three I am in jail with the driver.  I feel to limit a high score this is the better strategy.  Most people I play with hit driver.

What do you guys think.

[Lihu]

Here is a hole on my home course that I struggle with strategy. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/98849/] [/URL] It is a short par 4 with trouble left (traps and heather) Trouble right with Traps and trees.  The fairway over the 190 yard line slopes down and to the right.  If you go into the sloping part of the fairway you would be very lucky to be on the fairway and if you were you would have a funky lie.    So here is how I see it. From the tee if you go left with driver you are in faiway traps and or heather.  Unless you are lucky it is a punch out and if you think you have a shot to the green there is a chance it will go wrong, heather and fairway traps are not too consistent. If you go right the slope generally brings you under the trees and you are in jail, another punch-out or risky shot. If you pipe one down the middle it is going to run into the rough on the right, there are lots of divots down there and it is real rough not tightly trimmed blue grass. If you lay up to before the traps you will have a 180-185 yard approach to a green that slopes severely from front to back and has a ridge running down the middle,  guarded by bunkers on the right and deep rough on the left.  My strategy this year is to lay up with a 5 iron, I can only reach the trap on the right if I really catch it and if I do it is usually right down the middle, but for the most part I end up in the fairway with 185 to go to the center of the green.  Regardless of where the pin is I shoot for the left middle of the green (think no wind).  My miss hit is generally on line but short.  Being short on this hole is the best miss.  Over the back is bad, pitching from rough downhill, traps on right are 7-8 feet deep, rough on the left is OK, not great but OK. This is narrow, I think 1 out of three I am in jail with the driver.  I feel to limit a high score this is the better strategy.  Most people I play with hit driver. What do you guys think.

This hole looks like it wants to be played left off the tee. It seems like that gives you the best chance to stick the green. Doesn't look short for a par 4 though if 190 yards gets the first bunker. Looks like 460 to me. My really good drive might make the second cart.

[inthecup]

This hole looks like it wants to be played left off the tee. It seems like that gives you the best chance to stick the green. Doesn't look short for a par 4 though if 190 yards gets the first bunker. Looks like 460 to me. My really good drive might make the second cart.

You are right, a good drive ends by the second cart.  NO way to play from the left, the fairway slopes left to right the second cart is there because his ball is in the rough!

[Lihu]

You are right, a good drive ends by the second cart.  NO way to play from the left, the fairway slopes left to right the second cart is there because his ball is in the rough!

I meant left looking from the tee, or right in reference to the picture.

Off the tee, I would aim for the little fairway/green-side-like bunker on the left.

[Yukari]

No, I got your point.  I think that is a bad attitude to take on the course.  If hitting 7i is what you think will lead to lowest score, hit it.  If you think driver will lead to your lowest score, hit that.

This idea that you're "getting used" to clubs anywhere but the range is nuts.  Get in the habit that when your on the course your only goal is to shoot the lowest score you possibly can.  That habit is worth way more than any "comfort" your going to get out of hitting the driver 14 extra times a week.

All this other nonsense - "I want to get comfortable with it, I want to get better with it" - are things for the range.

Totally disagree.  If that guy who is teeing off with a 7 iron has spent a year on the course trying to go as low as possible and you've spent a year trying to "get comfortable" or whatever your saying he will crush you.

+1

This is absolutely true.  If you can't hit a club consistently, you need more range time to groove your swing.

You shouldn't be "trying to get use to it" on the course when you know you can't hit it consistently.

As to the OP's initial hypothesis, I agree that most high handicappers lose strokes by poor strategy.

Here is a classic example: on a short par 4 (2nd hole at Fossil Trace in Golden, CO), I can drive the green with my 3 wood from the back tee.  But I always use 4 iron to lay up, because it is easier to hit the fairway.  Granted, when I've hit 3 wood a few times and have eagled the hole a couple of times.  But in general, you bring more trouble into play.  So 99% of the time, I hit my 4 iron off the tee.

But most high handicappers hit driver even though they are very inconsistent with their driver.  It would be much better to hit a club they are MOST consistent with, e..g, 5 or even 7 iron off the tee.  The probability of losing the ball or having the ball end up in tall grass (or lost ball) with a driver is >75% for most high handicappers, where as the probability of getting in trouble with 5 or 7 iron may be <30 ~ 40% for that hole.  If you look at only at the probability, it is clear they should be hitting an iron not the driver.  But >90% of the high handicappers pull out their driver on that hole.  That is just a bad strategy that adds at least 1 but most often 2 strokes off the tee.

[GangGreen]

Well, we'll find out soon enough. The "7 iron guy" is actually a co-worker of mine and we're playing together again at a local charity outing next Tuesday at one of the more challenging courses either one of us will get to play in our area this year (Philadelphia Cricket Club for the local forum posters). We played together last year around this time, he with his trusted 7 iron and me with my whole bag (flaws and all). I can't say for certain, but knowing him, I'm also pretty sure he's maintained that strategy over the last year so I can pretty much guarantee he'll have that 7 iron mentaility again this year while I've spent a fair amount of time over the last year (on and off the course) getting "comfortable" with all my clubs. Now it may not turn out to be a fair fight in the end, I took the game back up again last year after a long layoff (15+ years) and we were roughtly playing at the same level when we played last. Since then I've put a lot of time into it (lessons, playing, and range time) and honestly I have no idea how much time, if any, he's put into improving/expanding his game. Certainly I have a loooooooooong way to go before my game even approaches the "mildly sucks" level, and you may turn out to be right but I like my chances for Tuesday. We'll keep you posted.

[newtogolf]

No, I got your point.  I think that is a bad attitude to take on the course.  If hitting 7i is what you think will lead to lowest score, hit it.  If you think driver will lead to your lowest score, hit that.

This idea that you're "getting used" to clubs anywhere but the range is nuts.  Get in the habit that when your on the course your only goal is to shoot the lowest score you possibly can.  That habit is worth way more than any "comfort" your going to get out of hitting the driver 14 extra times a week.

All this other nonsense - "I want to get comfortable with it, I want to get better with it" - are things for the range.

Totally disagree.  If that guy who is teeing off with a 7 iron has spent a year on the course trying to go as low as possible and you've spent a year trying to "get comfortable" or whatever your saying he will crush you.

If the goal is to post your lowest score and one is very inconsistent with the diver (almost never on fairway, lots of OOB and penalties) it makes sense to leave it at home or in the bag.  The question is what level of consistency  warrants hitting driver if the goal is shooting the lowest score.

If I hit 7i off the tee on every hole I am making it almost impossible to shoot less than bogey / double bogey on every hole except Par 3's so you have to consider the risk reward of leaving the driver in the bag.  Also some people hit their driver better at the range than on the course and for those people gaining confidence with it on the course is a way to overcome the mental part of it.