What happened to etiquette in golf?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Funk Fred you just don't get it...My post was just FUN....It was sarcasm directed straight at you. The basic rule of playing thru.....It only happens when the lead group makes the offer. If you as the following GROUP of one asks to play thru, that is the problem. That is where your arrogance depicts no observance of the common decency of golf etiquette.

Huh????  There is nothing wrong with asking to play through if you are being held up and there is open space in front of the group ahead of you.  Not everyone understands that when there is room ahead, a faster group should be allowed through, and they will never learn if someone doesn't step up and make a point of asking them.  Then too, some players are just clueless and don't care... they need to be educated too.

Bottom line - ask away, but do it in a nice way and most players will have no problem with it.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by funkyfred72

Well if you are from Sacramento as it says below your name.....accrding to GolfNow.com I could get 258 tee times as a single between August 10th and 13th in the Sacramento area at various golf courses.

By Jove, you're right!  I don't use Golfnow.com much because the deals aren't that great, but I never noticed you could book a single on it. Strange that you can get a single tee time at so many courses through Golfnow but if you go to those courses' web sites and try to book through their online systems they don't give you that option - nor does the discount site I usually use (Birdiebug.com). I've never been able to get a tee time as a single when I call any of those courses' pro shops either.

But anyway, I stand corrected... thanks for pointing that out.

[Yukari]

Agree 100%.

People seem to forget that it is the option of the group in front to ask you to play through or to join them.  A group behind (in this case a single player) has NO RIGHT to ask to play through or to join the group in front.  That is also golf etiquette!

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Funk Fred you just don't get it...My post was just FUN....It was sarcasm directed straight at you. The basic rule of playing thru.....It only happens when the lead group makes the offer. If you as the following GROUP of one asks to play thru, that is the problem. That is where your arrogance depicts no observance of the common decency of golf etiquette.

[FLOG4]

Keep this in mind regarding the discount sites that offer teetimes.....And I use them often...Golfnow, EZlinks, Standby, eBay.....The courses do not receive this income directly.  You pay Golfnow and all the others.  They in turn have agreements regarding sharing this revenue.  So don't be surprised if you aren't greeted with open arms.  The course has their regulars and their full paying patrons and they will give them preferred treatment.  Golfnow sells single teetimes as they are only about revenue.  If the course doesn't offer single teetimes directly, the management on the grounds may not be of the same mindframe as those cutting the deal with the discount houses. Just an FYI.  Anyway you look at it, playing as a single is not appealing to any club.  But in a financial malaise like we have right now, they need any revenue. I have never had a teetime as a single.  I just show up. I enquire as to the playing field and try to join up with someone, unless the playing field is wide open.  Then I know I'll be able to knockout 27-36 in the time it takes to play 18.  Skip around, circle back, play two balls, whatever. To just play 1 thru 18 as a single would be quite boring.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Keep this in mind regarding the discount sites that offer teetimes.....And I use them often...Golfnow, EZlinks, Standby, eBay.....The courses do not receive this income directly.  You pay Golfnow and all the others.  They in turn have agreements regarding sharing this revenue.  So don't be surprised if you aren't greeted with open arms.  The course has their regulars and their full paying patrons and they will give them preferred treatment.  Golfnow sells single teetimes as they are only about revenue.  If the course doesn't offer single teetimes directly, the management on the grounds may not be of the same mindframe as those cutting the deal with the discount houses. Just an FYI.  Anyway you look at it, playing as a single is not appealing to any club.  But in a financial malaise like we have right now, they need any revenue.

Agreed. Golfnow is probably banking on the fact that at least one other golfer will book the same time - then they can get the time from the course as a twosome. Of course most of the time the person checking you in at the counter couldn't care less about how much money the course is making off of you, but it's true that it's human nature for other golfers to resent someone who's golfing more cheaply - in fact Birdiebug's site even has a note requesting you not discuss the rate you got with other golfers at the course. (Birdiebug has particularly good deals because you pay at the time of booking.)

Originally Posted by FLOG4

I have never had a teetime as a single.  I just show up. I enquire as to the playing field and try to join up with someone, unless the playing field is wide open.  Then I know I'll be able to knockout 27-36 in the time it takes to play 18.  Skip around, circle back, play two balls, whatever. To just play 1 thru 18 as a single would be quite boring.

Yep, that's how I play as a single too - I show up and they slot me in when I can. (And btw, playing 1-18 as a single to me is golf heaven - most of my regular playing partners are kinda slow.......)

[bradsul]

That's actually not the case for GolfNow in Canada (or Ontario anyway).  They usually have a few 'online specials' where you pay the full rate online, but for the vast majority of rounds your credit card just gets charged the online service fee (usually ~ $9 for 4 players).  You pay for the actual round at the course (taxes and all) when you check in.

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Keep this in mind regarding the discount sites that offer teetimes.....And I use them often...Golfnow, EZlinks, Standby, eBay.....The courses do not receive this income directly.  You pay Golfnow and all the others.  They in turn have agreements regarding sharing this revenue.  So don't be surprised if you aren't greeted with open arms.  The course has their regulars and their full paying patrons and they will give them preferred treatment.  Golfnow sells single teetimes as they are only about revenue.  If the course doesn't offer single teetimes directly, the management on the grounds may not be of the same mindframe as those cutting the deal with the discount houses. Just an FYI.  Anyway you look at it, playing as a single is not appealing to any club.  But in a financial malaise like we have right now, they need any revenue. I have never had a teetime as a single.  I just show up. I enquire as to the playing field and try to join up with someone, unless the playing field is wide open.  Then I know I'll be able to knockout 27-36 in the time it takes to play 18.  Skip around, circle back, play two balls, whatever. To just play 1 thru 18 as a single would be quite boring.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by bradsul

That's actually not the case for GolfNow in Canada (or Ontario anyway).  They usually have a few 'online specials' where you pay the full rate online, but for the vast majority of rounds your credit card just gets charged the online service fee (usually ~ $9 for 4 players).  You pay for the actual round at the course (taxes and all) when you check in

True for Golnow here in California as well, but the courses are still losing money by giving the discounted rate, so I think FLOG4's post still has some merit.

[Paradox]

one vastly overlooked rule of etiquette....LEAVE GOLF BALLS THAT AREN'T YOURS ALONE.  Make sure no one is playing around you before you go snagging every ball you see that isn't your own.

[NorthShoreGolf]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Of course most of the time the person checking you in at the counter couldn't care less about how much money the course is making off of you, but it's true that it's human nature for other golfers to resent someone who's golfing more cheaply

Really? If I got paired up with somebody who paid less than me because they booked through a discounter I'd want that information. It's not like they discriminated.

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Keep this in mind regarding the discount sites that offer teetimes.....And I use them often...Golfnow, EZlinks, Standby, eBay.....The courses do not receive this income directly.  You pay Golfnow and all the others.  They in turn have agreements regarding sharing this revenue.  So don't be surprised if you aren't greeted with open arms.  The course has their regulars and their full paying patrons and they will give them preferred treatment.  Golfnow sells single teetimes as they are only about revenue.  If the course doesn't offer single teetimes directly, the management on the grounds may not be of the same mindframe as those cutting the deal with the discount houses. Just an FYI.  Anyway you look at it, playing as a single is not appealing to any club.

No matter what I paid I expect to get the same treatment as anyone else. This would be highly unprofessional behavior of management/crew/whomever to treat people worse because the booked through a discounter. If this is policy the course should not be working with discounters, and I would not be back at any price.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Yukari

Agree 100%.

People seem to forget that it is the option of the group in front to ask you to play through or to join them.  A group behind (in this case a single player) has NO RIGHT to ask to play through or to join the group in front.  That is also golf etiquette!

Show me where you get this from?  I've played golf for 35 years and when the circumstances warrant, I won't hesitate to ask.  I don't consider it a right to play through when the course is crowded, but I do consider it my right to ask if it isn't crowded and the group ahead lacks the etiquette to invite me to do so.  What am I hurting by asking?  I will add that I almost never play as a single, and I don't expect to play through a half dozen groups on the rare occasions when I am alone.  But playing as two or even three we have been in this situation where one slow group is holding up progress, and If the group which is holding us up is not asking us to play through, either through ignorance or just because they are jerks, we wont hesitate to ask politely.  Most of the time they will gladly let us through rather than be pressed all the way around the course.  If they refuse, then so be it, I'll wait until I see the ranger and have him take it up with them.

[bplewis24]

I've had people hit "into" our group...meaning not having the etiquette to ensure that we are well outside of their range.  That can be dealt with in a number of ways, including waiting til a 2nd time to protest or confront them about it.  But if anybody ever deliberately hit at me...twice, there would be a serious problem out there on that course.  Golf etiquette and customs be damned.

Brandon

[bradsul]

The courses (again at least here where I've talked to the owners/managers) authorize the rates.  I imagine it comes down to getting a guaranteed booking for some money rather than taking a chance on an empty tee slot.  They definitely make money otherwise why would they do it?  Anyway we're pretty OT, better not continue this discussion here.  Cheers!

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

True for Golnow here in California as well, but the courses are still losing money by giving the discounted rate, so I think FLOG4's post still has some merit.

[DaSportsGuy]

Originally Posted by Paradox

one vastly overlooked rule of etiquette....LEAVE GOLF BALLS THAT AREN'T YOURS ALONE.  Make sure no one is playing around you before you go snagging every ball you see that isn't your own.

^YES. So many people do that and it drives me crazy. If it's not theirs' it must be a "lost ball".

Reminded me of when a buddy of mine hit his tee shot OB into someones fenced in back yard. They were in their pool swimming and he drove the cart over to the fence while I was sitting right next to him and asked if they could get his ball for him. They did but I was like wtf. If you hit your ball in someones back yard it's theirs'. If it's fenced in at least. I was like "dude, you've gotta be kidding me." I just wanted to disappear from the cart when he started driving over because I knew he was gonna do it.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Show me where you get this from?  I've played golf for 35 years and when the circumstances warrant, I won't hesitate to ask.  I don't consider it a right to play through when the course is crowded, but I do consider it my right to ask if it isn't crowded and the group ahead lacks the etiquette to invite me to do so.  What am I hurting by asking?  I will add that I almost never play as a single, and I don't expect to play through a half dozen groups on the rare occasions when I am alone.  But playing as two or even three we have been in this situation where one slow group is holding up progress, and If the group which is holding us up is not asking us to play through, either through ignorance or just because they are jerks, we wont hesitate to ask politely.  Most of the time they will gladly let us through rather than be pressed all the way around the course.  If they refuse, then so be it, I'll wait until I see the ranger and have him take it up with them.

This...there is no rule that says who asks who to play through.  The ONLY reason a group shouldn't let a single play through is if there is nowhere for them to go.  Otherwise why would you have a problem with getting someone off your back so you don't feel rushed and like someone is constantly waiting on you?

[FLOG4]

When you teeoff at 8:20  and the 8:30 teetime is a single.....And the course is packed....What's the expectation for the group of one at 8:30?  Same scenario, why is 8:20 in front of 8:30?  Their position on the course is 8:20....just behind 8:10 and in front of 8:30.  Estimated playtimes---1 is 2:30......2 is 3:00....3 is 3:30....and 4 is 4:00.... From the very onset of a round of golf the group of less than 4 should be pressing the group ahead. [all things being equal]  Etiquette as quoted by the USGA offers that the lead group should allow the following group to play thru if they are out of place. The first right of refusal lies with the lead group. Will the group that is out of place catch up?  Will they always be slow? Will they allow a group thru and then pick up their pace to be slowed down by a group allowed thru? Playing thru is a pain for everyone involved.  At times it comes off seamlessly, at others it's a clusterf***.  NAME JUST ONE TIME YOU SAW A PLAYTHRU ON ANY TOUR OR AMATEUR TOURNAMENT. Doesn't happen. Name how many times the slower than snail tour player was penalized for slow play....Maybe twice in my life.

I have been playing for 44 years.  I have seen every imaginable sequence of events happen surrounding this subject. Where people lose sight is that regardless of your number...group of 1,2,3 or 4 you hold a certain slot allotted by your teetime. You do not automatically have any rights to overtake the group ahead because you can play faster. Given scenarios of the course is wide open and the group is well out of place, then playthru. Otherwise it is appropriate that your group play in it's position without unduly effecting the groups for and aft.

[Grumpter]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

When you teeoff at 8:20  and the 8:30 teetime is a single.....And the course is packed....What's the expectation for the group of one at 8:30?  Same scenario, why is 8:20 in front of 8:30?

For the group at 8:20 all they have to do is keep pace with the group in front of them. If they fall behind by 1.5 or more holes then the should let the single play through. My expectation if I was the 8:30 is I either hope there is a 2some or 3some in the few groups behind me or I am going to be practicing a lot of putts, chips etc. and still waiting a lot.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by FLOG4

When you teeoff at 8:20  and the 8:30 teetime is a single.....And the course is packed....What's the expectation for the group of one at 8:30?  Same scenario, why is 8:20 in front of 8:30?  Their position on the course is 8:20....just behind 8:10 and in front of 8:30.  Estimated playtimes---1 is 2:30......2 is 3:00....3 is 3:30....and 4 is 4:00.... From the very onset of a round of golf the group of less than 4 should be pressing the group ahead. [all things being equal]  Etiquette as quoted by the USGA offers that the lead group should allow the following group to play thru if they are out of place. The first right of refusal lies with the lead group. Will the group that is out of place catch up?  Will they always be slow? Will they allow a group thru and then pick up their pace to be slowed down by a group allowed thru? Playing thru is a pain for everyone involved.  At times it comes off seamlessly, at others it's a clusterf***.  NAME JUST ONE TIME YOU SAW A PLAYTHRU ON ANY TOUR OR AMATEUR TOURNAMENT. Doesn't happen. Name how many times the slower than snail tour player was penalized for slow play....Maybe twice in my life.

I have been playing for 44 years.  I have seen every imaginable sequence of events happen surrounding this subject. Where people lose sight is that regardless of your number...group of 1,2,3 or 4 you hold a certain slot allotted by your teetime. You do not automatically have any rights to overtake the group ahead because you can play faster. Given scenarios of the course is wide open and the group is well out of place, then playthru. Otherwise it is appropriate that your group play in it's position without unduly effecting the groups for and aft.

Couple of comments on this.  One - Tournament golf is a different animal than a typical weekend outing with your fourball.  You have a slot assigned by the competition committee and only that committee can authorize a change in the playing order.  For that reason there is no playing through or passing other groups unless it has been approved by that committee.

Two - You are only correct in your assumption of position IF the course is full and IF all groups are maintaining pace with the group in front of them.  I work as a starter so I have some experience in this area.  If I sent out first thing in the morning two groups of 2,  one single, one group of 3, then a fourball, then another group of 2, there is no reason in the world for the fourball not to let the twosome behind them play through, as that fourball is not likely to be able to keep pace with the groups ahead of them.  It doesn't matter that the fourball is maintaining it's proper pace on the course - it only matters that the twosome behind is waiting on every shot and there are holes open in front of the fourball because the groups in front of them are able to play faster.  If there were 5 fourballs in front of that twosome, then no, I would not expect that they should play through, because that just creates a moving log jam on the course.  But if there is space on the course, then etiquette, and most course policies, dictate that the twosome should be allowed to pass.

You appear to be the type of player that this discussion is aimed at.  You seem to feel that your fourball has the right of position over anyone else on the course as long as you are playing on time.  That just isn't so.  All factors have to be considered - it's not just about you.

[ghalfaire]

I think etiquette on the golf course went to the same place as common courtesy went in society a large. But that is a grill room topic.