Can we all finally agree that Tiger is done?

[TN94z]

Originally Posted by iacas

A) "You see that on Tour" a lot more than you realize. Usually it's by the guys missing the cut (go figure), and rarely is it by the guys near the lead. Dustin Johnson practically shanked a ball OB during the British Open this year. Hunter Mahan chunked a 70-yard wedge shot 20 yards at Firestone. Phil practically whiffed hitting out of the rough at Winged Foot a few times.

B) Where was Williams' "immediate effect" when Scott MCed at the U.S. Open? On a course on which Woods had won, too. Doesn't fit your theory so you leave it out? Scott nearly won the Masters this year too, and that was without Williams on the bag. Perhaps the guy's just having a slightly better year. He won once. It's not like he's setting records.

Highly debatable. Tiger could beat you with left-handed clubs built for an 8-year-old kid. Skill matters too. Phil's swing is far from being "good" technically but he makes it work.

Tiger never really made "Sunday charges." He won very few tournaments coming from behind. He was almost always in the last group either because he was close (and the guy crumbled) or because he was leading.

Says the guy who started a Tiger thread.

Yep.

But I suppose people should stop talking about Ali or Babe Ruth or Joe Montana, too. :-P Difference of course being they're actually retired. :-P

Pretty much word for word what I was thinking.

I find it absolutely HILARIOUS that a poster starts a thread about Tiger and replies within his own thread that everyone should stop talking about Tiger!!!  I mean, that takes the cake!

[deronsizemore]

I really don't think Tiger is done. We'll never see the dominant Tiger of the year 2000 simply because the competition has caught up with him, but he's not done.

The guy just hasn't played or practiced enough to get back into form. I don't care who you are, you cannot just sit on the couch for a few months with no practice or playing and walk into a tournament and expect to dominate.

When Tiger switched to Haney, he went nearly two years and only won one tournament if I'm not mistaken? It takes time to make swing changes alone, and he's trying to do it while coming back from an injury.

Tiger is just too good to be finished. But, time will tell.

[majorchamp]

Agreed Deron. Now granted, Tiger might just walk away from the game one day if ppl don't stop giving him sh*t :), though he kind of brings it on himself.

I was thinking about this the other day. People want to see him be a "changed" person and he said he would change and be a better father, better player, better role model etc.. and many will claim he has "not" done that since his famous press conference.

But he hasn't been lighting up scoreboards either or giving himself or his fans a ton of confidence in the tournaments he has played since that time.

I reckon (wow I went hick there), once he starts playing consistently and actually meeting a criteria level he is satisfied with, we "will" see a brighter side of Tiger from a persona standpoint. It's hard to be friendly, super nice, etc.. (when that is NOT your normal public persona) while your playing horrible by your standards, and really the PGA Tour standards.

I say give him this fall/winter, and see how he fares come next Spring with hopefully a still healed knee and more focused practice time.

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I really don't think Tiger is done. We'll never see the dominant Tiger of the year 2000 simply because the competition has caught up with him, but he's not done.

The guy just hasn't played or practiced enough to get back into form. I don't care who you are, you cannot just sit on the couch for a few months with no practice or playing and walk into a tournament and expect to dominate.

When Tiger switched to Haney, he went nearly two years and only won one tournament if I'm not mistaken? It takes time to make swing changes alone, and he's trying to do it while coming back from an injury.

Tiger is just too good to be finished. But, time will tell.

[cdnglf]

Quote:

When Tiger switched to Haney, he went nearly two years and only won one tournament if I'm not mistaken? It takes time to make swing changes alone, and he's trying to do it while coming back from an injury.

It wasn't quite that bad - he won a single event in 2004, in the middle of a period of about 15 months during which he only won once. (That span included two off-seasons.)

In general, I agree with your sentiments though. Anyone who's willing to completely write off Tiger so soon is woefully unaware of the history of golf. I don't think he's "done", but I don't expect him to match Jack's record either. Snead's record? I don't know.... but it still seems within reach, even if his skills are permanently diminished from their 2005-8 level.

[Chilli Dipper]

Originally Posted by cdnglf

Given how often Tiger has talked about needing to play more rounds in competition, taking a full 6 months off from competitive golf seems very unlikely. After all, there's only so much practice one can do.

He's already committed to play in Australia, and he'll probably be in the Presidents Cup. Perhaps he'll play another event or two overseas around that time. After that, presumably he'll play more-or-less the same schedule he's played for years, starting with Torrey Pines at the end of January.

The Aussie Open and Presidents Cup are still three months away. Tiger just spent three months on hiatus from tournament golf; he shouldn't spend the next three months on the sidelines. He should be going around the world, playing golf, and taking steps to repair his public image.

Tiger should enter the Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles in Scotland in two weeks (August 25-28); apparently, the organizers have already extended him an invitation. The tournament is being played on the PGA Centenary Course that will host the 2014 Ryder Cup matches, and due to its placement on the European Tour schedule opposite the first FedEx Cup playoff event, no top American player has seen the course set up for competition. Tiger would figure to be part of the 2014 Ryder Cup team, so he should enter the event to lend some promotion for Gleneagles, the European Tour, and the PGA of America.

The Omega European Masters is being held in Switzerland one week later (Sept. 1-4). The event is popular enough with European Tour players to skip the FedEx Cup in favor of it, and as a co-sanctioned event with the Asian Tour since 2009, it draws a strong international field. Tiger has never played there; in brief, he should.

Since the European Tour goes into a lull after the European Masters, Tiger should next head to Japan for the Asia-Pacific Panasonic Open , held the same week as the Tour Championship (Sept. 22-25). Like the European Masters, the event is co-sanctioned with the Asian Tour, so the best players in Japan, Korea, and elsewhere in Asia (plus some Aussies and New Zealanders) will be there. It's a new event (first held in 2008), but as only joint Japan-Asia event on the calendar, it has the potential to be a premier event in the Eastern Hemisphere. Tiger's appearance would be a great boost for the tournament's reputation.

Tiger should next extend an olive branch to the late-season tournaments that were the sites of his first two professional victories: the Justin Timberlake Shriners Hospitals for Children Open (Sept. 29-Oct. 2) and the Children's Miracle Network Classic (Oct. 20-23). It's been a long time since he's played in Las Vegas, and he hasn't played at Walt Disney World (where he was once a regular) since the schedule realignment. Plus, you know what sort of things would make people lighten up to Tiger again? Taking time out of his busy schedule to be with sick kids while raising money for children's hospitals!

The WGC-HSBC Champions in China runs from Nov. 3-6. Tiger has played in four of the five editions of the event (he was recovering from knee surgery in 2008), but he currently is not eligible for this year's tournament. The Johnnie Walker Championship, the Omega European Masters, and the Asia-Pacific Panasonic Open winners each receive automatic entry into the Champions; so does the top two players in the World Golf Ranking top 25 not otherwise exempt before October 17. Tiger is currently ranked 33rd in the world, therefore he should want to play his best golf in the next couple of months to either win those events, or earn enough world ranking points to return to the top 25.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by Chilli Dipper

The Aussie Open and Presidents Cup are still three months away. Tiger just spent three months on hiatus from tournament golf; he shouldn't spend the next three months on the sidelines. He should be going around the world, playing golf, and taking steps to repair his public image.

Tiger  should enter the Johnnie Walker Championship at Gleneagles in Scotland in two weeks (August 25-28); apparently, the organizers have already extended him an invitation. The tournament is being played on the PGA Centenary Course that will host the 2014 Ryder Cup matches, and due to its placement on the European Tour schedule opposite the first FedEx Cup playoff event, no top American player has seen the course set up for competition. Tiger would figure to be part of the 2014 Ryder Cup team, so he should enter the event to lend some promotion for Gleneagles, the European Tour, and the PGA of America.

The Omega European Masters is being held in Switzerland one week later (Sept. 1-4). The event is popular enough with European Tour players to skip the FedEx Cup in favor of it, and as a co-sanctioned event with the Asian Tour since 2009, it draws a strong international field. Tiger has never played there; in brief, he should.

Since the European Tour goes into a lull after the European Masters, Tiger should next head to Japan for the Asia-Pacific Panasonic Open, held the same week as the Tour Championship (Sept. 22-25). Like the European Masters, the event is co-sanctioned with the Asian Tour, so the best players in Japan, Korea, and elsewhere in Asia (plus some Aussies and New Zealanders) will be there. It's a new event (first held in 2008), but as only joint Japan-Asia event on the calendar, it has the potential to be a premier event in the Eastern Hemisphere. Tiger's appearance would be a great boost for the tournament's reputation.

Tiger should next extend an olive branch to the late-season tournaments that were the sites of his first two professional victories: the Justin Timberlake Shriners Hospitals for Children Open (Sept. 29-Oct. 2) and the Children's Miracle Network Classic (Oct. 20-23). It's been a long time since he's played in Las Vegas, and he hasn't played at Walt Disney World (where he was once a regular) since the schedule realignment. Plus, you know what sort of things would make people lighten up to Tiger again? Taking time out of his busy schedule to be with sick kids while raising money for children's hospitals!

The WGC-HSBC Champions in China runs from Nov. 3-6. Tiger has played in four of the five editions of the event (he was recovering from knee surgery in 2008), but he currently is not eligible for this year's tournament. The Johnnie Walker Championship, the Omega European Masters, and the Asia-Pacific Panasonic Open winners each receive automatic entry into the Champions; so does the top two players in the World Golf Ranking top 25 not otherwise exempt before October 17. Tiger is currently ranked 33rd in the world, therefore he should want to play his best golf in the next couple of months to either win those events, or earn enough world ranking points to return to the top 25.

I agree entirely, but isn't Tiger playing in Notah Begay's tourney at the end of August?

[muggs]

A) "You see that on Tour" a lot more than you realize. Usually it's by the guys missing the cut (go figure), and rarely is it by the guys near the lead. Dustin Johnson practically shanked a ball OB during the British Open this year. Hunter Mahan chunked a 70-yard wedge shot 20 yards at Firestone. Phil practically whiffed hitting out of the rough at Winged Foot a few times.

B) Where was Williams' "immediate effect" when Scott MCed at the U.S. Open? On a course on which Woods had won, too. Doesn't fit your theory so you leave it out? Scott nearly won the Masters this year too, and that was without Williams on the bag. Perhaps the guy's just having a slightly better year. He won once . It's not like he's setting records.

Nope. You don't see that bad of a swing on tour...not ever. Haha, yeah dude, guys aren't going to make solid contact out of US Open rough from time to time. Guys may chunk a high-lofted club on a rare occassion as well. DJ's hook was due to the pressure. There's no pressue on you when you're +12 for the day. I'll say it again (I'm typing slow this time so you understand), guys don't snap hook fairway shots 60 yards on Tour.

Originally Posted by muggs

This is a guy trying to rework what has been one of the best swings the world has ever seen. This is a guy who is lipping out putts he used to center. This is a guy whose knee is failing him.

Highly debatable. Tiger could beat you with left-handed clubs built for an 8-year-old kid. Skill matters too. Phil's swing is far from being "good" technically but he makes it work.

Well, my handicap index isn't "pro" and I don't know everything either, so you're probably right.

Originally Posted by muggs

Like I said, will he piece together a few good tournaments here and there? Sure. If the knee holds up...we may see his name appear occassionally near the top of the leaderboard, but the days of the old Tiger making his Sunday charge are over.

Tiger never really made "Sunday charges." He won very few tournaments coming from behind. He was almost always in the last group either because he was close (and the guy crumbled) or because he was leading.

Split hairs some more, please.

Originally Posted by muggs

Just look at these boards...it's still 80% Tiger talk.

Says the guy who started a Tiger thread.

A thread started to encourage less Tiger talk in the future.

Originally Posted by Kieran123

People are gonna talk about Tiger forever - you have to get over it. He was the greatest player of this generation and fell far - of course people are gonna talk about it. Now he;s trying to make a come back and changing a lot of things so of course people are gonna talk about it.

Yep.

But I suppose people should stop talking about Ali or Babe Ruth or Joe Montana, too. :-P Difference of course being they're actually retired. :-P

The difference is, during the middle of their respective careers, neither man had such a fall from grace. Montana didn't start throwing 35 INTs a season, Ruth didn't hit .127 with 2 jacks and 12 RBIs.... I'm sure there will be plenty of Tiger references in the future, especially 40 yeras from now when people turn to their children and say "there was a man named Tiger, who could have been the greatest of all-time."

[majorchamp]

A thread started to encourage less Tiger talk in the future.

You and I both know that isn't realistic and in the world we are in now, plus the desire to see Tiger still make a comback...won't ever happen. People like talking about him too much, whether its bad or good.

I even said to my father during the PGA Championship, "Tiger sure does know how to keep us talking". Whether he is playing good or bad, there is always a reason to talk about him.

[TN94z]

Really?

Disregard the fire effect

And this happens from one of the younger golfers that we should be paying attention to instead of Tiger

And we can't forget Rory's hook at the Master

Just because you don't see all of the bad shots on television.....don't mean they don't happen.  I watched the St.Jude in my area live and saw my fair share of really bad shots...comparitively speaking

[Kieran123]

Don't forget this beauty. I laughed so hard when I saw this on T.V - it's nice to see pros do what I do sometimes

[iacas]

Originally Posted by muggs

Nope. You don't see that bad of a swing on tour...not ever. Haha, yeah dude, guys aren't going to make solid contact out of US Open rough from time to time. Guys may chunk a high-lofted club on a rare occassion as well. DJ's hook was due to the pressure. There's no pressue on you when you're +12 for the day. I'll say it again (I'm typing slow this time so you understand), guys don't snap hook fairway shots 60 yards on Tour.

And with that, you've demonstrated that you have no idea what goes on at a PGA Tour event. Those shots happen far more often than you believe. Just because you don't see them on weekend coverage doesn't mean they don't happen. And DJ didn't hit a hook. And nobody being discussed was +12 for the day.

Originally Posted by muggs

Split hairs some more, please.

You defined the "Tiger of old" in a way that was, in a word, wrong. That's not really splitting hairs.

Originally Posted by muggs

A thread started to encourage less Tiger talk in the future.

Yeah? How's that working' out for ya?

Originally Posted by muggs

The difference is, during the middle of their respective careers, neither man had such a fall from grace. Montana didn't start throwing 35 INTs a season, Ruth didn't hit .127 with 2 jacks and 12 RBIs.... I'm sure there will be plenty of Tiger references in the future, especially 40 yeras from now when people turn to their children and say "there was a man named Tiger, who could have been the greatest of all-time."

Point remains: Tiger's still playing, and despite your claims, he's most likely not "done." Tiger's still playing, those guys aren't. Of course people are going to talk about him. They still talk about Joe Montana, and he's been retired for quite awhile. They still talk about Jack. Or Hogan. Or Palmer or Jones or Sarazen. They're gonna keep talking about Tiger, particularly while he's still playing. To think otherwise or to insist on anything different is, well, stupid. It shows a lack of understanding about how the world works. You may not like the reality that is, but it is the reality we've got.

[majorchamp]

Yea, but as the above poster mentioned "They are in a high pressure situation and not 12 over par without a care in the world "

Yea, all pro's hit bad shots, even 60 yard hooks...or 106 yard drives, or chunks, or skulls, etc... it happens.

Being a collegiate player myself, I know how quickly a hot round can be obliterated in a millisecond from a bad shot. Yes, mental toughness is required and you have to get through it and turn it around, but sometimes that bad shot really does start a domino effect you simply can't stop.  I once rounded off 4 birdies in a row, followed by a quadrupal bogey, followed by 2 more birdies, LOL

Originally Posted by TN94z

Really?

Disregard the fire effect

And this happens from one of the younger golfers that we should be paying attention to instead of Tiger

And we can't forget Rory's hook at the Master

Just because you don't see all of the bad shots on television.....don't mean they don't happen.  I watched the St.Jude in my area live and saw my fair share of really bad shots...comparitively speaking

[ghalfaire]

I believe whether Tiger is done or not is up to Tiger.  He's certainly got the talent and if the injury is fixed there is no reason why Tiger can't return to the top.  As good as the young guys are they have a lot to prove yet in my mind before I accept them as Tiger killers.  But it up to Tiger as you have to wonder just how often he will want to do the work necessary to recover his game.  The only thing that would drive him at this time is Jack's major record.  Other than that he doesn't have much to prove to himself or us.  So time will tell but I'm not convinced he is done as I think he wants that record.

[TN94z]

Originally Posted by majorchamp

Yea, but as the above poster mentioned "They are in a high pressure situation and not 12 over par without a care in the world "

Yea, all pro's hit bad shots, even 60 yard hooks...or 106 yard drives, or chunks, or skulls, etc... it happens.

Being a collegiate player myself, I know how quickly a hot round can be obliterated in a millisecond from a bad shot. Yes, mental toughness is required and you have to get through it and turn it around, but sometimes that bad shot really does start a domino effect you simply can't stop.  I once rounded off 4 birdies in a row, followed by a quadrupal bogey, followed by 2 more birdies, LOL

Well, since you like to get technical about it....the original poster said

Nope. You don't see that bad of a swing on tour...not ever.

....I'm no scientist, but I think EVER means any time....pressure or not.

There may not be tournament pressure on Tiger, but there is a TON of pressure on Tiger from people like the original poster. Tiger has more pressure on him from the media and people just waiting for him to do bad than Dustin Johnson, Rory, or Jason Day have had in a tournament. Give me a break!  You can spin anything to make yourself feel right, but the bottom line is Pro's other than Tiger hit bad shots on tour...YES THEY DO!!!

[muggs]

To the top...

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by muggs

To the top...

Why?

[bjfox10]

If the younger guys are able to get our attention we won't have to give it to them they will just take it.

[RichF]

Watching yesterday, it was quite strange to see him as he was.

I feel bad for Woods today, but he's he'll convince himself he's not 'done' - but he has to get a very big win: a WGC, The Players and/or a Major to be considered 'back'.

Of course, he'll come back and try again of course but you can tell he just doesn't have it anymore.