Large Rock Ruling - The Tiger Woods Boulder Incident with Gallery Help

[deasy55]

I'm missing something here. Do you mean a divot as in some idiot hit an iron off the green and took a big chunk of earth with him (In which case...what an a$$hole) or do you mean a divot as in a ball mark (in which case he could/should have repaired it and had no excuses about missing the putt)?

I'm hoping it's the latter because the first option makes me cry

Originally Posted by Littlebigman

I played with a friend of mine who had an extremely brutal divot in front of about a 6 foot par putt.  He hit the putt, it hit the divot, he missed the putt.  He told me he was going to score himself a par, instead I told him to hit the putt from the same distance, two inches to the left, he missed that putt also, with no divot.

[Zeph]

I'm missing something here. Do you mean a divot as in some idiot hit an iron off the green and took a big chunk of earth with him (In which case...what an a$$hole)

Yep. Seen it at least twice.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by laconic517

What if a rock is used as a yardage marker, say 150 yards?  I've played several courses that have done something like that.  Would have to be allowed to move your ball I'd assume.

Source of much angst each year a buddy trip as one course had boulders for 150 yard markers on the edge of the fairways. By local rule, there was free relief. Bad idea to use rocks as markers IMHO.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by luu5

If it is decorative then it could be obstruction and he is entitled of free relief. But there could be a local rule stating that these are integral part of course and then no free relief is possible.

Quote:

That is not correct.

The rock may well be decorative, as are waterfalls, trees and bunkers. Doesn't mean it isn't part of the course.

He is not entitled to a drop unless the rock is within a garden or designated area where a player gets free relief.

The answer depends whether the rock/boulder has been worked on somehow (by a person). For example, if there was a carving on it (by the committee/course management/entrepreneur), or the rock has been even slightly shaped with a tool. If this is the case the rock would be an obstruction ('man made') and a free relief is granted.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by deasy55

I'm missing something here. Do you mean a divot as in some idiot hit an iron off the green and took a big chunk of earth with him

Originally Posted by Zeph

Yep. Seen it at least twice.

In case there really is a divot hole on the green it should be marked as GUR, so any player should be granted a free relief even when on the putting line. No big thing (except the a**hole needs to be battered...).

[ghalfaire]

FOURPUTT; I wasn't implying that what you said the decision says was not so.  But this is the only case I know of where a player can receive help from someone that isn't his caddie or partner.  Maybe there are other cases and I'm just not aware of them.  I guess I also find it inconsistent that you can improve your line of play (I was there and that is what Tiger did) by moving a natural obstruction. To me it seems inconsistent with the philosophy of the rules.  But I'm now on board now and understand the decision.  Always a good thing to know the rules and one of the reasons I hang around TST is because I learn some useful information.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

FOURPUTT; I wasn't implying that what you said the decision says was not so.  But this is the only case I know of where a player can receive help from someone that isn't his caddie or partner.  Maybe there are other cases and I'm just not aware of them.  I guess I also find it inconsistent that you can improve your line of play (I was there and that is what Tiger did) by moving a natural obstruction. To me it seems inconsistent with the philosophy of the rules.  But I'm now on board now and understand the decision.  Always a good thing to know the rules and one of the reasons I hang around TST is because I learn some useful information.

I think the special privileges you have with your caddy are receiving advice and having him tote your clubs around.  For example, anyone can assist you in locating your ball, giving you factual information (scores, distances between fixed points on the course, etc), and moving boulders.

I'm inclined to agree with your initial reaction on this one, though---it was the same as mine.  While the logic is completely consistent, I agree that it doesn't sit so well with the philosophy.  On the other hand, it's such a rare event that people still talk about the same instance years later, so it's pretty much moot.

[Zeph]

The answer depends whether the rock/boulder has been worked on somehow (by a person). For example, if there was a carving on it (by the committee/course management/entrepreneur), or the rock has been even slightly shaped with a tool. If this is the case the rock would be an obstruction ('man made') and a free relief is granted.

Which rule states this?

[tomvk77]

For sure, free drop is not an option.

It's not build or places there by human, so it's

a part off the course! Only way to get away with

it, is the Tiger option, get a few people together

and move the rock. And keep notice off slowplay,

that could cost one shot penalty more haha

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Quote:

The answer depends whether the rock/boulder has been worked on somehow (by a person). For example, if there was a carving on it (by the committee/course management/entrepreneur), or the rock has been even slightly shaped with a tool. If this is the case the rock would be an obstruction ('man made') and a free relief is granted.

Originally Posted by Zeph

Which rule states this?

Comes from Definitions:

'Obstructions
An “obstruction’’ is anything artificial,.....'

As soon as a natural object has been reformed in any way by man it is an obstruction. It goes as far as a tree cut by a lumberjack with a chainsaw is an obstruction (this has been verified from R&A;). See also Dec 24/6, 24/7 and 24/11.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Comes from Definitions:

'Obstructions

An “obstruction’’ is anything artificial,.....'

As soon as a natural object has been reformed in any way by man it is an obstruction. It goes as far as a tree cut by a lumberjack with a chainsaw is an obstruction (this has been verified from R&A;). See also Dec 24/6, 24/7 and 24/11.

As usual, it's not even quite *that* simple.  After all, a banana peel is a loose impediment, even if there's no banana trees for three thousand miles.  It has to qualify as manufacturing or construction for the conversion.  Grass cuttings also are "reformed" by man and would not be an obstruction.  Both these and a tree that was merely cut down in preparation for removal would be ground under repair, or loose impediments if intended to be left behind.

[Shorty]

Comes from Definitions:

'Obstructions
An “obstruction’’ is anything artificial,.....'

As soon as a natural object has been reformed in any way by man it is an obstruction. It goes as far as a tree cut by a lumberjack with a chainsaw is an obstruction (this has been verified from R&A;). See also Dec 24/6, 24/7 and 24/11.

This is not correct. We are not talking about sculptures. We are talking about rocks. I can assure you that a large rock cleaved in two by a hydraulic chisel does not cease to be a natural object. You do not get relief from a rock unless it is in a designated area. You say that a natural object "reformed in any way" is an obstruction. Simply not true.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Shorty

This is not correct. We are not talking about sculptures.

We are talking about rocks. I can assure you that a large rock cleaved in two by a hydraulic chisel does not cease to be a natural object.

You do not get relief from a rock unless it is in a designated area.

You say that a natural object "reformed in any way" is an obstruction.

Simply not true.

This also goes to a decorative rock to which nothing has been done except to cut it out of the quarry.  While it may have been cut from a larger mass using tools or heavy machinery, it doesn't lose it's status as a loose impediment.  If the stone has been sculpted, carved into a tee marker or the like, or incorporated as a part of a construction, then it has become an obstruction.

[WWBDD]

Originally Posted by supermac

thanks for all the responses. My friends arguement is that the rock was put there by man and is decorative, so he gets a free drop. does anyone what is the rule number to show him that what he says is untrue? thanks.

The entire course was put there by man ... and is arguably decorative.

[RyderJ]

You know what I would have done to that rock? Taken the straps off BOTH our bags, fastened them to my cart and hauled arse....lol . Seriously though....you should have hit your friend with your 9 iron and told him to shut up and hit the ball...no free drop.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by supermac

thanks for all the responses. My friends arguement is that the rock was put there by man and is decorative, so he gets a free drop. does anyone what is the rule number to show him that what he says is untrue? thanks.

No - that's not the way it works. He has invented this "rule" or heard some other fool talk about rocks and "decorative" things or things "made or altered by man". All ridiculous.

The onus is on him to show YOU a rule that says he's entitled to a free drop.  There isn't one.

Show me a rule that says that all rocks which are predominantly granite weighing between 135 and 155 KG are NOT ones that allow you a free drop when you're within a clublength of them. That's his logic.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

As usual, it's not even quite *that* simple.  After all, a banana peel is a loose impediment, even if there's no banana trees for three thousand miles.  It has to qualify as manufacturing or construction for the conversion.  Grass cuttings also are "reformed" by man and would not be an obstruction.  Both these and a tree that was merely cut down in preparation for removal would be ground under repair, or loose impediments if intended to be left behind.

I can understand your confusion but banana peel has nothing to do with this (see dec 23/4). Dec 23/1 describes the issue but does not cover it completely. As I wrote, R&A; has confirmed that a tree purposely cut down by a chainsaw is an obstruction. You are free to contact them or USGA to confirm this. And if you think a bit it is easy to understand why grass cuttings are not obstructions but loose impediments.

Wooden chips that are used on the course for paths or to cover roots of planted trees are obstructions as well, they are used for a specific purpose even though they are side products of a manufacturing process, man made nevertheless.

As far as rocks are concerned fourputt wrote more clearly what I had started. For example, a large rock where a text 'Welcome to XXX Golf Club' has been carved is an obstruction. This makes sense as this rock is there for purpose and has been reworked by man as well.

Sometimes it is not easy to define the status of an object and the Committee should be alert with any issues that may create confusion.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

I can understand your confusion but banana peel has nothing to do with this (see dec 23/4). Dec 23/1 describes the issue but does not cover it completely. As I wrote, R&A; has confirmed that a tree purposely cut down by a chainsaw is an obstruction. You are free to contact them or USGA to confirm this. And if you think a bit it is easy to understand why grass cuttings are not obstructions but loose impediments.

Wooden chips that are used on the course for paths or to cover roots of planted trees are obstructions as well, they are used for a specific purpose even though they are side products of a manufacturing process, man made nevertheless.

As far as rocks are concerned fourputt wrote more clearly what I had started. For example, a large rock where a text 'Welcome to XXX Golf Club' has been carved is an obstruction. This makes sense as this rock is there for purpose and has been reworked by man as well.

Sometimes it is not easy to define the status of an object and the Committee should be alert with any issues that may create confusion.

I have seen a tree in the process of removal marked, along with area around it, as ground under repair, not as an obstruction.  That sounds more reasonable to me as that tree has not been "manufactured", nor is it artificial, and that is a necessary qualification for an obstruction.