Pitching/Chipping From Hard Pan

[Mr. Desmond]

It depends on your wedge.

I go with iacas and mvmac's solution -- weight on lead foot, shaft perpendicular to ground or very slightly forward, and use the bounce - if I hit ground slightly before the ball, the bounce will glide it in, increasing the margin for error.

But I also have an Edel wedge with a lowered leading edge and lots of bounce towards mid-back of the sole, about 18 degrees of bounce in my LW and 14 in my SW.

With my old wedge, off hardpan with no or little grass this would be a tough shot because of the higher leading edge of the wedge - I'd have to move down to a lower leading edge club with less bounce, a Gap Wedge, or a SW and move my hands forward to move the leading edge lower, and remove my bounce. in other words - it was hit and hope.

When you find wedges that allow you to do your job without compromise the game gets easier.

[iacas]

To further what @Mr. Desmond said, our pitching technique helps to shallow the AoA. You can use the "chitch" or "pip" technique if you want a lower running shot too. Both our pitching technique and our pipping technique shallow the AoA.

 

[joekelly]

OP, i see your HC is under 10 so you have seen many shot making options during your golf life. For me too, i have tried many shots esp around the green seeking to get close to the hole. Which shot will permit me the most confidence in getting close? If i am unsure of the bouncing pitch shot, i won't use it. If i think the 8i, run up, will give me the best result, that's my choice. Where is your most confident shot?  Watch the British Open on some links course and see all the run ups and few pitches,,,  why so?

[billchao]

It depends on your wedge.

I go with iacas and mvmac's solution -- weight on lead foot, shaft perpendicular to ground or very slightly forward, and use the bounce - if I hit ground slightly before the ball, the bounce will glide it in, increasing the margin for error.

But I also have an Edel wedge with a lowered leading edge and lots of bounce towards mid-back of the sole, about 18 degrees of bounce in my LW and 14 in my SW.

With my old wedge, off hardpan with no or little grass this would be a tough shot because of the higher leading edge of the wedge - I'd have to move down to a lower leading edge club with less bounce, a Gap Wedge, or a SW and move my hands forward to move the leading edge lower, and remove my bounce. in other words - it was hit and hope.

When you find wedges that allow you to do your job without compromise the game gets easier.

I just want to add that I have a Cleveland CG14 56° 2 Dot wedge (I believe it's 14° bounce, also) and I can pitch it off concrete. So, yes, with the right technique, it can be done without awesome wedges.

[mvmac]

from hard pan Im not a bounce lover . i rather do the bump/run option.

If the turf was soft then i would consider lob/chip technique with the bounce

otherwise i like to deloft the blade and bump from 30 yards out.

If im closer and its possible to use a putter, I would consider that too

To further what @Mr. Desmond said, our pitching technique helps to shallow the AoA. You can use the "chitch" or "pip" technique if you want a lower running shot too. Both our pitching technique and our pipping technique shallow the AoA.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/70998/chipping-with-a-putting-method

Yes best IMO to "bump and run" it with a technique that shallows the AoA, just going to be a lot more consistent with the contact and distance control.  Check out that the thread Erik posted dchoye.

[Mr. Desmond]

I just want to add that I have a Cleveland CG14 56° 2 Dot wedge (I believe it's 14° bounce, also) and I can pitch it off concrete. So, yes, with the right technique, it can be done without awesome wedges.

As I said, it also depends on the wedge (sole grind).

[iacas]

A video I filmed today because of this thread:

[uno6518]

This is a very foreign idea to me, as someone who tries (somewhat successfully) to use forward weight and forward shaft lean to make sure the leading edge gets underneath the ball.  How do avoid bouncing the blade of the club into the equator of the ball?

I can relate to this. I had spent a lot of this last year working on my chips with the hands forward/leading edge technique, especially for hard pan lies. A few weeks ago, I read through the great threads here about engaging the bounce more, even with these types of lies--very foreign to me. Taking this to my practice sessions, I was amazed because my mind wanted to believe that there was no way I could avoid skulling the ball using this technique, but after a few hours of practice the ball contact became very repeatable and a very different shot (higher and much softer) than I was used to playing. It got really fun to play with variations based on how much bounce and where the ball was in my stance.

I took this to the course last weekend for the first time, and even on the hard lies, I still found a lot of success with it. It was exciting to be able to not have the ball run out so much--definitely was not used to this as a high handicapper. Pretty much all of my issues were distance related, which will just take time getting used to backswing length and ball position.

As for what Ernest said about more forgiving, I can think of two shots from my round that perfectly illustrated this. Both were inside 20 yards and were hard pan lies. On the shot where I engaged the bounce, I could feel that I struck the ground much too early. The club still got through, popped the ball up--though not as high as normal and with less spin--and got me on the green a little further than I had hoped for but I still a chance to putt. A few holes later, I tried to play that distance as a low runner, so I went shaft forward/leading edge, and again, hit the ground early. This time, the club stuck right into the ground, and I was lucky to even get a piece of the ball, and had to play another off of that lie again for my next shot. Small sample size, but those two shots will go a long ways for giving me confidence to use more bounce, even for the shots that are the subject here.

[mvmac]

As for what Ernest said about more forgiving, I can think of two shots from my round that perfectly illustrated this. Both were inside 20 yards and were hard pan lies. On the shot where I engaged the bounce, I could feel that I struck the ground much too early. The club still got through, popped the ball up--though not as high as normal and with less spin--and got me on the green a little further than I had hoped for but I still a chance to putt.

Welcome to the site and thanks for sharing, the bounce is your friend

A few holes later, I tried to play that distance as a low runner, so I went shaft forward/leading edge, and again, hit the ground early. This time, the club stuck right into the ground, and I was lucky to even get a piece of the ball, and had to play another off of that lie again for my next shot. Small sample size, but those two shots will go a long ways for giving me confidence to use more bounce, even for the shots that are the subject here.

For lower trajectory, running shots, check out this thread

http://thesandtrap.com/t/70998/chipping-with-a-putting-method

[inthehole]

Just to clear up the definition ... when I think of hard pan, I think of DIRT.     Are we talking hard fairways with at least some grass under the ball (even though its hard baked grass) or hardly any grass / hardpan ?    For the rare occasion that I find myself on pretty much dirt, that's when I use the leading edge - no bounce for those shots.     Curious how you guys play the shots where there's hardly any grass under the ball ?

[iacas]

Just to clear up the definition ... when I think of hard pan, I think of DIRT.     Are we talking hard fairways with at least some grass under the ball (even though its hard baked grass) or hardly any grass / hardpan ?    For the rare occasion that I find myself on pretty much dirt, that's when I use the leading edge - no bounce for those shots.     Curious how you guys play the shots where there's hardly any grass under the ball ?

Did you see the video I posted?

http://thesandtrap.com/t/53479/pitching-chipping-from-hard-pan/18#post_919587

That's a thin layer of stimp 9 carpet (about a quarter inch) total sitting directly top of concrete. It's not forgiving. You can "use the bounce" off concrete, a wood plank, etc. I've demonstrated it. Dave has as well. Mike could if he hasn't already.

These next two sentences are important:

The trick to playing off hardpan regardless of what method you choose is to have a shallow AoA.

It's easier for most to have a shallow AoA with a shaft that's almost vertical than it is with the shaft leaning ahead.

[mvmac]

Curious how you guys play the shots where there's hardly any grass under the ball ?

Yeah you would want to use the bounce.  Remember bounce doesn't mean the sole "bounces" off the ground, it allows the club to glide through the turf, whether that's hardpan, tight fairways, rough or sand.  Using the leading edge is only going to dig the club in the ground.

You can "use the bounce" off concrete, a wood plank, etc. I've demonstrated it. Dave has as well. Mike could if he hasn't already.

I have a video of myself pitching it off a putting green, obviously not hardpan but demonstrating shallow AoA procedure.   Maybe I'll take an old wedge out today and hit some off the cart path

[inthehole]

^ THx ... I guess it just requires nerve enough to try it.    I've just bounced the club so many times behind the ball & wind up blading it off hard lies ... it seems like it requires a perfect ball strike without any fat-ness.       Probably no more precise than a leading edge shot though ... I will try it

[RayG]

ummm, can I put in my 2 cents? what's between you and the hole? If it's a trap or water or any other trouble, then you will need to get the ball airborne. If not, why try a shot MOST people have no clue how to do? If it's a nice clean line to the hole, you can use any number of hybrids or fairway woods to run it up to the green. Granted, this takes practice as well, but your misses wont be thinned over the green or stubbed 10 feet away. My latest go to trouble club for getting under trees from hardpan is my TM R11s 3wd. Choke down a bit, and it's basically a long putter stroke. No real difference from using a 5wd or 7wd from that grabby fringe to get the ball up and rolling on top. Just offering an alternative to a shot that is difficult enough for a pro to get right, much less an average weekender. Even though it's nice to have the shot in the bag, if you don't have the confidence to pull it off, you need to consider a possible alternative that might leave a better result if it isn't pulled off perfectly.

[mvmac]

^ THx ... I guess it just requires nerve enough to try it.    I've just bounced the club so many times behind the ball & wind up blading it off hard lies ... it seems like it requires a perfect ball strike without any fat-ness.       Probably no more precise than a leading edge shot though ... I will try it

Keep it simple.  Set up with slightly more weight left, soft arms, neutral handle, turn the chest back and through brushing the grass.

[mvmac]

15-20 yard pitch from dirt, ball almost spun back.  Using the bounce so the sole can glide through the ground.  Sorry for it being so dark, I remembered this thread as I was about to leave

Note the lack of shaft lean, like in Erik's example, club head passes the hands.

[iacas]

More here:

[Darkfrog]

I really struggle with short game shots off bare lies (dry/thin grass or dirt). I tend to either hit them thin or fat, and when contact is solid they always fly too far. 
 

Is there any technique difference to hitting these shots well, or is it just a matter of practicing off this type of turf?