Playing by the rules........ Is there one here who can cast the first stone?

[walk18]

Let me start by saying I am by no means a well read golfer when it comes to the usga and r&a; rule books.  However, I do think that I am fairly well versed in the day to day rules that come up during an average round of golf.  Some years ago while on a golf trip to Myrtle Beach with some friends, friends not near my skill level, we were trying to hash out our bets the night before our first round.  My friends were asking me to give ridiculious amounts of strokes to them.  I was a near scratch player and my friends claimed to shoot 85 to 90 on average.  Finally after hours of negotiating I agreed to give each of them 35 shots on 18 holes on the condition that we played strictly by the rules.  This was a mistake on my part as far as friendships went.  I began on the first tee box by calling a penalty on one of them for teeing off in front of the tee markers, another was hit for searching for his golf ball in a hazard with using his club, another for raking his footprints behind as he walked to his ball in the bunker (testing the sand).  I made them hit 3 from the tee when they hit it out of bounds instead of dropping where it went ob, like they normally would.  when they hit it in the water I made them drop at point of entry or the drop area, not over the water as they did.  By the turn they had not only conceeded their bets, it seemed for a time my friendship as well.  So 2 questions here:  First, Do you think that if the average golfer (85 to 105 shooters) played strictly by the rules that he would enjoy the game as much.  Secondly, instead of asking if you have ever fudged a rule or unwittingly broken one, I like to know if there is anyone out there who believes they have never breached a rule of golf.  I myself am not without sin and cannot cast the first stone.  I thank you all in advance for your responses.

if you saw your friend about to tee off in front of the markers, why didn't you say something before he hit?

[ejimsmith]

the only rule i have no problem with modifying is re-teeing when hitting ob.   i consider that related to the rule where you can give yourself a drop if your ball is next to a rattle snake.  at nearly any course that's crowded, it would be dangerous for your health to go back to the tee and make them wait further for you to tee off again.  i doubt i could make a decent tee shot under those circumstances.  furthermore, i don't care how much of a rule nazi you are.. unless its a tourney, i better not see you come back to the tee box that i'm waiting on, so you can rehit... just play it like a lateral hazard, take a stroke and move on.

[Grumpter]

Originally Posted by ejimsmith

the only rule i have no problem with modifying is re-teeing when hitting ob.   i consider that related to the rule where you can give yourself a drop if your ball is next to a rattle snake.  at nearly any course that's crowded, it would be dangerous for your health to go back to the tee and make them wait further for you to tee off again.  i doubt i could make a decent tee shot under those circumstances.  furthermore, i don't care how much of a rule nazi you are.. unless its a tourney, i better not see you come back to the tee box that i'm waiting on, so you can rehit... just play it like a lateral hazard, take a stroke and move on.

Meh, if the group in front of you is playing at a resonable speed and it is the very rare occasion where one of the players has to come back to re-tee why get your panties in a wad? They will be out of your way quickly and won't cost you any extra total time for your round.

Earlier this year I played with some guys I didn't know who said my tee shot hit a tree and came straight down. When we got up to tree and looked around it became obvious the ball had cleared the fence to the left of the tree so I went back to re-tee. Shit happens, no need to be uptight if the group is playing at a reasonable pace.

[visiondr]

Well, after hearing all the pros-cons, I have to agree with the rules "Nazis". I hereby pledge to play by the USGA rules of Golf. I might as well learn them and play correctly. That way, when I start to post scores for the purposes of handicapping, they'll be accurate (not necessarily great, but correct).

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

This is what I don't get.  I have no idea why somone gets so upset about how someone else plays or if they think they shot a better score than them.

I really don't care what anyone else shoots, and can't figure out why I should.  It doesn't bother me if my playing partner has an 85 on the card, when it was probably a 95.

They can put whatever they want, its ok.  I just get annoyed when somebody says, "I shot 85" and it's bullshit.  I mean if you are gonna play for a score and especially if you are going to post it (which a lot of these guys do) do it the right way.  I don't understand the point of keeping a score if you don't do it the right way...

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Well, what about my basketball comparison.  In a pick-up game, many rules are not followed.  The ball is not inbounded properly.  Free throws are not shot.  No one is calling illegal defenses like in the NBA.  No one is disqualifying themselves after fouling out.   We don't use a clock.  Often we even score completely differently (2's are 1, and 3's are 2) Etc.

We modify other sports knowingly ignoring many rules to play them for fun.

I guess I can handle getting my 'chops busted.'  I know the truth, so could care less what someone else thinks.

Golf isn't basketball.  Period.  There are no comparisons.

Originally Posted by Gresh24

I see what you're saying.  But, do you think it is acceptable, then, if all players agree in golf to play by modified, or less than all of the, rules?  Like if me and my playing partners agree we can "improve our lies", or drop at point of entry OB?

I also know what you're saying about "bragging rights".  I just don't get worked up over someone "thinking" they are better than me or having bragging rights.  20 years ago, probably a different story...  Now I'm more concerned about my game and improving my game.  I'm out there against the course, not winning bragging rights.

There is a rule against players agreeing to modify or waive particular rules.

The great thing about golf is that it is set up so that we can play the SAME game we see played by the pros on tv.  The rule book is right there and your scores are basically saying that you got around the course in that many strokes following the rules.  If you want to modify the rules such as dropping at an entry point of an OB shot or whatever, then just don't keep a score at all because if you don't follow the rules than it's a meaningless number anyways.

[RFetters]

Our group handles an ob possible by announcing a provisional ball, and that usually prevents going back to the tee.  Only once in a while will we be surprised that a ball goes ob, and in that event we usually dont go back to retee,,just hitting 4 near where the original ball went out is ok with our group.  Nearly all other rules are USGA but we are amateurs and there are always specific circumstances where we might not know the rules but since we dont, no one cares.

The rules of golf are tremendously complex, and proof of that is just watching pros, and how many rulings are needed during tournaments.

Knowing and following the USGA rules is really important when involved in tournament play, or when money is involved or when maintaining a handicap.  For many, they dont play serious golf, and if not following the rules makes it more fun for the golfer, so be it.

[newtogolf]

If none of you are going have your scores apply to your official handicap then you can implement any rules you want to.

Originally Posted by Gresh24

I see what you're saying.  But, do you think it is acceptable, then, if all players agree in golf to play by modified, or less than all of the, rules?  Like if me and my playing partners agree we can "improve our lies", or drop at point of entry OB?

I also know what you're saying about "bragging rights".  I just don't get worked up over someone "thinking" they are better than me or having bragging rights.  20 years ago, probably a different story...  Now I'm more concerned about my game and improving my game.  I'm out there against the course, not winning bragging rights.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by RFetters

The rules of golf are tremendously complex, and proof of that is just watching pros, and how many rulings are needed during tournaments.

The rules of golf are not complex at all.

The only times you see pros getting rulings is when they are trying to get (an unfair) advantage and are just trying their luck with a rules official or want confirmation of something they already know and don't want to make a costly error.

They get rulings far too often.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by RFetters

Knowing and following the USGA rules is really important when involved in tournament play, or when money is involved or when maintaining a handicap.  For many, they dont play serious golf, and if not following the rules makes it more fun for the golfer, so be it.

That's fine, but you don't score if you aren't playing by the rules.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by bogey joe

Let me start by saying I am by no means a well read golfer when it comes to the usga and r&a; rule books.  However, I do think that I am fairly well versed in the day to day rules that come up during an average round of golf.  Some years ago while on a golf trip to Myrtle Beach with some friends, friends not near my skill level, we were trying to hash out our bets the night before our first round.  My friends were asking me to give ridiculious amounts of strokes to them.  I was a near scratch player and my friends claimed to shoot 85 to 90 on average.  Finally after hours of negotiating I agreed to give each of them 35 shots on 18 holes on the condition that we played strictly by the rules.  This was a mistake on my part as far as friendships went.  I began on the first tee box by calling a penalty on one of them for teeing off in front of the tee markers, another was hit for searching for his golf ball in a hazard with using his club, another for raking his footprints behind as he walked to his ball in the bunker (testing the sand).  I made them hit 3 from the tee when they hit it out of bounds instead of dropping where it went ob, like they normally would.  when they hit it in the water I made them drop at point of entry or the drop area, not over the water as they did.  By the turn they had not only conceeded their bets, it seemed for a time my friendship as well.  So 2 questions here:  First, Do you think that if the average golfer (85 to 105 shooters) played strictly by the rules that he would enjoy the game as much.  Secondly, instead of asking if you have ever fudged a rule or unwittingly broken one, I like to know if there is anyone out there who believes they have never breached a rule of golf.  I myself am not without sin and cannot cast the first stone.  I thank you all in advance for your responses.

It would be absurd to think that anyone who ever played the game had never breached a rule.  However, a conscientious golfer will try to follow the penalty procedure as best he knows how when he does breach a rule.  There is no crime in breaching a rule, only in ignoring the breach once it has occurred.  Since I started playing the game seriously I have made a point of playing this way.  There are times and places where I breach a rule, knowing that I'm wrong, but in a situation where pace of play and a crowded course precludes following the correct procedure (such as returning to the previous spot to play stroke and distance).  I would never do such a thing in a competition or with a wager on the line, but in a casual round with only handicap posting to count, it is allowed to enter an estimated score for up to 5 holes in an 18 hole round.  In such a case, it would be seem to be unreasonable to hold up the players behind you just to perfectly follow the rules so you can honestly write down your double or triple bogey on the card.  It rarely comes up since I and most of the people I play with hit a provisional ball if there is any chance of of such a need.

So no I can't throw the first stone, but I still play every round as closely as possible to the ideal ( and I do know the rules quite well).

Originally Posted by GJBenn85

Wonder if there is a rule about shoving the head of a club up someone's *** for ruining a casual round of golf?  I hate the concept of pairing out of fear of being paired with a rule Nazi such as youself.  In casual golf, worry about your own game.  Only in competition or a bet do you have the right to ruin my round of golf if I do not happen to follow the rules 100%.

You are getting too upset by his quite proper approach to the game.  He won't likely ever be playing with you so you can relax.  If your game is ruined by following the rules, then you aren't really playing golf in the first place.  If you play with me, I won't care what game you play - that's your choice.  We won't be wagering or competing unless you do play by the rules, so I'm not particularly concerned about it.

Originally Posted by trickymicky69

Is that not a loose obstruction or moveable impediment?

Um.... before you preach you need to learn the terminology.  Neither of the things you mention is a part of the Rules of Golf.  The rules define loose impediments, and movable or immovable obstructions.  An imbedded stone or root is none of those. (If you were joking, then ha-ha.  But next time please use the smilies provided so that we can tell )

[trickymicky69]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It would be absurd to think that anyone who ever played the game had never breached a rule.  However, a conscientious golfer will try to follow the penalty procedure as best he knows how when he does breach a rule.  There is no crime in breaching a rule, only in ignoring the breach once it has occurred.  Since I started playing the game seriously I have made a point of playing this way.  There are times and places where I breach a rule, knowing that I'm wrong, but in a situation where pace of play and a crowded course precludes following the correct procedure (such as returning to the previous spot to play stroke and distance).  I would never do such a thing in a competition or with a wager on the line, but in a casual round with only handicap posting to count, it is allowed to enter an estimated score for up to 5 holes in an 18 hole round.  In such a case, it would be seem to be unreasonable to hold up the players behind you just to perfectly follow the rules so you can honestly write down your double or triple bogey on the card.  It rarely comes up since I and most of the people I play with hit a provisional ball if there is any chance of of such a need.

So no I can't throw the first stone, but I still play every round as closely as possible to the ideal ( and I do know the rules quite well).

You are getting too upset by his quite proper approach to the game.  He won't likely ever be playing with you so you can relax.  If your game is ruined by following the rules, then you aren't really playing golf in the first place.  If you play with me, I won't care what game you play - that's your choice.  We won't be wagering or competing unless you do play by the rules, so I'm not particularly concerned about it.

Um.... before you preach you need to learn the terminology.  Neither of the things you mention is a part of the Rules of Golf.  The rules define loose impediments, and movable or immovable obstructions.  An imbedded stone or root is none of those. (If you were joking, then ha-ha.  But next time please use the smilies provided so that we can tell  )

Sorry my English sarcasm musn't of translated well from the brain to the keyboard........

[permarkc]

Before keeping a legit handicap, I would take the occasional foot wedge or mulligan. But as my wife is my caddie, as I became consistently in the 80's, she cut out all the "liberties" I took with the ball. My scores went breifly back to the 90's, but seemingly very rapidly came back to the 80's and below. I think because I knew she wouldnt allow any infractions, I played better. So, in my opinion, if your strictly out to have fun, play your game any way you want. Throw the damn thing out of a sand trap if you want, but once you start keeping a handicap and a true record of your golf ability, you must play by the rules. Otherwise, it just fantasy....

And with that said, a true 5.4 handicap sometimes really does suck, as I still have the occasional high 80's round....but senility comes from the knowledge that if you shot a perfect round every time out, they would call you Tiger, or Rory, or Phil, or Bubba, or............And I've seen all of them hit in the mid to high 80's......

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

They can put whatever they want, its ok.  I just get annoyed when somebody says, "I shot 85" and it's bullshit.  I mean if you are gonna play for a score and especially if you are going to post it (which a lot of these guys do) do it the right way.  I don't understand the point of keeping a score if you don't do it the right way...

Golf isn't basketball.  Period.  There are no comparisons.

There is a rule against players agreeing to modify or waive particular rules.

The great thing about golf is that it is set up so that we can play the SAME game we see played by the pros on tv.  The rule book is right there and your scores are basically saying that you got around the course in that many strokes following the rules.  If you want to modify the rules such as dropping at an entry point of an OB shot or whatever, then just don't keep a score at all because if you don't follow the rules than it's a meaningless number anyways.

Well, I'm not posting any scores.  And, again, could care less what anyone else does.  Won't it hurt a player posting incorrect low scores?  If you are actually using your handicap, lying about it being lower will hurt you right?

I know basketball and golf don't compare, but the fact that people alter rules of other sports all the time to play at a casual level is a relevant one.

Scores aren't meaningless to those playing.  They may be to you, but they still have meaning and guage golfers ability and progress.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

If none of you are going have your scores apply to your official handicap then you can implement any rules you want to.

I guess I'm in a different boat than most on here.  I only know one person (that I play with) that actually has an official handicap.  Not that I don't know and play with some good golfers, but no one has an official handicap.  I think we have a pretty good understanding of the game and play by most of the rules, but we do allow some rules to be broken/modified.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by GJBenn85

I've been playing only 8 months.  If from day one I had followed the rules 100%, I would have given up the game after a month.  With each round I play, I try to adhere to the rules based on my knowledge of them (I am still learning all of the rules) but it sure does not prevent me and my playing partner(s) from taking a mulligan or two.  What encourages me to learn the rules and adhere to them is the fact that because I am now penalizing myself for things I would have never penalized myself for in the beginning, my scores are still on a downward trend indicating my game is actually improving.

I occasionally catch my playing partners breaking a rule, either knowingly or unknowingly, but do not say anything since it is casual and frankly I do not care unless something is on the line (which there never has been to date).

Wonder if there is a rule about shoving the head of a club up someone's *** for ruining a casual round of golf?  I hate the concept of pairing out of fear of being paired with a rule Nazi such as youself.  In casual golf, worry about your own game.  Only in competition or a bet do you have the right to ruin my round of golf if I do not happen to follow the rules 100%.

lol Personally, I would give you -2 strokes for that one. I feel the same exact way. I was in a group before where a guy kept randomly messing with another guy, telling him where he would be penalized and how many strokes. After listening to this for 3 holes I told him to shut the hell up, because I was on the verge of throwing him in a pond. I reminded him that nobody asked him to recite the USGA, no money was on the line and quite frankly, he was annoying the living F out of me. The other 2 in the group just laughed and had that "thanks man" look on their faces. The guy finished the front with us and played the back by himself.

Don't offer rulings to someone in a casual round unless you're in a bet or they ask for it. Chances are, the other guy is picturing his 60° upside your head.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

Well, I'm not posting any scores.  And, again, could care less what anyone else does.  Won't it hurt a player posting incorrect low scores?  If you are actually using your handicap, lying about it being lower will hurt you right?

I know basketball and golf don't compare, but the fact that people alter rules of other sports all the time to play at a casual level is a relevant one.

Scores aren't meaningless to those playing.  They may be to you, but they still have meaning and guage golfers ability and progress.

The scores are meaningless if you don't follow the rules because they don't gauge progress in regards to anything.  One day you might have a 90 and not have any OB shots, then the next day an 85 but you had a few OBs and took drops instead of re-teeing.  Did you really improve on the day you shot the 85... maybe, but who knows as one day certain rules apply and one day they don't (or at least one day you didn't have the opportunity to cheat whereas one day you did).

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

This is what I don't get.  I have no idea why somone gets so upset about how someone else plays or if they think they shot a better score than them.

I really don't care what anyone else shoots, and can't figure out why I should.  It doesn't bother me if my playing partner has an 85 on the card, when it was probably a 95.

Well here is a problem if you don't keep an honest handicap.   I had entered a tournament at my club a few years back and my partner got ill at the last minute.  So the Pro shop (with my OK) found me a partner  who was a new member and had a handicap of about 12 (I think I was a 14 at the time).  Well this fellow was certainly not a 12 and probably was closer to a 18-20 handicap.  So I was a little annoyed when I discovered he had an ego handicap (didn't turn in his "bad" rounds because they "were not typical") as the entry fees for these isn't insignificant (at least not for me).  So if you're just out having fun I don't care how you play, but if you're going to play in tournaments you ought to stick to the rules of golf and record all your rounds and do it correctly.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

Well here is a problem if you don't keep an honest handicap.   I had entered a tournament at my club a few years back and my partner got ill at the last minute.  So the Pro shop (with my OK) found me a partner  who was a new member and had a handicap of about 12 (I think I was a 14 at the time).  Well this fellow was certainly not a 12 and probably was closer to a 18-20 handicap.  So I was a little annoyed when I discovered he had an ego handicap (didn't turn in his "bad" rounds because they "were not typical") as the entry fees for these isn't insignificant (at least not for me).  So if you're just out having fun I don't care how you play, but if you're going to play in tournaments you ought to stick to the rules of golf and record all your rounds and do it correctly.

I understand your point, and admittedly don't play in tournaments, so I don't experience that end of it.  However, I was responding to those that get upset with something as simple as "bragging rights", not tournament results.