A Centered Pivot Golf Swing

[mvmac]

Alright I will play along because you do seem like a swell guy. But again as I stated before these post I see the left shoulder drops but I contend thats because the arms lift so the statement the arms go up and down and the shoulders go around is correct.

It's more than one example, it's four (including Faldo) and every other tour player.

You originally said the shoulders move around with the arms lifting. I then said the shoulders also go down and up. Now your saying the left shoulder does go down but it's due to the arms lifting. That is incorrect as well, it's coming from the hips and bend of the torso. This isn't my opinion, this has been measured in 3D.

It's obviously just one example of a pro but you don't think Dufner lifts his arms? Is there a quote that shows him saying that? How could he possibly get the club over his shoulder and his arms and hands in that position without lifting them? Are you saying that's all from body rotation?

It depends what "lift" means. I would say no he doesn't lift his arms. His right arm gains flex/folds as the left arm load up and across his chest. To me arms lifting mean the arms work independently of the torso and lift off the torso. Basically if Dufner has tees in each arm pit they wouldn't come out. Lifting would have the tees come out.

If anything golfers that lift their arms have more shallow pivots, not steeper pivots.

How could he possibly get the club over his shoulder and his arms and hands in that position without lifting them? Are you saying that's all from body rotation?

Part of the left arm loading is coming from the "stretch" piece, most of it is coming from the right arm.

Not that it is how I start my back swing but my right shoulder blade definitely squeezes down.

Just because you feel it doesn't mean that's what is happening. Your left shoulder goes down during the backswing, it's not because the arms are lifting, again this isn't my opinion just the way our bodies work.

I disagree and think that is your feel. I can easily put my arms across my chest and rotate around my spine without my left shoulder going down and still clear my chin enough.

You won't be able to turn 90 degrees and/or keep the head steady. To accomplish those two things you would have to look something like this.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

Do you have this move on video? If you are in fact rotating your shoulders level, they're not rotating about your spine and you're not performing a centered pivot correctly. I can rotate my shoulders pretty flat and still get the left shoulder under my chin, too. That doesn't really mean all that much. The spine is inclined towards the ground at address. If the shoulders are rotated about the spine (perpendicular), one has to go down and one goes up.

So you think if you force your shoulder down to rotate on a plane it proves something but if you can rotate flat from the same golf posture it is wrong? Okie dokie. [quote name="iacas" url="/t/54540/a-centered-pivot/54#post_1068200"] Nope: [SPOILER=Photo] [/SPOILER] Lifting your arms does nothing to change the shoulder sockets. It's a complete non-starter. This makes no sense at all. Plus, if both arms lift, why would one shoulder go UP while the other goes DOWN? This bit you have about the arms lifting is a complete non-starter. Particularly in light of the photo earlier in this post. NO LIFTING, shoulders on an inclined angle. Yup. Simple geometry. It's what's happening, in reality, in 3D, biomechanically. You may feel something different, but you're feels aren't matched with reality if you feel your left shoulder not going down. (Or, alternatively, you have a horrible, terrible, no-good very bad swing, Alexander.)   So can I… when I'm playing T-ball off a very, very tall tee. We are bent over and play golf shots with a ball on the ground, however. One more basic picture, since we want to turn our shoulders in a "circle" that's inclined to the ground: [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/108110/] [/URL] [/quote] Wow you had some nice rebuttals there. Seriously? If both arms lift why would one shoulder lift? I don't know maybe because one arm is bent and stuck to the body and the other isn't? The rest of your post is pretty much nonsense. Why do I get the feeling I am discussing this with the same person under multiple names at the same time? And nice shot at my swing. It ain't prefect for sure but I am starting to think I can beat you haha. ;-)

[iacas]

So you think if you force your shoulder down to rotate on a plane it proves something but if you can rotate flat from the same golf posture it is wrong? Okie dokie.

Now I feel like yyou're just being purposefully dense.

EVERY player plays bent over somewhat. Nobody has a spine that's vertical.

Wow you had some nice rebuttals there. Seriously? If both arms lift why would one shoulder lift? I don't know maybe because one arm is bent and stuck to the body and the other isn't? The rest of your post is pretty much nonsense. Why do I get the feeling I am discussing this with the same person under multiple names at the same time?

Oh brother. There's nonsense in this thread tonight, but it's coming from you. Please stop.

Yeah, Mike and I (and @billchao and @saevel25 ), with tens of thousands of posts between us all, with separate GAME Golf profiles, pictures, VIDEOS with ourselves in them, etc. are all just the same person.

C'mon.

Your shoulder sockets are unaffected by whatever your arms are doing. You rotate your torso on an inclined plane. One shoulder socket goes down, the other goes up. Again, basic geometry. Basic anatomy.

You're close to being restricted from the thread. You're offering nothing of substance and debating actual facts . These aren't opinions.

[billchao]

So you think if you force your shoulder down to rotate on a plane it proves something but if you can rotate flat from the same golf posture it is wrong? Okie dokie.

Yes. The whole point isn't about doing a shoulder movement, it's about making a centered pivot. In order to make a flat turn from a golf incline, you'd have to raise the lead shoulder. Front side stretching as opposed to bending causes the head to sway.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

Now I feel like yyou're just being purposefully dense. EVERY player plays bent over somewhat. Nobody has a spine that's vertical. Oh brother. There's nonsense in this thread tonight, but it's coming from you. Please stop. Yeah, Mike and I (and @billchao and @saevel25 ), with tens of thousands of posts between us all, with separate GAME Golf profiles, pictures, VIDEOS with ourselves in them, etc. are all just the same person. C'mon. Your shoulder sockets are unaffected by whatever your arms are doing. You rotate your torso on an inclined plane. One shoulder socket goes down, the other goes up. Again, basic geometry. Basic anatomy. You're close to being restricted from the thread. You're offering nothing of substance and debating actual facts . These aren't opinions.

So your going to move my post then restrict me. Good move. Guess it ain't going your way. I changed my position about the internal rotation on the post I quoted myself before it got moved here so not sure what you are talking about shoulder sockets for excuse my ignorance but if you explain it I will answer. I won't delve further into the other stuff.

[mvmac]

So you think if you force your shoulder down to rotate on a plane it proves something but if you can rotate flat from the same golf posture it is wrong? Okie dokie.

Wow you had some nice rebuttals there. Seriously? If both arms lift why would one shoulder lift? I don't know maybe because one arm is bent and stuck to the body and the other isn't? The rest of your post is pretty much nonsense. Why do I get the feeling I am discussing this with the same person under multiple names at the same time?

And nice shot at my swing. It ain't prefect for sure but I am starting to think I can beat you haha.

This is the response you give when we provide examples and share our knowledge? Very immature dude. Can you back up your opinion at all?

[iacas]

So your going to move my post then restrict me. Good move. Guess it ain't going your way. I changed my position about the internal rotation on the post I quoted myself before it got moved here so not sure what you are talking about shoulder sockets for excuse my ignorance but if you explain it I will answer.

Not at all.

We moved your post to the appropriate thread. It was venturing off topic for the "tips" thread.

You're the only person here who thinks "it's not going my way." There is no "my way." There's just facts here, and you're seemingly willfully ignorant of them. I'm simply asking that you actually provide something of substance. You've not even responded to the many examples and things shown here. You've just called them nonsense and repeated yourself. If you continue to post non-responses, then what's the point in continuing the discussion?

I won't delve further into the other stuff.

You haven't delved into anything. You've failed to respond to the examples, information, pictures, etc. shown to you.

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No further "meta" or off-topic posts will be tolerated in this thread. Speak to the topic, please.

[saevel25]

So you think if you force your shoulder down to rotate on a plane it proves something but if you can rotate flat from the same golf posture it is wrong? Okie dokie. Wow you had some nice rebuttals there. Seriously? If both arms lift why would one shoulder lift? I don't know maybe because one arm is bent and stuck to the body and the other isn't? The rest of your post is pretty much nonsense. Why do I get the feeling I am discussing this with the same person under multiple names at the same time? And nice shot at my swing. It ain't prefect for sure but I am starting to think I can beat you haha. ;-)

Because the shoulder is a ball and socket joint. The socket joint is pretty much limited in movement. The upper bone in the arm has the ball portion that allows motions in all directions except away from the joint, except in painful dislocations. The arms do pull on the shoulders, but not enough to lower the shoulder. The muscles that control that are the upper back muscles and the shoulder muscles. Again like I said, the shoulders are already none retracted at address, there is literally no movement required by the left shoulder or back muscles. The only way that shoulder moves is through rotation. Check out this virtual representation with the K-Vest. You can see the shoulder axis turn down and around even before the arms do any significant raising up. [VIDEO]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OdwsUBWTPQM[/VIDEO]

[whatwoodtigerdo]

Sorry mufti quote is not working right on my iPad but I am sure it is me. To mvmac last post I can only respond to what I am given. The post I responded to was nonsense as I posted and I stand by it. To saevel25 last post I am not sure how that video shows anything about shoulder dip versus arms moving up. I watched it twice and just didn't see it At iacas last post , sorry but you standing without a club and tilted forward is not a fact about shoulder turn. I haven't seen any facts about that. But this is the final straw dealing with people here I have other logins at different sites and I will just go there. Have fun peddling your products. I live in charlotte if you wanna make some money let me know how much you are for a traveling lesson and we can work out some kind of bet on that amount on a match. I will let you pick the course and tees. You can PM me if interested. If not I am out. Last post. Peace.

[saevel25]

Sorry mufti quote is not working right on my iPad but I am sure it is me. To mvmac last post I can only respond to what I am given. The post I responded to was nonsense as I posted and I stand by it. To saevel25 last post I am not sure how that video shows anything about shoulder dip versus arms moving up. I watched it twice and just didn't see it At iacas last post , sorry but you standing without a club and tilted forward is not a fact about shoulder turn. I haven't seen any facts about that. But this is the final straw dealing with people here I have other logins at different sites and I will just go there. Have fun peddling your products. I live in charlotte if you wanna make some money let me know how much you are for a traveling lesson and we can work out some kind of bet on that amount on a match. I will let you pick the course and tees. You can PM me if interested. If not I am out. Last post. Peace.

Um it's a turn not a dip. When the body torques around the spine it is a turn, also known as rotation. That is common biomechanics. I think you just have no clue what a turn of the body is.

[iacas]

To mvmac last post I can only respond to what I am given. The post I responded to was nonsense as I posted and I stand by it.

It wasn't. Mike asked you if you could back up what you are saying at all, and once again, you're demonstrating that you cannot.

To saevel25 last post I am not sure how that video shows anything about shoulder dip versus arms moving up. I watched it twice and just didn't see it

It demonstrates it fairly clearly - that the torso is tilted and thus the left shoulder goes down and is lower than the right shoulder.

At iacas last post , sorry but you standing without a club and tilted forward is not a fact about shoulder turn.

That demonstrates that your "theory" about the arms "lifting" has anything to do with the shoulder trajectories. I never claimed that picture was "the fact."

The facts I'm talking about are the basic geometry being discussed. The basic anatomy. The basic biomechanics. The basic idea of turning your torso in an arc.

But this is the final straw dealing with people here I have other logins at different sites and I will just go there. Have fun peddling your products. I live in charlotte if you wanna make some money let me know how much you are for a traveling lesson and we can work out some kind of bet on that amount on a match. I will let you pick the course and tees. You can PM me if interested. If not I am out. Last post. Peace.

I don't play with people who stop for 30 minutes at the turn and then expect to just get to slot back in ahead of other people.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

Um it's a turn not a dip. When the body torques around the spine it is a turn, also known as rotation. That is common biomechanics. I think you just have no clue what a turn of the body is.

Yeah I know the difference. Maybe y'all don't.

[saevel25]

Yeah I know the difference.

Apparently not.

[14ledo81]

Sorry mufti quote is not working right on my iPad but I am sure it is me. To mvmac last post I can only respond to what I am given. The post I responded to was nonsense as I posted and I stand by it. To saevel25 last post I am not sure how that video shows anything about shoulder dip versus arms moving up. I watched it twice and just didn't see it At iacas last post , sorry but you standing without a club and tilted forward is not a fact about shoulder turn. I haven't seen any facts about that. But this is the final straw dealing with people here I have other logins at different sites and I will just go there. Have fun peddling your products. I live in charlotte if you wanna make some money let me know how much you are for a traveling lesson and we can work out some kind of bet on that amount on a match. I will let you pick the course and tees. You can PM me if interested. If not I am out. Last post. Peace.

I'll play (take the bet) as long as you turn your shoulders flat in the backswing...... :)

[Mr. Desmond]

Stubborn is as stubborn does... delusional is as delusional sees.

[Ernest Jones]

Yeah I know the difference. Maybe y'all don't.

Just post up a video of you (or anyone) hitting decent golf shots while demonstrating your level shoulder turn. Simple as that.

[iacas]

Just post up a video of you (or anyone) hitting decent golf shots while demonstrating your level shoulder turn. Simple as that.

Won't work. Up above we posted pictures of Tour pros, with their shoulder locations at setup and most of the way through the backswing marked, and he denied that stuff too.

He said he was leaving for other forums. I think he was last spotted at http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/.

[Mr. Desmond]

I would hope this misunderstanding is the result of a failure in the method of communication, in terms of the light not turning for that member with wwtd - if giving a lesson, the light would hopefully turn on. In the absence of such, I offer this, with all the lights/dots. I believe the minimalist clothing helps one see what is occurring in a better light.