My favorite drills for hands ahead of clubhead

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Thanks Erik, I appreciate the explanation.

Yes, Erik beat me to it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I think it's a drag that Tom is most likely long gone, after firing off some rather inflammatory and combatative posts

To be fair, he wasn't exactly "around" much to begin with.

Would I prefer that people who disagree stick around? You bet. Someone is likely to learn something in the end. If it's him, great. If it's me, even better.

Generally speaking, btw: when you post a drill, I like it when you say how to do the drill as well as WHY the drill works and WHAT problem it fixes. Answer the questions ahead of time. Don't just say things like "spin your hips and you'll get shaft lean!"

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by iacas

To be fair, he wasn't exactly "around" much to begin with.

Would I prefer that people who disagree stick around? You bet. Someone is likely to learn something in the end. If it's him, great. If it's me, even better.

Not saying I want him gone, just hope he hasn't sparked a war of words among regular posters who generally get along. In any case, the speed with which he shifted from 'here's some good drills people should try' to 'oh yeah, well I can kick your ass so screw you' made it seem unlikely that there was much to be gained by interacting with. I get the feeling that the 'oh yeah well I can kick your ass' attitude would have surfaced pretty quickly regardless of how people viewed his drills.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Not saying I want him gone, just hope he hasn't sparked a war of words among regular posters who generally get along.

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the moment someone fires off a post like Tom's recent effort they should be banned from the site. Tom has the potential to be another Golfs For Fun or whatever he was called. One thing is a heated discussion among regulars, quite another is that level of aggressiveness. Fortunately for some, I'm not the boss around here! ;-)

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by iacas

Because there's not an epidemic of people overly straightening the right knee. If anything, people keep the right knee too flexed, which limits hip turn and slant, which limits shoulder turn (and slant). Maybe that's local to Erie + the people we teach from the various other states and countries, and maybe elsewhere golfers all decrease flex in the knee too much... but I doubt it.

If a golfer isn't doing something enough, you don't exaggerate him doing it less.

Harmonious, I'll send you a PM, because my response is kind of off topic, but the long and the short of it is this: you seem to place a lot of faith in what people SAY simply due to their handicap or their ranking as a "great" instructor, while I put a lot of faith in science, biomechanics, physics, geometry, and what those good golfers actually DO.

Yes this business about the right knee straightening causes A LOT of drama, instructors actually get angry when we advocate it.  I absolutely see zero reason to keep it flexed.  No one that plays for a living does it.  It's unfortunate this information has been so cemented in golf instruction, because I just don't see.  And this piece is NOT exclusive to S&T;/MORAD/Golf evolution, we just point out that it's happening, measure it and apply it.

"Feel" as most have you have said, only matters to the player it applies to.  At schools Dave, Erik and James will suggest certain feels until one sticks or even put a student in a certain position and ask "What are you feeling"?  Exp: Erik and I are working on getting the right elbow more forward at P6, we could have different feels but achieve the same result  So, who's right?  Like we say so often, feel ain't real.

Oh yea and Erik can play and demonstrate

Originally Posted by iacas

Would I prefer that people who disagree stick around? You bet. Someone is likely to learn something in the end. If it's him, great. If it's me, even better.

Yes we welcome all opinions and Erik, Dave, James and I continue to learn and "evolve" how we present the information.  If there is a better way to do it, we'll be the first in line.

And here is a thread I just started about the rear knee straightening

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55080/myth-of-keeping-the-rear-knee-flexed

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the moment someone fires off a post like Tom's recent effort they should be banned from the site. Tom has the potential to be another Golfs For Fun or whatever he was called. One thing is a heated discussion among regulars, quite another is that level of aggressiveness. Fortunately for some, I'm not the boss around here! ;-)

We don't ban people anywhere near as often as most places. Even GFF is not banned. People generally behave themselves, and when they don't, I try to see that as passion for the game of golf coming through inappropriately. I don't know what our true ban count is (since switching to Huddler, spammers get banned instead of deleted, so I can't just look at the Banned group and give you a count) but it's well under 20. I don't even remember the last person who was permanently banned. It takes a LOT. Far more than calling me a chop or whatever.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by iacas

We don't ban people anywhere near as often as most places. Even GFF is not banned. People generally behave themselves, and when they don't, I try to see that as passion for the game of golf coming through inappropriately. I don't know what our true ban count is (since switching to Huddler, spammers get banned instead of deleted, so I can't just look at the Banned group and give you a count) but it's well under 20. I don't even remember the last person who was permanently banned. It takes a LOT. Far more than calling me a chop or whatever.

LOL, he called you a "donk"  I believe.

Anyway, banning some one is fine but showing them video of themselves completely contradicting themselves is priceless.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

LOL, he called you a "donk"  I believe.

Anyway, banning some one is fine but showing them video of themselves completely contradicting themselves is priceless.

my bad, he called you a "chopper", but someone called someone a "donk" somewhere recently! Anyway, if I had to be called something I guess helicopter wouldn't be so bad! Hey...wait...if he's the one advocating spinning out your hips like a helicopter maybe he should get the cool "chopper" nickname.

[B-Con]

my bad, he called you a "chopper", but someone called someone a "donk" somewhere recently!

Here, directed at iacas: [quote name="Tiger90" url="/t/54677/my-favorite-drills-for-hands-ahead-of-clubhead#post_666476"] I dont understand where your coming from with this...you say his drills are wrong because he cannot do them...What do you think golf coaches or caddies are for, ya donk. [...] [/quote] Anyway... After reading (most) of the thread... The "don't straighten your right leg" advice reminds me of myself when I was starting. I had the hardest time involving my lower body in the golf swing because it felt very uncomfortable to move it. (And it's still not the most comfortable part of my swing.) My desire was to keep my lower body completely still and not move it at all. That wasn't realistic, but I did minimize the amount that it moved as much as possible. I got comments from my buddies on how rigid and stiff my legs and hips were. As I tried to fix that, my concession was to rotate my hips on an inclined plane; not a steep enough one, but nonetheless an inclined plane. But I still resisted any movement that I could. So somehow, subconsciously, I decided that the most comfortable way to do so was to lock my right leg and rotate my hips so that my left leg pretty much absorbed all of the rotation. So I was basically locking my right leg and rotating around it. Or some similar geometric nightmare. It probably goes without saying that I had a horrible time hitting fat. The first time I video'd my swing I immediately saw this odd move and it looked awkward to my eye, never mind the fact that I knew I shouldn't be doing it. Once I worked on it and could straighten the right leg comfortably I fixed about half of my hitting fat problems. So, I tried not straightening the right leg, albeit unintentionally. But it was one of the two biggest swing mistakes I've made to date, and fixing it has helped me immensely. So not only does not straightening the right leg make no sense to me in theory, I've only improved since ditching it in practice. Perhaps a tad off-topic, but it seemed somewhat relevant.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by B-Con

Here, directed at iacas:

Anyway... After reading (most) of the thread...

The "don't straighten your right leg" advice reminds me of myself when I was starting.

I had the hardest time involving my lower body in the golf swing because it felt very uncomfortable to move it. (And it's still not the most comfortable part of my swing.) My desire was to keep my lower body completely still and not move it at all. That wasn't realistic, but I did minimize the amount that it moved as much as possible. I got comments from my buddies on how rigid and stiff my legs and hips were.

As I tried to fix that, my concession was to rotate my hips on an inclined plane; not a steep enough one, but nonetheless an inclined plane. But I still resisted any movement that I could. So somehow, subconsciously, I decided that the most comfortable way to do so was to lock my right leg and rotate my hips so that my left leg pretty much absorbed all of the rotation. So I was basically locking my right leg and rotating around it. Or some similar geometric nightmare. It probably goes without saying that I had a horrible time hitting fat.

The first time I video'd my swing I immediately saw this odd move and it looked awkward to my eye, never mind the fact that I knew I shouldn't be doing it. Once I worked on it and could straighten the right leg comfortably I fixed about half of my hitting fat problems.

So, I tried not straightening the right leg, albeit unintentionally. But it was one of the two biggest swing mistakes I've made to date, and fixing it has helped me immensely.

So not only does not straightening the right leg make no sense to me in theory, I've only improved since ditching it in practice.

Perhaps a tad off-topic, but it seemed somewhat relevant.

Thanks, thought I was going a little crazy there. What's a donk?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Con

Here, directed at iacas:

Anyway... After reading (most) of the thread...

The "don't straighten your right leg" advice reminds me of myself when I was starting.

I had the hardest time involving my lower body in the golf swing because it felt very uncomfortable to move it. (And it's still not the most comfortable part of my swing.) My desire was to keep my lower body completely still and not move it at all. That wasn't realistic, but I did minimize the amount that it moved as much as possible. I got comments from my buddies on how rigid and stiff my legs and hips were.

As I tried to fix that, my concession was to rotate my hips on an inclined plane; not a steep enough one, but nonetheless an inclined plane. But I still resisted any movement that I could. So somehow, subconsciously, I decided that the most comfortable way to do so was to lock my right leg and rotate my hips so that my left leg pretty much absorbed all of the rotation. So I was basically locking my right leg and rotating around it. Or some similar geometric nightmare. It probably goes without saying that I had a horrible time hitting fat.

The first time I video'd my swing I immediately saw this odd move and it looked awkward to my eye, never mind the fact that I knew I shouldn't be doing it. Once I worked on it and could straighten the right leg comfortably I fixed about half of my hitting fat problems.

So, I tried not straightening the right leg, albeit unintentionally. But it was one of the two biggest swing mistakes I've made to date, and fixing it has helped me immensely.

So not only does not straightening the right leg make no sense to me in theory, I've only improved since ditching it in practice.

Perhaps a tad off-topic, but it seemed somewhat relevant.

Thanks, thought I was going a little crazy there. What's a donk?

This is a donk (according to Crocodile Dundee):

[B-Con]

Thanks, thought I was going a little crazy there. What's a donk?

According to Google Images, this is also a popular "donk": [img]http://www.thisisyourconscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/DONK.jpg[/img] Was not expecting that.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by B-Con

I like your new wheels, Brad.  The new job must be going well to afford such a fine ride!

[poser]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the moment someone fires off a post like Tom's recent effort they should be banned from the site. Tom has the potential to be another Golfs For Fun or whatever he was called. One thing is a heated discussion among regulars, quite another is that level of aggressiveness. Fortunately for some, I'm not the boss around here! ;-)

I'll have to disagree.  It's a golf forum on the interent not a fist fight in the parking lot.  If what he said offended someone then they need to get some thicker skin.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by poser

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

My opinion, for what it is worth, is that the moment someone fires off a post like Tom's recent effort they should be banned from the site. Tom has the potential to be another Golfs For Fun or whatever he was called. One thing is a heated discussion among regulars, quite another is that level of aggressiveness. Fortunately for some, I'm not the boss around here! ;-)

I'll have to disagree.  It's a golf forum on the interent not a fist fight in the parking lot.  If what he said offended someone then they need to get some thicker skin.

I agree. It also should be said for Tom's 'roid rage at others because they disagree.

[Tom]

first - IACAS: i don't come around very often. but, when i have you have sought me out it seems to poke holes in whatever i may have to say. iacas has done this every time, literally. i understand he is a proprietor of this website. i understand he is an instructor, profits from his advice, derives clients from this website and is (was?) a proponent of stack and tilt. it seems if he is no longer a proponent of s&t; exclusively, it would be because s&t; as a stand alone swing method has really been debunked. but in past, he has professed it as "the" swing. over the past two years or so i've seen where he has massaged s&t; to be the swing methodology employed by ben hogan and other legends, but they didn't know it was stack and tilt. i have called him out on that, and some others agreed with me that he (and this site) is a bit overt on the s&t; chatter. has this changed? i don't know. but because of this i don't participate much in discussions. in fact i mostly go around the two other prominent golf discussion weebsites.

moreover, i haven't visited this website or this specific thread since i started it whenever that was. then the other day i came back and saw where he's just laying into me, posting still pictures (where did he even get those?), drawing lines, saying all sorts of blather that is just silly. saying "hips 42 degress open" "back leg straight" or whatever - basically tearing me a new one. i'm thinking the guy doesn't even know me!!!  he's got to be a hack!!! why? he hasn't asked me anything... he's never PM'd me to clarify or anything, yet he's an authority on my swing? WHAT? he doesn't know my swing, my game, etc., yet here he is just killing me. i mean, yeah - come on!

as to the "straightening" of the right leg... whatever! yeah - come on... bubba watson? see below. can his leg straighten any more? everyone knows why you WOULD want to straighten your back leg. it maximizes the amount of rearward hip rotation which also maximizes the amount he is able to turn behind the ball. is this for everyone? it could be... does it matter? i don't think so. why would anyone profess not to straighten the rear leg? a straightening rear leg could cause your upper body to tilt toward the target if you don't have a sufficient upper body spine angle (away from target). but, watch the vid. after bubba gets his turn he "squats" a bit and rotates his hips thru just about more than anyone. was bubba's dad saying to him "uh son, you can't do that!!" no... his dad knew his game - saw his scorecard(s), saw he could do anything with the golf ball, etc.,

as to the original intent of the post "hands ahead" - i consider myself a "pro flipper." watch lee westwood. his left wrist breaks down a touch and his left elbow folds at or shortly after impact. i am more or less a "lee westwood" type of impact person. because of this, the one thing i have to work on is forward shaft lean to ensure that i have enough. so, i posted what i like to work on to get my hands ahead. then come back and the dude has lit a fire under my arse... yeah - come on!

iacas, have anything to say about these?: here's a swing of mine from Dec 6 2011

and here's a swing of mine from Oct 11, 2011

those two days i was working on something very specific, and quite different. and, because i am a "work in progress" anyone can see there's a difference in my swing from october to december. in fact, here in mid-january i would guess i am a bit diffferent now than then. so, and in summary, when someone with which i have a history lights into me (yet again) for the purpose of selling lessons and or placing themselves higher on the golfing pedestal, etc., i reserve the right to fire back. and again, they don't know me (my swing, my game, etc.,) from a hole in the ground.

cheers

[newtogolf]

Erik isn't the only one to suggest Hogan had some S&T; tendencies.  I just finished reading a book about Hogan's secret and the author stated that Hogan had two swings, one that he showcased in front of the cameras and the other he played in tournaments.  In his tournament swing the author suggests that Hogan would shift his weight to his left leg while completing his backswing to reduce the number of moving parts on his downswing and ensure a constant point of contact with the ball.

I don't use a S&T; swing and while Erik believes in the methods he teaches I've never seen him just dismiss someone elses golf swing or suggestions if he felt they made valid points regardless of their swing methodology.  Maybe you just need to start over here as your swing looks great and you could contribute to the group.

Originally Posted by Tom

first - IACAS: i don't come around very often. but, when i have you have sought me out it seems to poke holes in whatever i may have to say. iacas has done this every time, literally. i understand he is a proprietor of this website. i understand he is an instructor, profits from his advice, derives clients from this website and is (was?) a proponent of stack and tilt. it seems if he is no longer a proponent of s&t; exclusively, it would be because s&t; as a stand alone swing method has really been debunked. but in past, he has professed it as "the" swing. over the past two years or so i've seen where he has massaged s&t; to be the swing methodology employed by ben hogan and other legends, but they didn't know it was stack and tilt. i have called him out on that, and some others agreed with me that he (and this site) is a bit overt on the s&t; chatter. has this changed? i don't know. but because of this i don't participate much in discussions.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Tom

first - IACAS: i don't come around very often. but, when i have you have sought me out it seems to poke holes in whatever i may have to say.

I haven't sought you out (didn't even post in your "My Swing" thread). And to be fair, the "poking holes" has been pretty easy.

Originally Posted by Tom

it seems if he is no longer a proponent of s&t; exclusively, it would be because s&t; as a stand alone swing method has really been debunked.

It hasn't been debunked. Golf Evolution instruction simply differs enough - some different terminology, some different feels, and some variations on the pattern depending on a few things - that we no longer consider ourselves "purely" S&T.; It's simply one of the layers to our instruction. You keep going back to that, though. Hey, man, whatever floats your boat.

Originally Posted by Tom

he's got to be a hack!!! why? he hasn't asked me anything... he's never PM'd me to clarify or anything, yet he's an authority on my swing? WHAT? he doesn't know my swing, my game, etc., yet here he is just killing me. i mean, yeah - come on!

Why would I have to know you to point out the incredible inconsistencies in your own swing versus what you preach to others? You say one thing, you do another. I don't need to know you. Your videos were posted for all to see. Why would I PM you? I asked you questions and shared information in this thread and all you managed to do was come back and call me names.

Originally Posted by Tom

after bubba gets his turn he "squats" a bit and rotates his hips thru just about more than anyone.

That's an overly simplistic explanation of Bubba Watson's swing. How is the below image representative of someone "[rotating] his hips thru just about more than anyone" when his hips essentially don't rotate a bit from before impact to WELL after impact? Where's the rotation here? They're frozen. I know why they are, but this is a bit off topic, so I'm cutting it off.

Originally Posted by Tom

as to the original intent of the post "hands ahead" - i consider myself a "pro flipper." watch lee westwood. his left wrist breaks down a touch and his left elbow folds at or shortly after impact. i am more or less a "lee westwood" type of impact person. because of this, the one thing i have to work on is forward shaft lean to ensure that i have enough. so, i posted what i like to work on to get my hands ahead. then come back and the dude has lit a fire under my arse... yeah - come on!

Lee's left arm folds VERY early and he needs to flip a little or else he'd deliver a clubface with virtually no dynamic loft because his left elbow is bent so much at impact it puts the left forearm well ahead. If he had a perfectly flat left wrist or, heaven forbid, a slightly bowed left wrist he could easily achieve negative loft on his driver. Still, Lee achieves shaft lean. You achieve much less (Lee is at 10 in this driver, you're at 1-3 degrees with irons).

It's nice that you see yourself as a "pro flipper" but the point I'd make is simply this: perhaps a "pro flipper" shouldn't give advice on how to get his hands ahead at impact given that he doesn't really get his hands ahead at impact?

Originally Posted by Tom

iacas, have anything to say about these?: here's a swing of mine from Dec 6 2011

and here's a swing of mine from Oct 11, 2011

What do you want me to say? You achieve less shaft lean than is desirable (better in the one, but still a bit too little), your rate of closure is sky high, and you both straighten your right knee AND slide your hips forward (because if you didn't, you'd have all sorts of trouble).

There are two problems with the original post you made.

1. You gave no reasons or logic behind your "drills," and worse yet, the drills you gave are more likely to achieve the opposite results than the desired results.
2. You do not practice what you preach. What good players actually do is far more relevant than what they say they do or feel.

I'll take facts and evidence - video, 3D, Trackman, etc. - over what people say every single time .

Originally Posted by Tom

those two days i was working on something very specific, and quite different. and, because i am a "work in progress" anyone can see there's a difference in my swing from october to december. in fact, here in mid-january i would guess i am a bit diffferent now than then. so, and in summary, when someone with which i have a history lights into me (yet again) for the purpose of selling lessons and or placing themselves higher on the golfing pedestal, etc., i reserve the right to fire back. and again, they don't know me (my swing, my game, etc.,) from a hole in the ground.

1. The history you seem to think we have is all in your head. I see - and respond - to posts and threads that interest me. In this particular thread I was drawn to it when three people who know a bit about the golf swing all posted, then you taunted them (and were probably trying to taunt me) with post #5 . There's no history except whatever you might have imagined.
2. Poser "found your swing" because you posted a "My Swing" thread. I linked to it. Not a big secret where I got the video which showed what you DID to become a +2.2 rather than a hacker. The videos showed that what you did conflicted with what you were telling others to do.
3. I'm not here to "sell lessons" or "place myself on a higher pedestal." Do you know how much money I've personally made from selling lessons to people here on the site? Not a whole lot, and I give out a ton of information freely and to all who want to listen. I don't care one bit about the "golf pedestal." If at the end of the day I've helped some people play better golf, I'm happy.
4. You haven't fired back at all . You've just posted some semi-nonsensical rants and taunts . Where was the information in that post? Where in that post did you answer the questions I asked you? I'm all for discussion and engagement, but you immediately jumped into, well, being an asshat rather than attempting to explain yourself.
5. You've posted your swing. It conflicts with the advice you gave. Of course we "know your swing" better than a hole in the ground. There's video right there.

So this is how the thread has gone.

• You post some bizarre advice. Other members call you on it and ask you to explain.
• I call you on it and ask some questions. Someone points out that your swing is available. I demonstrate that you do not practice what you preach.
• Other members call you on the above.
• You respond by calling people names.
• Others respond about the meta topic of "do good players necessarily offer good advice?"
• You come back, "fire back," and still don't answer any of the questions posed to you . You imagine some sort of history. Lemme tell ya, I've got better things to do and read far too many posts to remember or even try to remember things to form a "history." Hell, I didn't even comment in your My Swing thread ! What a history!

I like good advice. I hate bad advice. I don't care who offers the good advice, but I damn sure hope I don't ever offer bad advice, and I care when others offer bad advice as well because I want people who come here to get better at golf and enjoy golf more. Bad advice doesn't help them with that. You offered bad advice and, when asked by me and others to explain it, instead chose to behave like a child and call me names and things. Compound that with the fact that your own swings show that you do not do the things you preach.

I will conclude with two simple thoughts.

1. You play the game well. I trust that you're a +2.2 or whatever. You could play the game better if you fixed some of the flaws in your swing. That last sentence is true of anyone who plays the game at any level.
2. Ability to play the game implies virtually no ability to teach the game. Good players don't automatically make good instructors.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Erik isn't the only one to suggest Hogan had some S&T; tendencies.  I just finished reading a book about Hogan's secret and the author stated that Hogan had two swings, one that he showcased in front of the cameras and the other he played in tournaments. In his tournament swing the author suggests that Hogan would shift his weight to his left leg while completing his backswing to reduce the number of moving parts on his downswing and ensure a constant point of contact with the ball.

I don't use a S&T; swing and while Erik believes in the methods he teaches I've never seen him just dismiss someone elses golf swing or suggestions if he felt they made valid points regardless of their swing methodology.  Maybe you just need to start over here as your swing looks great and you could contribute to the group.

Hogan did a lot of S&T; stuff. So did Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead, Woods, Norman, Faldo, etc. etc. etc. So does every player on the PGA Tour. S&T; came about after Mike and Andy classified the things the best players did (and contrasted them with the things the poorer players did). By definition it was bound to include the things PGA Tour players did because that's how they "created" the swing - by categorizing the things the great players did. If 95% of them all did something, it became part of their pattern. It's kind of a back door way of creating a swing, but you could easily argue that S&T; is an amalgamation of the components the greatest players have been doing for decades (along with the physics and geometry and biomechanics to back it up).

I'd like for Tom to contribute positively. It's up to him whether he wants to do that or not, and though the evidence suggests he won't, I'll cross my fingers.