Kornheiser: NFL to decline?

[newtogolf]

WR's and DB's also wear the lightest shoulder pads and helmets available to not impede their speed.

Originally Posted by bwdial

Concussions by “general” Position

QB = 11

RB = 12

TE = 15

WR = 28

OL = 15

Offense = 81 (48.5%)

DL = 17

LB = 25

DB = 44

Defense = 86 (51.5%)

[bwdial]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

WR's and DB's also wear the lightest shoulder pads and helmets available to not impede their speed.

True, and their impacts are generally the most violent.  Think about some of the all time biggest hitters... Ronnie Lott, Jack Tatum, Steve Atwater, etc... all played DB.  Of course, those guys all brought the lumber with their shoulders, like you're supposed to.  Now, guys like Ryan Clark and Dunta Robinson all lead with their heads and wind up ringing their own bells half the time.

[Leftygolfer]

Where the decline is going to start is in HS football.  I could see states/HSs stop playing because it is dangerous.  Well no Sh*T.  Of course it is.  So is driving a car, motocross, snow sports, soccer.

I love football and will encourage my son to play.  But I know the risk, he will too.  Every player getting on the field knows the risk.  Its the game.  And part of being good is blowing people up.  Do it in the right way, but do it.  I'd be proud of my boy if he was the big hitter on the field.

What annoys me now about the NFL is they are trying to take the big hit out of the game.  The QB should be scared, the WR should be scared.  That makes it a great, even game.  Without the fear offenses will dominate football.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

I could see states/HSs stop playing because it is dangerous.

I can't.  I'd venture that the vast majority of high schools' football programs are their biggest revenue-generators.

Brandon

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

Where the decline is going to start is in HS football.  I could see states/HSs stop playing because it is dangerous.  Well no Sh*T.  Of course it is.  So is driving a car, motocross, snow sports, soccer.

I love football and will encourage my son to play.  But I know the risk, he will too.  Every player getting on the field knows the risk.  Its the game.  And part of being good is blowing people up.  Do it in the right way, but do it.  I'd be proud of my boy if he was the big hitter on the field.

What annoys me now about the NFL is they are trying to take the big hit out of the game.  The QB should be scared, the WR should be scared.  That makes it a great, even game.  Without the fear offenses will dominate football.

That is still more or less what I think as well. Really not worried about the wide receivers receiving a bit of pain.

But, I am concerned about safety in the game, and specifically about the guys in the trenches. Everyone else can very much man up, but they (the linemen) really put their brain's health at a risk that should arguably be outlawed.

[Rudyprimo]

It's not the suicides that will bring down football, it will be all of the lawsuits in the NFL and NCAA over concussions and other injuries that might bring down the game. How much money will colleges be willing to pay out in settlements before they decide they can't afford it anymore and close down their programs. 98 of the top 120 schools that receive the most money from TV contracts have athletic programs that operate in the red. They piss that money away on bloated salaries for coaches and administrators and also on facilities that are state of the art and not really needed. If colleges start dropping their football programs that will directly affect the NFL too. And then you have the moron fans that complain about penalties designed to protect the QB's and Wide Receivers when they are in the act of throwing or catching the ball and are completely defenseless. They aren't stopping them from being hit, they're just saying you can't hit them in the head in that situation. Geez, even in boxing the referee jumps in and stops the fight when one boxer can't defend themselves anymore and they're taking huge blows to the head. And then you have the poor defensive players crying about the rule. But you don't here them crying about the rules that protect their legs from being cut out from underneath them and maybe tearing their knee up. Very hypocritical. I still hear guys like Dan Hampton, who is on the local NBC station on Sunday nights after the Bears game, complaining about all the dirty offensive lineman blocking him at the knees and causing him to have something like 15 surgeries. But then he jumps all over the rule about no contact to the head of receivers and QB's when they are defenseless and he implies it's a sissy rule. The lawsuits might do football in. Not eliminate it but knock it way down in status compared to other sports. And you might have the best athletes looking for other sports or careers where their brains aren't turned into Swiss cheese by the time they're in their 40's and 50's. Also, one poster made a comment that High Schools and Colleges get better helmets than the NFL. I don't know which is true, but I read an article saying the complete opposite. They interviewed some people that worked at Riddell and they said the High Schools get recycled/rebuilt helmets from the NFL that are sold as new. They said there's no quality control over them and a lot of the helmets aren't up to standards like they should be. There are more and more concussions in High School football too.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Rudyprimo

... it will be all of the lawsuits in the NFL and NCAA over concussions and other injuries that might bring down the game ...

... And then you have the moron fans that complain about penalties designed to protect the QB's and Wide Receivers when they are in the act of throwing or catching the ball and are completely defenseless ...

... And you might have the best athletes looking for other sports or careers where their brains aren't turned into Swiss cheese by the time they're in their 40's and 50's ...

...Also, one poster made a comment that High Schools and Colleges get better helmets than the NFL. I don't know which is true, but I read an article saying the complete opposite. They interviewed some people that worked at Riddell and they said the High Schools get recycled/rebuilt helmets from the NFL that are sold as new. They said there's no quality control over them and a lot of the helmets aren't up to standards like they should be. There are more and more concussions in High School football too.

-Quite possibly, but I think it's going to also have a lot to do with your point about players choosing other careers, like this one: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/law-school-nfl-ohio-state-linebacker-chooses-torts-190045948.html

-As a football fan, I appreciate the dilemma the NFL is in with regards to penalties on defenseless receivers, etc.  Offenses are already at a big advantage with the rules as it is and the more and more rules they make to protect WR's, RB's and QB's, the more those offenses will 'exploit' those rules (unafraid QBs standing in the pocket longer, no more alligator armed WRs across the middle, etc).  They certainly can't sit back and do nothing.  So, can they change the rules enough to make it "safe" yet without turning it into something so different that fans would become disinterested?

-See link above

-That was me.  What I meant was (and this is secondhand from an ESPN columnist) there are some high schools out there (colleges too, and some NFL players individually) that are proactively making the decision to use only the most concussion resistant helmets.  (Certainly not all schools do, or could afford to, and I'm sure you are right that a lot of high schools have defective hand me downs too, which is scary)  What the columnist suggests and I agree with is that the colleges and high schools should be provided a better example by the NFL.  The NFL should require the safest helmets to be used, and that would trickle down to the colleges and high schools.  Speaking of helmets, another sickenly annoying trend in college and NFL is the use of ill fitting helmets - its become cool for LBs and RBs helmets to come off during collisions, when in reality if your helmet fits properly, that is not going to happen.  Whatever trends the NFL sets, the colleges and high schools will follow.

[x129]

Will you be proud of your boy when he gets lit up, misses 2 weeks of school and has headaches and sleep problems for the next 50 years?  I have a feeling that eventually the medical community is going to come out and say that you need like 3 months off before you can play again after a concussion since having another before you have recovered is so bad. Throw in better detection and it will be almost impossible to field a team since 1/3 of your starters will be out for the season half way through the year.

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

Where the decline is going to start is in HS football.  I could see states/HSs stop playing because it is dangerous.  Well no Sh*T.  Of course it is.  So is driving a car, motocross, snow sports, soccer.

I love football and will encourage my son to play.  But I know the risk, he will too.  Every player getting on the field knows the risk.  Its the game.  And part of being good is blowing people up.  Do it in the right way, but do it.  I'd be proud of my boy if he was the big hitter on the field.

What annoys me now about the NFL is they are trying to take the big hit out of the game.  The QB should be scared, the WR should be scared.  That makes it a great, even game.  Without the fear offenses will dominate football.

I am guessing 95% of high schools lose money on football. It might generate a lot of revenue but the cost associated with it are just as high. Has nothing to do if the sport (sports in general) are worthwhile as money shouldn't be the reason for HS sports.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I can't.  I'd venture that the vast majority of high schools' football programs are their biggest revenue-generators.

Brandon

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Rudyprimo

98 of the top 120 schools that receive the most money from TV contracts have athletic programs that operate in the red. They piss that money away on bloated salaries for coaches and administrators and also on facilities that are state of the art and not really needed.

Source?

Originally Posted by Rudyprimo

And then you have the moron fans that complain about penalties designed to protect the QB's and Wide Receivers when they are in the act of throwing or catching the ball and are completely defenseless. They aren't stopping them from being hit, they're just saying you can't hit them in the head in that situation.

While there may be some moron fans that fit on that extreme, the only true "morons" are the ones who believe that players moving at 30mph in all different directions can hit a moving target in about a foot-wide space and simultaneously avoid a body part that is directly connected to it.  If athletes had that level of control of their bodies, nobody would ever score a touchdown because tackling a ball-carrier would be so easy that first downs would be hard to come by.

And the biggest moron defending this position is the commissioner himself, who hasn't properly educated the referees on how to institute the new rules properly.  Helmet-to-helmet contact should NOT be a penalty, because it is not something that is necessarily intentional.  Calling penalties for it when it is clearly unintentional and often caused by the victim (WR especially) borders on incompetence.  If you've never noticed this before, watch how often a defensive player will be in position to deliver a tackle/hit/blow and at the last moment the "defenseless" WR or ball-carrier will instinctively lower their head just before contact which results in them being knocked unconscious.  And then the defensive player is labeled a villain for it.  All because of some people who never played the sport at a high level trying to legislate out the unpreventable.

What needs to happen is coaches, players, refs and fans need to be educated on proper vs improper tackling techniques, proper vs improper contact, and what is and isn't preventable.  Helmet-to-helmet contact is NOT preventable.  Spearing (a type of tackling technique) is preventable.  When the shoulder plane of the tackler becomes parallel to the ground with the facemask facing the dirt, there is a problem.  But not every helmet-related injury is a result of this type of technique.  Until then, NFL games and their rules will continue to be a mess.

Brandon

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by x129

I am guessing 95% of high schools lose money on football. It might generate a lot of revenue but the cost associated with it are just as high. Has nothing to do if the sport (sports in general) are worthwhile as money shouldn't be the reason for HS sports.

Source?  I've been closely associated with these things for decades, and their are on-campus programs and institutions that depend on football revenue for their spending expenditures and improvements.

Brandon

[jamo]

I am guessing 95% of high schools lose money on football. It might generate a lot of revenue but the cost associated with it are just as high. Has nothing to do if the sport (sports in general) are worthwhile as money shouldn't be the reason for HS sports.

I'd imagine any all all stats related to the profitability of HS football programs vary wildly between urban, suburban, and rural areas, as well as by different parts of the country.

[bwdial]

Quote:

Speaking of helmets, another sickenly annoying trend in college and NFL is the use of ill fitting helmets - its become cool for LBs and RBs helmets to come off during collisions, when in reality if your helmet fits properly, that is not going to happen.  Whatever trends the NFL sets, the colleges and high schools will follow.

You are right on the money.  The NFL should start penalizing teams 15 yards every time an official sees someone with only two of the four straps buckled.  Furthermore, pregame checks by NFL officials to make sure that everyone has a fitted helmet could be done as well.  It's not like the NFL couldn't afford to institute some mandatory sort of pregame safety check.

[Golfingdad]

Brandon, I totally agree with you.  But therein lies the dilemma because of this:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Helmet-to-helmet contact is NOT preventable.

and this:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

But not every helmet-related injury is a result of this type of technique.

this isn't going to be enough:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

What needs to happen is coaches, players, refs and fans need to be educated on proper vs improper tackling techniques, proper vs improper contact, and what is and isn't preventable.

So much of the dangerous pounding the players take (and I'm thinking mostly of the interior guys here) is on totally proper and legal hits.  You can't eliminate those without really changing the game, I would think, which means they have to get better helmet technology.  Or else I have to agree with Mr. Kornheiser et. al. that football popularity will decline.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by bwdial

You are right on the money.  The NFL should start penalizing teams 15 yards every time an official sees someone with only two of the four straps buckled.  Furthermore, pregame checks by NFL officials to make sure that everyone has a fitted helmet could be done as well.  It's not like the NFL couldn't afford to institute some mandatory sort of pregame safety check.

Good idea.  Or if a pregame check is too difficult to implement, once your helmet does come off during a play, you then submit to a helmet fitting check while the game is going on and you're missing plays.  Seems like that would solve that problem real fast.

[Leftygolfer]

Originally Posted by x129

Will you be proud of your boy when he gets lit up, misses 2 weeks of school and has headaches and sleep problems for the next 50 years?  I have a feeling that eventually the medical community is going to come out and say that you need like 3 months off before you can play again after a concussion since having another before you have recovered is so bad. Throw in better detection and it will be almost impossible to field a team since 1/3 of your starters will be out for the season half way through the year.

I am guessing 95% of high schools lose money on football. It might generate a lot of revenue but the cost associated with it are just as high. Has nothing to do if the sport (sports in general) are worthwhile as money shouldn't be the reason for HS sports.

Yeah I will be proud.  Its his choice when he gets in HS.  We have the best football team in the state and being a winner, man what I would give.  I was stupid and didn't play.  It wasn't because I was afraid, I was too busy being lazy.

I think that is the extreme.  What % of HS players have long term effects from football.  I bet it is 1 out of every 1000, if that.  It really is your choice how you raise your kids.  I don't want mine to be afraid because of risk.  I think HS people driving a car is more of risk to their long term health than football.  They are idiots.

But I hope technology improves to protect players.  I think hits that are intended to hurt the other player shouldn't be tolorated.  If you go after someones head the punishment should be severe.  I think season long suspensions would be proper.  Coaches and players should know when coming in to break up the play should be hits to the chest.  I don't like dirty play.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by x129

Will you be proud of your boy when he gets lit up, misses 2 weeks of school and has headaches and sleep problems for the next 50 years?  I have a feeling that eventually the medical community is going to come out and say that you need like 3 months off before you can play again after a concussion since having another before you have recovered is so bad. Throw in better detection and it will be almost impossible to field a team since 1/3 of your starters will be out for the season half way through the year.

Being a bit dramatic aren't we?

Odds of that happening at high-school probably aren't any higher than odds of a kid getting into a bad car accident.

[newtogolf]

The press has sunk it's teeth into this and it's in the spotlight.  Concussions are part of football just like car accidents are part of NASCAR and CART.  If you sign up for the sport you sign up for the risks.

I'm all for inproving technology to reduce the trauma and believe coaches and owners should ensure proper medical treatment is provided to the players but the media is getting a bit carried away.

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Being a bit dramatic aren't we?

Odds of that happening at high-school probably aren't any higher than odds of a kid getting into a bad car accident.

I think you're way off. HS players can have huge differences in ability and size, and especially in competitive leagues you can see a few monstrous players out there. Mind you the defense at that level is subpar, but there are good athletes with the goal of putting a really big hit on people. Also if your school is competitive, you'll be putting him into more danger since contending teams are more ruthless and players who plan to play in college will try to showcase their abilities, including the rare standout defensive players. If they can get a couple big hits on film, it could mean a scholarship to a good program and they won't care if it destroys your boy in the process.

Also a bad car accident is a lot less preventable than a football injury. You couldn't realistically force him not to drive, but you could stop him from playing football, or at least relegate him to a less risky position. There aren't people on the road trying to crash into your son, but there will be people on the field who will want to take him out of the game if he has the ball or plays a skill position.

I won't tell you how to raise your boy and I commend that you don't seem to want to force him into it. Most players probably won't have any problems with injury and many will benefit from the experience. You'd have every reason to be proud of him if he plays or not, I'm sure. Just remember not everyone treats sports as a healthy competition, and that unfortunately includes coaches. You can't protect him on the field but you have the responsibility of making sure he takes safety seriously and keeps his equipment in order, as well as making sure he learns to be aware and protects himself. And conversely, if on defense make sure he knows how to make clean hits and doesn't get the violent mentality. Better he blow a play than hospitalize a player.