Do you judge your instructor by your own progress

[turbosdad]

Been with an instructor for 9 weekly lessons of one hour each, these are at a cost of 100 per lesson.  I am not sure that i am any better at any part of the game and my game scores verify this.  Shot a 102 today.

So what do you do.....by the way I practice three times per week, plus the lesson??  Im not consistent at anything.

Should I stay or should I go?

[onesome]

Before anyone says I'm wrong, I wonder why your taking lessons so close in time to each other, I think your instructor is expensive also, $50.00 an hour is sort of an average as far as I know ( this is what the pro charges at my course).

Your getting bombarded with too much info IMO if your taking lessons weekly. Once every couple weeks will give you time to digest and start showing some change so your instructor will know what your ready for next.

[LovinItAll]

Your getting bombarded with too much info IMO if your taking lessons weekly. Once every couple weeks will give you time to digest and start showing some change so your instructor will know what your ready for next.

This is just a personal opinion, but when I used to take golf lessons, I'd tell my instructor at the beginning that I wanted to work on no more than two things during any given lesson, and one would be fine, even if I was getting whatever change we were making right away. I think some instructors may feel like they need to give a lot of info so that players feel like they're getting their money's worth. Others will suggest a change, see their student make a couple of correct swings the 'right' way, and then they introduce the next change. I think it takes golfers a good bit of time to make any change, or maybe I'm just not that smart. I think of it like this: Tiger makes a swing change and it takes him a couple of YEARS to feel comfortable and to be able to execute the change consistently. I've got to think that Tiger knows as much about the golf swing as the majority of instructors, but more importantly, he can probably feel exactly what he's doing with the club at any stage of his swing. If he says, "It takes hundreds of thousands of balls before something new is ingrained in my swing.", what makes us feel that we can assimilate change faster? Once a week lessons seem pretty frequent unless you're working on the same one or two things and need the help to keep you on the right track. As for the price, it seems kind of steep, but it's such a relative thing that without more info, it's hard to say whether you may be paying too much. My wife took a few lessons when she first started playing. I swore I'd never give her swing advice, but what I did do was go to a couple of lessons with her and ask the instructor (someone I knew well) what I could remind her of on the range that he was helping her learn. He didn't have a problem with that (some instructors might, I don't know), and I parroted a few things he was teaching her when she was practicing. She got a free set of eyes and I was aware enough of what I couldn't help her with to not go there with her. Maybe you have a buddy that can help you do the same?

[gwlee7]

I don't think that you are necessarily spending too much money per lesson but, I do think you are taking them too frequently.  It takes a while to make any change that is being suggested.  I suggest you be certain that you've got the first piece or change down solid before moving on to the next piece.  You may not be exactly like me but, I worked on one thing for over a year before I moved to the next piece.  I know that it can be frustrating but, I stuck with it and it is now paying dividends.

[TourSpoon]

Go...

If you have 9 hours of one-on-one instruction in 9 weeks and can't say anything positive about this experience then you are wasting your time.

[Mr3Wiggle]

How has your swing changed?  Did you see it on tape when you started?  Have you seen it recently?

[rustyredcab]

"Do you judge your instructor by your own progress?"

Yes!

If you are expecting to be better after nine weeks and you are not better, then find an instructor who connects better with you -- in terms of results.

[mvmac]

No, progress is up to the student to put in the time and work to make the changes.  I judge an instructor by the information he/she provides and their ability to communication that information.  I think the instructors should have input or involvement in all 4 of the points I make below.  If the instructor communicates the info to a student properly, they understand why they're making the changes, what to look for to make sure they are doing it right and how to practice the piece. But it's up to the student to do the work and make the progress because the instructor isn't there when the student is practicing.  In the end it's up to me once I have that knowledge and game plan for how to improve.

So much goes into it.  This isn't just directed at you Turbo but something we should always be asking ourselves.  I do the same with my own game and it's up to me to put in the time for quality practice and stick with it.

- Does the instructor know what they are talking about?  A lot don't http://thesandtrap.com/t/59658/its-2012

- Are you practicing like this? http://thesandtrap.com/t/54840/simple-specific-slow-short-and-success-the-five-s-s-of-great-practice

- Do you understand why you are making these changes?

- How do you know that you are making the changes and not just making the same mistakes over and over?

Originally Posted by gwlee7

I don't think that you are necessarily spending too much money per lesson but, I do think you are taking them too frequently.  It takes a while to make any change that is being suggested.  I suggest you be certain that you've got the first piece or change down solid before moving on to the next piece.  You may not be exactly like me but, I worked on one thing for over a year before I moved to the next piece.  I know that it can be frustrating but, I stuck with it and it is now paying dividends.

Yes and it's been awesome to see your progress.  Tiger has spoken recently about making sure he feels "uncomfortable" when he practices, because that's how he knows he's doing it right.  If it feels "normal" he isn't doing it enough.  And you have to put in the reps, exactly what you have done gwlee7.

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

I think of it like this: Tiger makes a swing change and it takes him a couple of YEARS to feel comfortable and to be able to execute the change consistently. I've got to think that Tiger knows as much about the golf swing as the majority of instructors, but more importantly, he can probably feel exactly what he's doing with the club at any stage of his swing. If he says, "It takes hundreds of thousands of balls before something new is ingrained in my swing.", what makes us feel that we can assimilate change faster?

Well said

[glock35ipsc]

I'm on my third instructor.  I started playing almost 2 years ago.  The first two guys I got along good with, but we just never clicked teacher-student wise.  The first guy had video capabilities, but only used then once during my time with him (I started seeing him after my very first round, and for almost a year).  The second guy said he didn't need to video my swing, he could "fix" me with out one.  I only saw him two times.  It was just too obvious that he wasn't going to work.

The third guy..... I visited him one day out of curiosity, as I had found his name doing a Google search.  After talking for a few minutes, we went back into his studio and he had me hit some shots.  I ended up doing this for about a half hour, and he said he saw several things that needed tweaked.  All this at no charge.

I decided to come back for a lesson the following week.  (FWIW, he charges $65/hour which includes the entire lesson being recorded through the V1 video system, plus he burns the summary of the lesson onto a DVD and also emails it to me).  Even though he mentioned the several things from the past week, we focused on just two that lesson.  Things immediately improved because what I had been doing was just soooo wrong, that what he had me doing now felt so drastically different it was easy for me to know if I was not doing it the "new correct way".

My next lesson was one month later.  We worked on a couple other things, which along with the first changes, had automatically corrected a couple other problem areas that we hadn't even worked on yet!

I've seen him two other times since then, when some old habits started to creep back in and I wasn't sure why or how to fix them.

In the end, I'm the one who has made the progress, but it is definitely due in large part to this particular instructor.  He gave me the tools I needed to make the progress, and he gave them to me in a way that was easy to understand.  I can definitely say that without my current instructor, I would not have made the progress that I have this year.

EDIT: I agree too that once a week is just too much info to take in.  Once a month has worked well for me.

[sean_miller]

I absolutely 100% judge my instructor by my progress. It's my money and my game so everything else is irrelevant. I couldn't care less how much good knowledge he's putting out there if I ain't picking it up. And he should be able to sense my frustration and convey his information another way.

[reedf]

Originally Posted by mvmac

No, progress is up to the student to put in the time and work to make the changes.  I judge an instructor by the information he/she provides and their ability to communication that information.  In the end it's up to me once I have that knowledge and game plan for how to improve.

So much goes into it.  This isn't just directed at you Turbo but something we should always be asking ourselves.  I do the same with my own game and it's up to me to put in the time for quality practice and stick with it.

- Does the instructor know what they are talking about?  A lot don't http://thesandtrap.com/t/59658/its-2012

- Are you practicing like this? http://thesandtrap.com/t/54840/simple-specific-slow-short-and-success-the-five-s-s-of-great-practice

- Do you understand why you are making these changes?

- How do you know that you are making the changes and not just making the same mistakes over and over?

I've got to really disagree with you on this one mvmac! Don't take this wrong, I've seen lots of your posts and info and I know you are very knowledgable and probably a damn good instructor. But when I was taught to be an instructor (NOT for golf!), the creed was that if a student fails to learn it was due to the teacher failing to teach. Of course this requires a student that will also put in his due dilligence. The four bullet points you show, are all IMO the instructors responsibility, not the students. If you judge an instructor by the information he/she provides, then no one needs an instructor, read a book. The instructor is way more important than the black and white knowledge (as I am sure you realize). If the OP is not progressing, then his instructor has failed to teach. Not necessarily the he is a bad teacher, but the two have not connected and the process has become futile. Get a new instructor! One who can teach YOU!

[turbosdad]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I absolutely 100% judge my instructor by my progress. It's my money and my game so everything else is irrelevant. I couldn't care less how much good knowledge he's putting out there if I ain't picking it up. And he should be able to sense my frustration and convey his information another way.

Sean, I feel that you hit the nail on the head.  There should be some measurement or agreement on progress.  I spent years as a baseball hitting instructor and know full well that not everyone takes the instruction and absorbs it.  Sometimes it's a simple change of words or approach that is different for that individual.  I need to know why we are doing something and the what the expected result should be when there is success.  He should see the frustration and inconsistency and adjust the plan.  Really feel this guy is one size fits all.  When he asked for 1000 reps between lessons that is what I did.  It's not for lack of time spent on the PR.  By the way he has never told me how to practice, now that Im thinking about it.

I think I will go back to my first instructor.  In an hour we probably spent 30 minutes looking at swings, both mine and others and discussing the objectives and differences.  The only reason I left was he was absent minded and double booked lesson times.

appreciate all the advice.....

[nevets88]

I agree with mvmac - it is a two way street. Not everyone can be scratch and sometimes I question Hogan's quote that anyone can break 80. Lessons are not a magic bullet and the progress of a student depends on his/her innate ability and diligence.

To the OP's question, when I take a lesson, I usually take anywhere from 2-6 months to work on the changes. To gauge progress, if in the lesson, the video shows that you are making a more "correct" swing and hitting the right positions, hitting the ball more solidly on the swings with good contact, that's progress. You captured the essence of the lesson in a some swings, you go away trying to ingrain that.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by reedf

I've got to really disagree with you on this one mvmac!

No problem, I hope my response here can clarify my position more.  This is a good topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reedf

But when I was taught to be an instructor (NOT for golf!), the creed was that if a student fails to learn it was due to the teacher failing to teach. Of course this requires a student that will also put in his due dilligence. The four bullet points you show, are all IMO the instructors responsibility, not the students.

I also mentioned the instructor's ability to communicate the information.  I agree the instructors should have input or involvement in all 4 of the points I made.  If the instructor communicates the info to a student properly, they understand why they're making the changes, what to look for to make sure they are doing it right and how to practice the piece. But it's up to the student to do the work and make the progress because the instructor isn't there when the student is practicing.

Originally Posted by reedf

If you judge an instructor by the information he/she provides, then no one needs an instructor, read a book. The instructor is way more important than the black and white knowledge (as I am sure you realize). If the OP is not progressing, then his instructor has failed to teach. Not necessarily the he is a bad teacher, but the two have not connected and the process has become futile. Get a new instructor! One who can teach YOU!

You can read a book but not understand how to apply it to a student standing in front of you.  And different students need different pieces.  If a student does five things wrong, what is the priority piece to focus on?  What feel can you give to a student to help make that change?  Can't learn that in a book.  Like I said "the knowledge the instructor provides and how their ability to communicate it".

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbosdad

Sean, I feel that you hit the nail on the head.  There should be some measurement or agreement on progress.  I spent years as a baseball hitting instructor and know full well that not everyone takes the instruction and absorbs it.  Sometimes it's a simple change of words or approach that is different for that individual.  I need to know why we are doing something and the what the expected result should be when there is success.

Like I said, ability to communicate

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbosdad

He should see the frustration and inconsistency and adjust the plan.  Really feel this guy is one size fits all.  When he asked for 1000 reps between lessons that is what I did.  It's not for lack of time spent on the PR.  By the way he has never told me how to practice, now that Im thinking about it.

Then yes it may be time to seek instruction elsewhere

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by nevets88

I agree with mvmac - it is a two way street. Not everyone can be scratch and sometimes I question Hogan's quote that anyone can break 80. Lessons are not a magic bullet and the progress of a student depends on his/her innate ability and diligence.

To the OP's question, when I take a lesson, I usually take anywhere from 2-6 months to work on the changes. To gauge progress, if in the lesson, the video shows that you are making a more "correct" swing and hitting the right positions, hitting the ball more solidly on the swings with good contact, that's progress. You captured the essence of the lesson in a some swings, you go away trying to ingrain that.

Can't say how other people answered the OP's question, but I assumed he meant how would we personally judge an instructor. I think the OP is confident he was putting in the work or has at least a modicum of talent. He wasn't clicking with the guy and is cutting ties. Good for him. It's his money. Doesn't mean the instructor is not a good one for someone else, but for the OP he's as good as useless.

[Beachcomber]

Absolutely, I gauge my success/improvement over time and factor the coach/instructor into the success equation .  But I'd say it is 75% student... And 25% coach... Meaning your success is greatly impacted by your own dedication and tenacity.  And having a solid instructor is only a quarter of the equation.

(1.) Realize that golf is hard.  Mentally, you need to understand that obtaining a perfect swing and shooting under par is probably an unrealistic goal for a beginner.  It may take years to get to where you want to be.  But just like the movie 'What about Bob?' - it's baby steps!

(2.) You need to be dedicated.  Put the time in - and you will see positive results.  It sounds like you are putting the time in - which is good.  But make sure you are spending your time wisely.  Not just banging balls.

(3.) Having a solid instructor - you can discuss these items with them, and they can help point you down a path to play better golf - but giving you subtle tips and drills to work on to improve or eliminate the flaw(s) found within the swing.

Just last night I was at the range.  Typically I practice with head phones because I hate listening to all the different folks around me talk and try and give instruction to one another.  Especially when 98% of them have no clue what they are talking about.  But last night, I did see a father working with his son - who was ~ 5 or 6yrs old.  I was really impressed with the instruction of this father.  He kept working on his sons right arm position.  That was it.  Every single ball - just continued to help his son get his right arm into position.  One item, that was it.  Focused - over and over and over and over and over again.

The point is... Making a change within your golf swing takes hitting thousands of golf balls... Making thousands of precise movements.  Again, over and over and over again.  Until it becomes an unconscious movement.  You can do it every time, without even thinking about that movement.  Therefore, I agree with gwlee7 on his comment that you are taking lessons - far too quickly .  You have to get these items ingrained into your brain and make it become a mechanical movement which is natural before you move to the next move within the swing.  And if you are taking lessons every single week, you are probably getting information overload - and not focusing on that core element enough.

Lastly, watch this video of Lynn Blake.  From the one minute mark to the 4:30 mark...  It is a thing of beauty.  Honestly, this is the type of practice that if you are disciplined enough to ingrain into your daily routine - and practice with purpose... Then you will - undoubtedly become a better golfer.  Period.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

This is just a personal opinion, but when I used to take golf lessons, I'd tell my instructor at the beginning that I wanted to work on no more than two things during any given lesson, and one would be fine, even if I was getting whatever change we were making right away.

You shouldn't have to tell your instructor that kind of stuff. He should already do that for everyone. Lousy instructors often give the most "instruction."

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

I've got to think that Tiger knows as much about the golf swing as the majority of instructors, but more importantly, he can probably feel exactly what he's doing with the club at any stage of his swing.

He probably does know as much as most instructors, but most instructors don't know much about the golf swing. So I agree, but probably not in the way you thought I might. :D

And "feel isn't real" applies to Tiger Woods too.

The fact that Tiger has an instructor says a lot, though.

Originally Posted by LovinItAll

Once a week lessons seem pretty frequent unless you're working on the same one or two things and need the help to keep you on the right track.

Once a week is fine IF:

1) Your real "lessons" are actually once every five to six weeks (or thereabouts)

2) Every other "lesson" is actually just supervised practice.

But that's not the case here, so... no, once a week is way, way, way too often. Find a new instructor (because you seem to be putting in the work) because you're not improving, and when you find the new guy, don't take lessons as frequently.

Originally Posted by mvmac

No, progress is up to the student to put in the time and work to make the changes. I judge an instructor by the information he/she provides and their ability to communication that information.

What Mike is saying here is that I can give a student an awesome lesson. One thing to work on, maybe two, and they can start making much better swings and hitting the ball with a more reliable pattern, etc.

Then the student leaves, never practices, plays golf, reverts to their old swing in no time, blames me, and tries another instructor whereby the entire process repeats itself.

Was I at fault? Perhaps for not stressing the importance of practice and how easily you can revert back to your old motion if you aren't diligent. But for the student's continued suckiness, overall? No. They aren't doing what they learned they had to do. It doesn't matter if I sent him pictures, a video summary of the lesson, and made him write it down on a blackboard 100 times. I can't "make" people do things.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54000/improvement-loop applies a little bit here.

Whether there's such a thing as "muscle memory" or not, the simple fact is it takes a LOT of work to change a motion that's fairly well ingrained.

Originally Posted by reedf

But when I was taught to be an instructor (NOT for golf!), the creed was that if a student fails to learn it was due to the teacher failing to teach.

That doesn't really apply to physical skills that require practice to ingrain. It might apply a little to things like math (even math needs to be practiced), but it doesn't apply to physical skills.

Now, good and great instructors tend to be able to more easily reach people, but even the best teacher in the world is going to be helpless if the student leaves and just decides not to do anything, not to practice, not to consider what they learned, etc.

Originally Posted by reedf

Of course this requires a student that will also put in his due dilligence.

That's the important part. Did you not read the rest of Mike's post? :)

Originally Posted by reedf

If you judge an instructor by the information he/she provides, then no one needs an instructor, read a book.

Wrong, because the instructor provides context-sensitive information. A book has no idea what the contest of the situation is. A book is ALL of the information, not the one specific bit of information that's necessary at that time and in the context.

Originally Posted by reedf

The instructor is way more important than the black and white knowledge (as I am sure you realize). If the OP is not progressing, then his instructor has failed to teach.

See above. I disagree.

And I'm content with my track record. Our students improve far more than anyone else's. But we still have some that just don't do what they need to do. They think if they learn it in their brain then they've learned to do it physically too, and that's just not true.

Case in point, this guy: http://thesandtrap.com/t/47743/guy-wastes-3k-on-golf-instruction-never-applies-himself-blames-instructors . Are all of the instructors he ever talked to bad? Nope. I know many of them.

[rustyredcab]

I've had a few private lessons from a few different instructors. They were fine and the instructors were excellent and got excellent results with many students.

Then I discovered golf school. In school, I had many instructors. They walked down the range when we worked on the range, and knew from their peers what we were working on. They would often suggest feelings and ideas to achieve the same result using different words. Sometimes they said things that worked for me. Sometimes not. But soon enough, one of them would find the way to get the point through to me and it was wonderful.

This can be done with one person but is a rare talent. My voice teacher had that gift and taught me using different imagines and suggestions when one did not work. Many classic voice teacher concepts alluded me. When they did, she kept at it until I could do and feel what she wanted.

Bottom line, you and your teacher need to understand each other. If you take lessons, try to do what you are told, and just don't get it. Maybe your excellent teacher is not good for you. Find someone new -- or go to golf school.