Shaping the Ball

[rehmwa]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

unless you can dislocate your shoulder every swing.

Been trying real hard not to swing like that any more........

"round ball, flat face.......how hard can it be?"

[dchoye]

5 hours ago, Lihu said:

I don't understand how this procedure will promote a fade or draw?

It's entirely feel for me.  i tend to have a very dominant left arm and if I walk with club with left hand I tend to block/slice to the right.  

Walking into the ball with club in hand with my right.  It reminds me to allow my right arm to extend and turn over the left and helps reinforce a draw release for me

Edited April 20, 2016 by dchoye

[Lihu]

14 minutes ago, dchoye said:

It's entirely feel for me.  i tend to have a very dominant left arm and if I walk with club with left hand I tend to block/slice to the right.  

Walking into the ball with club in hand with my right.  It reminds me to allow my right arm to extend and turn over the left and helps reinforce a draw release for me

Thanks for explaining.

[rehmwa]

I pretty much shape entirely with path.

1 - set the face to my start line at address

2 - swing path as needed

Goal is to control my path, but face is simply to return to whatever I had at address

IMHO - trying to vary my 'release' to get a specific face at impact scares me.  So do sock puppets and clowns, though, so what do I know?

Strangely enough, face control drills helps me better keep control of what I like to think of as a rather unvarying face distribution.

[JonMA1]

6 hours ago, rehmwa said:

IMHO - trying to vary my 'release' to get a specific face at impact scares me.  So do sock puppets and clowns, though, so what do I know?

You know enough to fear those which should be feared. ($@^@ing clowns!!!)

As far as keeping the path the same, I have a real hard time doing that. The ball starts fairly straight but the flight varies without anything feeling different. The million dollar question for me is... what's causing the inconsistent swing path?

On April 19, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Golfingdad said:

Flag is up on the little shelf in back?  100% guarantee that my ball will be on the lower tier.

Flag is in the valley down below?  Hey, look at that - it is easy to hit my approach onto this upper tier. 

Yes, this happens to me all the time. I mean, if you consider aiming for the center of the green and ending up in the woods the same thing, it happens all the time.

[rehmwa]

13 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

As far as keeping the path the same, I have a real hard time doing that. The ball starts fairly straight but the flight varies without anything feeling different. The million dollar question for me is... what's causing the inconsistent swing path?

Post a swing and get help.

IMHO - Path is a LOT easier to control than face.  (In terms of angle at impact).  YMMV 

So for shaping, that's why I try to affect path, but keep face constant (as best I can).

For both, control equals doing good drills and having a decent baseline (centerline) swing to start with.  Learning to vary them (on purpose) also leads to improved ability to hold them steady too.

[dchoye]

On April 20, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Lihu said:

Thanks for explaining.

For me it's either a draw release or held off release which goes straight (or straight right or curves slightly tight)That's why I don't understand faders who describe a fade release. Shouldn't fade be so that the release be held off?  

Another example where "release" means something different to many different golfers 

[JonMA1]

On April 21, 2016 at 11:44 AM, rehmwa said:

Post a swing and get help.

IMHO - Path is a LOT easier to control than face.  (In terms of angle at impact).  YMMV 

So for shaping, that's why I try to affect path, but keep face constant (as best I can).

For both, control equals doing good drills and having a decent baseline (centerline) swing to start with.  Learning to vary them (on purpose) also leads to improved ability to hold them steady too.

There are days when my path is "locked-in" (relative to my skill level). On these days, I can actually hit a push draw to the target. The variance I get might be due to something other keys 4 and 5  - tempo, failure to get weight forward....

The point is, the cause of an undesired ball flight and starting line isn't the same from shot to shot or day to day. Posting a swing to get help is probably not going to fix the myriad of issues. But I agree with you that doing good drills and developing a decent baseline (if I'm understanding that correctly) certainly will. It's just going to take time.

As far as manipulating the face, I don't do this through impact. I try to vary the path to get the desired the flight.

[RFKFREAK]

I have no idea how I have never read this thread before.

Great thread - and I love how easily illustrated the OP was.  

Now I have to get myself on a TM or FS and get my numbers to see where my swing path and face angle is. 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 4/21/2016 at 9:51 PM, JonMA1 said:

You know enough to fear those which should be feared. ($@^@ing clowns!!!)

As far as keeping the path the same, I have a real hard time doing that. The ball starts fairly straight but the flight varies without anything feeling different. The million dollar question for me is... what's causing the inconsistent swing path?

Yes, this happens to me all the time. I mean, if you consider aiming for the center of the green and ending up in the woods the same thing, it happens all the time.

The thing you may need to consider is that it might not be your swing path, it's the angle of your clubface to your swingpath. Depending on that, you can hit slices, fades, straight balls, draws, and duck hooks, depending on the angle of the clubface to the swingpath.

[dchoye]

Just an update on my previous posts. Played really well other day and I set up visualizing a high draw . Just saw the trajectory and line up the tee ball according to my vision.

On the flip side I had a  tough to playing a high fade. Best I could do was just hit a high straight shot. I really could not visualize a high fade...so I setup like I would to a low slice and then alignment myself to spot on the ground in front of the ball and rotated to the spot rather than roll to my target like I would with a draw.

Also I still get this "hold feeling "with a straight shot. If I don't I get a feeling like a ?reverse roll.

Edited May 12, 2016 by dchoye

[Gaetano Fasano]

Fading the ball seems to be more difficult to me. To do that I have to manipulate my address position heavily to the left and trying not to close my clubface, keeping to swing outward as well. I often get to pull shots due to this.  

Standing square parallel, it's like natural golf ball flight should be the draw.

[rehmwa]

2 hours ago, Gaetano Fasano said:

Fading the ball seems to be more difficult to me. To do that I have to manipulate my address position heavily to the left and trying not to close my clubface, keeping to swing outward as well. I often get to pull shots due to this.  

Standing square parallel, it's like natural golf ball flight should be the draw.

Pretty normal for someone with a natural draw to find fading to be harder to do than hitting a draw shot - possibly because to path out->in you might have to let your arms get out a bit from your comfort swing.  I bet there's a better way....

For me - (I (try to) set up square to what I want my starting line, then shape with path only.  In short, I aim right and try to hit a straight-draw - rather than aim at my target and try to hit a push-draw, etc etc.....

So for me, a fade is just aim left and try to path a bit more out->in than my stock shot.  out->in is a lot harder path for me and I do have to focus on the square face at contact since it tends to try to make my hands roll over earlier so I counter by thinking about laying off of the 'release'....(I have the same face thought for any fade that do for longer clubs for some reason.  I don't know why - "hold off on the release) Also, I tend to overdo it on path for fades and that gives additional issues with possibly chunking or at least poor contact. 

(seems easier for the same concept for drawing - aim right, square face to start, and path in->out - I just feel like I'm controlling my swing better, it's a little tighter to my body)

[mvmac]

On 8/14/2012 at 11:04 AM, iacas said:

95% of the shots a pro plays (Tiger Woods may be one of a group of very small exceptions, and even he isn't as different as many think) are their stock shot. They don't curve much, but if a player is a drawer of the golf ball, 95% of their shots draw. It's the most reliable, dependable way to play - with a pattern.

Kenny Perry (a pronounced drawer) was playing at Doral a few years ago and someone asked him what he does with a pin on the right side of the green. He said he aimed at the flag and if his ball didn't draw, he got lucky, but otherwise he was content to have a 25-footer for birdie.

Then the person asked him what he did when the pin was on the left side of the green. "I make birdie" he said. :)

You'll get better, faster if you develop a pattern. Shaping the ball is over-rated - not even the pros do it all that often. Shaping the ball can get you out of trouble. It can be a good shot when the ball needs to be worked around an obstacle (reaching a par five in two, the tee shot on a dogleg, etc.). But if you've got a look at the flag, take the Kenny Perry approach: aim for your shot cone and play your pattern.

Saw this today and thought I'd share. Even though the 11th hole is a dogleg right both Rahm and Rory hit draws and found the fairway. They stuck with their stock pattern.

[lastings]

On 4/7/2017 at 2:43 PM, mvmac said:

Saw this today and thought I'd share. Even though the 11th hole is a dogleg right both Rahm and Rory hit draws and found the fairway. They stuck with their stock pattern.

yep..  it's all about consistency.   Jack Nicklaus and Ben Hogan always played a sight fade, for the same reason.  because straight is unpredictable.  If you always try to play straight, a mishit might draw, it might fade.  you open yourself up to trouble in both sides of your target line.  but, if you always play a bend, you only have to worry about how far it will bend, rather than which way it will bend.   draw-fade, it doesn't really matter, just find a repeatable swing that you can be very consistent with and hit it the same every single time.   

[Jack Watson]

Re Hogan always playing a slight fade listen in on Shells world of golf match commentary.  You will hear a lot "he's bringing it in right to left."

I know very well Nicklaus said it's best to curve the ball one way or another but he was using very different equipment then. 

I think all golfers tend to want what they don't have.  I know when I was a slicer I wished to draw it.  Then once I was drawing it I wished I could aim left again but it was gone lol.  I still remember my first ever round in the seventies.  I had been hitting nothing but ,draws for quite some time and it was exhausting mentally.  Finally I said screw it let the ball fade if that's what it wants to do.  That was a personal best on fir and gir at that time.

I have to echo the threads posters who advocate playing your shot shape almost all the time.

Ive only ever played with one golfer who was effective at shaping both ways and trajectory and he played the tour in Europe years ago.

I think shape depends on equipment choice a lot also.  Modern gi irons and balls like a Pinnacle gold just aren't gonna curve much.

I was taught to try and build so that the setup and balls starting line was as neutral as possible.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Jack Watson

[oregongolfguy]

One of the best points i ever saw was with a frequent playing partner of mine.  He was a 10ish handicap player,  Was a pretty good ball striker playing a draw, not nearly as much with a fade.  Yet, he was a guy that insisted on trying to move the ball both ways all the time.  

  It took me quite a while but i finally convinced him to just concentrate on playing the draw.  I told him that he should be a much better player then he is and the two way stuff was costing him alot of shots.  Within a few months his handicap started tumbling down.  He is now a much better player then i am as he should be.  He owns his draw, takes the right side of the course completely out of play.  

  Now if i can just get him to work on a few other LSW course managment thoughts he would really be rolling.

[Killa]

I have been thinking a lot about shaping the ball and I have a few thoughts that I'd like you experts to answer. In all of the wall of text below assume that the player is aligned straight parallel at the target.

Iron play - in my mind, the "perfect" shot with an iron or anything other than a driver should be a  "push"-draw. So now let me expand on that - when we hit that perfect shot our path is from the inside. So for a righty the path is 2-4º to the right and the face is 1-2º right of target (or left of path). The club face will take care of direction and the difference between path and club face will give us the rotation needed for the draw. 

So how do we achieve this - when we strike the ball from the inside out and if we imagine the club travels on a circular plane (it doesn't but let's simplify) we will hit the ball on the downward part of the swing before the club reaches the lowest point that is also the point that is furthest away from our body. That in itself will take care of the path direction and should also take care of club face direction (it would square up to the target at the lowest point but since we hit before that we got that 1-2º right). And it will add the negative AoA that we want with every club other than driver. So the ball will start (push) right because of the 1-2º club face and then draw because of the difference between path and club face. 

 

Now driver - the same persons shot should be a "pull"-fade. When we apply the same "circle" and start with the assumption that unlike irons we want the AoA to be positive this means that we are already past our lowest point that is furthest away from our body. Since the club head is now traveling back towards our body and our alignment the path will be 2-4º to the left (-2- -4º) but the club should be opened just a touch so it's not parallel to the path but rather -1 -2º. This should also help with the positive AoA. 

 

So assuming (yeah I know what ass - u - me means :) ) that I'm correct in the above, there should be no way for a player to hit a "correct" fade with an iron unless he is coming over the top with his swing (or by changing his setup thereby losing distance since he has to open the club face to shape the ball). Am I correct in my thoughts?