Shaping the Ball

[Jakester23]

So I went to the range yesterday and tryed to hit draws. I was trying to set up right of target and have the club face pointed out right and I couldnt seem to get it to draw unless it was a pull draw. I used a bunch of clubs but all longer then 8. Can you explain how far right of your target your club and feet are not in degrees but in relationship to a target. What I mean it if you have a green and you want to hit a draw into that green do you aim your feet right side middle right or right of the green and where is the club face as well thanks.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Jakester23

So I went to the range yesterday and tryed to hit draws. I was trying to set up right of target and have the club face pointed out right and I couldnt seem to get it to draw unless it was a pull draw. I used a bunch of clubs but all longer then 8. Can you explain how far right of your target your club and feet are not in degrees but in relationship to a target. What I mean it if you have a green and you want to hit a draw into that green do you aim your feet right side middle right or right of the green and where is the club face as well thanks.

It depends on your swingpath relative to your foot or stance line. If you have an out to in swingpath then you're not going to be able to hit a draw with your clubface right of your foot line.

[Jakester23]

Maybe I'm going to have to tape myself and put it on here so I can get some feedback

[JonMA1]

Originally Posted by iacas

Downswing Path - I hinted at it above but you can do it in a more extreme fashion too. For example, on the downswing, if you shift your left arm well out away from your body (chest) and then "bury the handle" low and left (swing "low and left"), you'll shift the path well to the left. This is the move most slicers make (in conjunction with some others, like having their weight back too far). Conversely, if I want to change the path to be more rightward, I might keep my left arm tight to my chest and then explode it off my chest high and towards first base at impact.

This is good stuff. Thank you for posting it. My instructor told me about ball flight laws and it seemed to open up a lot in the way of self-improvement. At some point, I may get to where I purposely shape the ball for doglegs, etc. But for now, I use this just to try and keep the ball flight straight. I have to really close the club face and concentrate on an in-to-out path to keep it straight. I realize this is probably a band-aid fix to a flaw, but it seems to work pretty well. It's nice when you can apply a theory (or law) and have it actually work.

I have a question regarding angle of descent and how it applies to ball flight. When I keep my hands lower at the top of the backswing of my driver, I tend to get more of draw-like flight (all else being equal). Coming down at a steeper angle tends to produce a slice. Can you comment on this? Thanks.

[tomvk77]

Originally Posted by Jakester23

Maybe I'm going to have to tape myself and put it on here so I can get some feedback

That will work!!! haha.

but basically it comes down to the amount off draw you want to give the ball.

And remember if you stand right off target clubface should be pointing directly at target.

you can also try to put the ball a little bit further back in your stands, so more to the right foot.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by Jakester23

So I went to the range yesterday and tryed to hit draws. I was trying to set up right of target and have the club face pointed out right and I couldnt seem to get it to draw unless it was a pull draw. I used a bunch of clubs but all longer then 8. Can you explain how far right of your target your club and feet are not in degrees but in relationship to a target. What I mean it if you have a green and you want to hit a draw into that green do you aim your feet right side middle right or right of the green and where is the club face as well thanks.

You hit draws when you pulled it probably because you shut the face down in relation to the path.  I would suggest trying to set up with your feet square to the target.  Align the club just right of the target, and swing like you are pushing the ball right of the face angle.  The ball will start left of where you have swung and will draw to the target.

Originally Posted by JonMA1

This is good stuff. Thank you for posting it. My instructor told me about ball flight laws and it seemed to open up a lot in the way of self-improvement. At some point, I may get to where I purposely shape the ball for doglegs, etc. But for now, I use this just to try and keep the ball flight straight. I have to really close the club face and concentrate on an in-to-out path to keep it straight. I realize this is probably a band-aid fix to a flaw, but it seems to work pretty well. It's nice when you can apply a theory (or law) and have it actually work.

I have a question regarding angle of descent and how it applies to ball flight. When I keep my hands lower at the top of the backswing of my driver, I tend to get more of draw-like flight (all else being equal). Coming down at a steeper angle tends to produce a slice. Can you comment on this? Thanks.

Coming down on the ball should mean you are swinging out.  This should not produce a slice.  If you are hitting down on the ball and have a slice I think your arms are either lagging to far behind your body our your face angle at impact is not correct in relation to your path.  Often people come down steeper by coming over the top when you should be doing it by your hands/arms moving quickly enough to have forward shaft lean at impact.

[JonMA1]

Originally Posted by cipher

Coming down on the ball should mean you are swinging out.  This should not produce a slice.  If you are hitting down on the ball and have a slice I think your arms are either lagging to far behind your body our your face angle at impact is not correct in relation to your path.  Often people come down steeper by coming over the top when you should be doing it by your hands/arms moving quickly enough to have forward shaft lean at impact.

Thanks for the reply cipher. Should I have a forward lean with my driver? I try to do this with my other clubs but for some reason, I thought the driver was a bit different in that I play the ball off my front foot and try to keep my upper body behind the ball. Perhaps this is my problem?

[cipher]

Originally Posted by JonMA1

Thanks for the reply cipher. Should I have a forward lean with my driver? I try to do this with my other clubs but for some reason, I thought the driver was a bit different in that I play the ball off my front foot and try to keep my upper body behind the ball. Perhaps this is my problem?

I am the wrong person to ask on that one, maybe Erik or Mike can help us out.  Through my lessons I have strictly been working on irons.  Yesterday I was able to work my irons and fairways any way I wanted, but had very little control over my driver(by very little I mean I had a bit too much draw on a couple and blocked one slightly).  I believe the answer is not really but I am not sure.  I am not sure if you can hit up on the ball that way, with the hands forward, I would say no?  This is a good question though and I would be curious to know what the correct answer as well.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JonMA1

This is good stuff. Thank you for posting it. My instructor told me about ball flight laws and it seemed to open up a lot in the way of self-improvement. At some point, I may get to where I purposely shape the ball for doglegs, etc. But for now, I use this just to try and keep the ball flight straight. I have to really close the club face and concentrate on an in-to-out path to keep it straight. I realize this is probably a band-aid fix to a flaw, but it seems to work pretty well. It's nice when you can apply a theory (or law) and have it actually work.

I have a question regarding angle of descent and how it applies to ball flight. When I keep my hands lower at the top of the backswing of my driver, I tend to get more of draw-like flight (all else being equal). Coming down at a steeper angle tends to produce a slice. Can you comment on this? Thanks.

First off the, I'm not sure if hitting down is a feel or something that was actually measured.  I'm going to get into some 3D ball flight stuff.  Let's assume you were hitting down with the driver.  The decent creates an "out", but with most golfers who swing too far down, they also swing too far across.  So the out created by the down doesn't override the leftward path, resulting in a slice.  And then there are other aspects like where you hit it on the face and what the angle of the face was.  But swinging down and across tends to be related.

So when the arms are lower on the backswing, it seems like it makes it easier for you to swing up and have a swing direction to the right.

Originally Posted by JonMA1

Thanks for the reply cipher. Should I have a forward lean with my driver? I try to do this with my other clubs but for some reason, I thought the driver was a bit different in that I play the ball off my front foot and try to keep my upper body behind the ball. Perhaps this is my problem?

You can have some forward shaft lean and have a positive AoA with the driver.  Basically to hit up on the driver, just play the ball off your left shoulder/left toe.  Will feel very forward to most golfers but that's how you can make your "normal" swing and swing up. Not trying to swing up by hanging up and flipping at it.  Notice the two guys below, they are "behind it" at set-up, so if they make a pivot with a steady head they'll still be behind it at impact.  Good thread to check out as well http://thesandtrap.com/t/44307/hitting-up-or-down-with-the-driver-in-an-inline-pattern

[JonMA1]

The makes sense on the club path and face angle. When I'm going through my practice swings at the tee, it's funny how I can see a great deal of difference regarding the swing path from one swing to the next even though the two swings feel the same. If I have one thought during my shot, it's usually "inside to out". As far as my club face angle, as I mentioned before, I have to really close the face at address for correct ball flight. This indicates to me I'm not releasing the club properly on my shot????

Regarding the pics, that looks more like what I've been taught and how I have been swinging my driver. I haven't video taped my driver swing, but it feels like what I see here. I have a bit of a lean back at address, and I try to keep that spine angle throughout the swing by keeping my head behind the ball at impact. When I get home, I'll check out where my hands are at impact. Also, I'll read the article you sent when I can better concentrate.

One trick or drill I found was to lay a tee on the ground a couple of inches behind the ball. That's where I want the bottom of my arc to be. I usually do a good job of hitting the driver cleanly even if the ball flight is incorrect*.

*Just a note about a crappy player like me giving advice - I don't want to come off as a know-it-all who can't play well. It's just that I'd rather share some of the little things that worked for me as opposed to always asking for advice from other members and moderators without giving back. As always, thanks to everyone for their advice.

[Jakester23]

Does forward shaft lean help create a draw or fade?

[cipher]

Originally Posted by Jakester23

Does forward shaft lean help create a draw or fade?

Draw

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Jakester23

Does forward shaft lean help create a draw or fade?

Originally Posted by cipher

Draw

Actually, I think the proper answer to the question is "yes." ;)

All top players have the 5 keys.  Keys 1,2 and 3 basically combine to give you proper forward shaft lean.  However, all top players don't draw the ball.  Quite a lot of them hit fades as their primary shot, and they're certainly not flipping to do it.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Jakester23

Does forward shaft lean help create a draw or fade?

Originally Posted by cipher

Draw

The reason is having a flat left wrist, forward shaft lean, with the weight forward allows the golfer to hit the ball before the club head's low point.  So at impact the club is traveling down, OUT and forward.  Obviously there have been great players that have faded the ball, how did they do it with the handle forward?  They just aimed their bodies left, Nicklaus, Couples, Trevino, pre-setting their path left.  Others might have just swung more left, but that is a small group.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Actually, I think the proper answer to the question is "yes." ;)

All top players have the 5 keys.  Keys 1,2 and 3 basically combine to give you proper forward shaft lean.  However, all top players don't draw the ball.  Quite a lot of them hit fades as their primary shot, and they're certainly not flipping to do it.

Correct, no one intentionally flips at it to make the ball cut.

[Jakester23]

I play a fade almost entirely but I want the draw in my bag. I had a par 3 yesterday with a slice wind with bunkers left and short with a back left pin. It the perfect situation to hit a draw into the green it took almost all of the trouble out of play if excecuted properly.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Actually, I think the proper answer to the question is "yes." ;)

All top players have the 5 keys.  Keys 1,2 and 3 basically combine to give you proper forward shaft lean.  However, all top players don't draw the ball.  Quite a lot of them hit fades as their primary shot, and they're certainly not flipping to do it.

Get what you are saying but with a standard set up, face angle and inside out path it will be a draw.  I hit 3 or 4 cuts into greens yesterday by opening my stance and club face slightly.  With a more neutral set up it promotes a draw, as you know, which was what I was getting at.  To hit a cut with forward shaft lean you have to change another component as Mike is saying, that is why for me the answer is draw.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Jakester23

I play a fade almost entirely but I want the draw in my bag. I had a par 3 yesterday with a slice wind with bunkers left and short with a back left pin. It the perfect situation to hit a draw into the green it took almost all of the trouble out of play if excecuted properly.

Might not be getting enough weight forward at impact, ties closely to shaft lean.

[Jakester23]

What percentage of weight would you say should be on your front foot at address and at impact?