Why I hate the Blue tees at short courses

[Grumpter]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

1: Most players have a 5 wood or something, 3i to 3w is a big gap. And if you can't hit the 3 then it's more like 4/5 iron to 3w gap, over 60 yards. How is that the greenskeeper's fault?

2: If you can't hit your long irons well, or are too short to hit something comfortable, move up. Your 5 iron should be in the 160-170 range I assume? You shouldn't generally play over 6,000 yards (rule of thumb is 5i distance x 36), which puts you in white tee range.

3: Look at the scorecard beforehand; usually if there are a lot of 200+ par 3s, it's likely you're in for a grind and should move up. It's not like the yardages are a surprise.

4: I am one of the few players, apparently, who actually like using all his clubs. Hitting the long irons is a challenge I like to take on, and I love hitting a 200+y shot onto a green. 150y par 3s are 9 irons for me all day and it's boring as hell. And if there's anything 230ish, I know I'm picking up a stroke against everyone else if I reach. No one says you're supposed to make birdie. As long as par is makeable, there's no reason to complain.

5: No one said you had to hit from the same set of tees every hole, if you're playing for fun just hit from the whites on par 3s or whatever. Your handicap calculation might not be accurate, but you won't complain about it any longer. Just submit all the rounds from "normal" courses.

I don't notice any problems with yardages at my local courses, usually they have the intention of par 3s you can hit with a 9i, 7i, and 5i of the typical distance for the tees, and one with a gimmick or that's the same as another. If you don't like the course, don't play there.

1) Yes I said I could carry a hybrid but also explained why I don't. If I play my 3 wood off the turf and take a 3 quarter swing I can fairly consistently shorten my shot to 225 yards in the air. That's a 35 yard gap.

2) If I move up then it's Driver/Wedge almost every par 4. ugh. I play my 5 iron at 175 yards.

3) see point 2.

4) I don't mind hitting my long irons at all. However I also don't like hitting a 3 iron or more on 3 out of the 4 par 4's. Add that yardage to some of the par 4's so they aren't all Driver/Wedge holes.

5) My Saturday group we play from the blue's. That's the agreement. One guy in our group plays his 5 iron about 195 and it's painful for him to play the shorter distance (the shorter distance is also boring to me when the rest of the course is all drivers and wedges).

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

How "short" is this course that it has more than one 215 yard par 3?

more than one 195+ par 3's, I didn't say 3 par 3's at 215+. It's not just one course and they seem to be around 6300 (give or take) from the back tee's. Most seem to have maybe 2 par 4's over 400 yards so it's mostly driver/wedge play.

I should have said "~ 200 yard"it's a 1/2 club distance at that length for most players who don't likely generate enough spin to hold a ball landing at 195 short of 215, but either way, it's not a course setup I've ever seen. Most courses around here that measure less than 6500 have either no 200 yard par 3s or maybe 1.

Couldn't you tee off with your 200 yard club on the sub 200 yarders?

[chilly]

When choosing tees for a foursome, I usually look at the Par3s first since they are the most inflexible holes, obviously.  Rule of thumb, as long as the shortest hitter can get there with a 3h/3i....it's fine.

Seems like an odd layout to have three ~200yd Par 3s on a 6300yd course.

[boogielicious]

I don't mind a 200 yard par 3 if there is at least some margin for error.  There is one on my league course that you can only go right and long into a bunker.  Short is marsh, left is marsh and trees, long is fescue and right is woods.  You basically have to aim for the front edge of the green to have a chance at par.  Also, there is a tree that blocks the right side of the green.  Tough hole.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

How "short" is this course that it has more than one 215 yard par 3?

more than one 195+ par 3's, I didn't say 3 par 3's at 215+. It's not just one course and they seem to be around 6300 (give or take) from the back tee's. Most seem to have maybe 2 par 4's over 400 yards so it's mostly driver/wedge play.

I should have said "~ 200 yard"it's a 1/2 club distance at that length for most players who don't likely generate enough spin to hold a ball landing at 195 short of 215, but either way, it's not a course setup I've ever seen. Most courses around here that measure less than 6500 have either no 200 yard par 3s or maybe 1.

Couldn't you tee off with your 200 yard club on the sub 200 yarders?

EDIT - meant using the ~ 200 yard club on the sub 400 yard par 4s.

[0ldblu3]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

...

2: If you can't hit your long irons well, or are too short to hit something comfortable, move up. Your 5 iron should be in the 160-170 range I assume? You shouldn't generally play over 6,000 yards (rule of thumb is 5i distance x 36), which puts you in white tee range.

...

I hadn't heard that rule of thumb before, very interesting. I'll check into it to see if I am in the right place according to the rule...

[B-Con]

My local course is shorter and has two sets of tees, white and blue. The par-3s are reasonable, two in the 180s, a 130s, and a 150s (from the blues). [url=http://plantationgolf.net/ready-to-play/scorecard]Scorecard link[/url]. Three, play into the wind though and two have very deep greens, so effective yardage on those is 20 more 1/4 of the time.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by lumpuckeroo

I don't think all courses that are on the short side have only long par 3's.  My home course plays right at 6000 yards with at 215 yd, 195 yd, 165 yd, and 135 yd par 3.  I like this, one of the reasons I wanted to join the course, they have a variety of hole lengths.  And not with just the par 3's, both par 5's are long 530+, but the par 4's vary a lot also, from a couple of 420+ to a couple of 320-, you will hit every club in your bag.

Yeah I like this kind of course a lot.  6000 yards feels a little short for me unless it's very challenging course, but my favorite kind of course is exactly as you describe in the 6500-6700 yard range.  I like having at least mix of distance for par 3s, and I like having at least one par 5 that I can pretty easily make it in two with a solid drive and long iron, and at least one par 5 where even my best Driver/3W combo won't get me there, or at least the green's well enough protected that it turns going for the green with the 3W into a big risk/reward play.  And a wide range of par 4s is fun too.  I like having a par 4 or two that would probably be a par 5 on a shorter, easy track, and a par 4 or two where longer hitters can drive on or close to the green but it's a risky play.

It's all bout variety.  Nothing worse than a wide open muni with overly similar hole types and lengths where you only use like 6 clubs all day on all the par 4s and 5s.

[Spyder]

Grumpter,

Those kinds of courses aren't all that bad. You can never get in enough short game practice. Sometimes it's nice to play in with Driver/GW on specific courses. I typically play 6400-6800. There's a lot of shorter courses around my area, but there's also quite a few longer courses as well. It's pretty much a 50/50 split so we have a nice mix and various options.

[gwlee7]

What I want to know is why a guy whose username is "Amazing Whacker" is expected to hit a green regularly from 200 yards perfect lie not withstanding.

I just checked and Steve Stricker leads the PGA tour with under 65% from 175 - 200 yards.  It's not an easy shot.

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by 0ldblu3

I hadn't heard that rule of thumb before, very interesting. I'll check into it to see if I am in the right place according to the rule...

It's generally better than trying to use driving distance as a guide, since the 5 iron is generally usable for everyone and is a lot more consistent distance wise. It assumes you can get off the tee with a driver, if you are a really good and consistent driver you can play longer courses than normal. If you're a hopeless driver, it means the overall average yardage of all the holes will be 2 middle iron shots (though realistically the par 5s and longer par 4s will be longer). So most of the holes will be reachable in 2 with a conservative club.

Generally though, most players on tour can hit their 5i in the 195-200 range, and a lot of courses are around 7200, so you'll be playing similar clubs to them, making the par 3s and par 5s a lot easier to hit in regulation, and giving you options on the par 4s. The pros usually like having short approaches so they can make birdies, and try not to leave mid irons in often. If you find yourself needing driver plus a hybrid or wood (assuming you hit them solid) on a par 4 more than a couple times a round, you may benefit from moving up. Of course there should be a couple long par 4s, but most of them should be no more than a mid iron in.

That said, drivable par 4s and reachable par 5s don't really apply, they'd have to make the hole like 230/440 yards for the average player to be able to consider reaching from the whites, and that's assuming decent hits. You're only supposed to consider that play if you're unusually long and the course isn't quite long enough to challenge you (generally). Some courses will try to set the tees on those holes to allow this for shorter players, but it's not supposed to be an option for everyone IMO. That's what makes the hole interesting; in match play you can make up a full stroke, or give yourself a shot at eagle in stroke play when the opponents are forced to lay up.

[Bullitt5339]

I'd say that's a really good rule of thumb.

My distance x 36 is 6120 yards.  My home course from the white tees is 6319.  From the Golds is only 5600 yards.  Blues are 7001 yards.

The white tees are a challenging round where I have to use most if not all of the clubs in my bag during the round, but not overwhelming.  From the Blues, it's daunting for me.  I play from the blues every once in a while, but hitting long irons into nearly all the greens doesn't make for a good chance of scoring for me.

[Chas]

OP:  I used to feel the same way.  My favorite short course (3 X 9 holes, about 6500 yds in any configuration) has a couple of 200+ yard par 3's and it was a long time before I got a ball to hold on the green, let alone just land on the thing.  I found this frustrating but after a while I decided that I needed to do something about it and started to work on my 3-hybrid, which I usually carried but rarely used.

Now I enjoy the challenge.  I may not hit and hold the green very often buy hey, that's golf.  This game isn't supposed to be easy, and getting par on one of those is very very satisfying.

Even the pros find such a shot difficult at times.  I like to stand near the par-3 11th at the Torrey Pines PGA event - you might be surprised how many pros miss that long downhill shot to a well-protected green.

[JaxBomber17]

The only real complaint I have about my club is that there isn't a long par 3 unless you play the tips, and it's one course where I just am not comfortable playing the tips yet. From the blues, the longest 3 is 185, and from the whites it's 172. I like the Gary Player school of Par 3 architecture; he says there should be one short (under 145), one long (over 200), and two middle (170-190) length holes.

[Grumpter]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I'd like to take a look at the scorecard if you'd be so kind to provide the course name. I like quirky courses. There's a course here with a 199y par 4 that is impossible to get to from the tee. I've played it twice this summer and both times I struggled to a double.

Here's one of the courses - http://www.centersquaregolfclub.com/images/CSGC-Scorecard.pdf

[Grumpter]

Originally Posted by Chas

...

Now I enjoy the challenge.  I may not hit and hold the green very often buy hey, that's golf.  This game isn't supposed to be easy, and getting par on one of those is very very satisfying.

....

I don't mind the challenge but find it annoying when 3 out of the 4 par 3's are at that length. I prefer a nice mix. The course I played yesterday (link to scorecard above) had 3 par 3's where I had to hit 3 iron but the longest approach shot on any of the par 4's left me with a 6 iron (420 yard hole). Other than that one 6 iron it was almost all wedges after the drive. The 8th hole is 405 yards but a 90 degree dogleg where I was able to drive over tall trees to cut off much of the corner and ended up with a 95 yard approach shot. Every other par 4 was under 400 yards.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

I don't mind the challenge but find it annoying when 3 out of the 4 par 3's are at that length. I prefer a nice mix. The course I played yesterday (link to scorecard above) had 3 par 3's where I had to hit 3 iron but the longest approach shot on any of the par 4's left me with a 6 iron (420 yard hole). Other than that one 6 iron it was almost all wedges after the drive. The 8th hole is 405 yards but a 90 degree dogleg where I was able to drive over tall trees to cut off much of the corner and ended up with a 95 yard approach shot. Every other par 4 was under 400 yards.

Totally agree.  If I was a course designer, I think I would make a point to try and get all four par 3's to be different clubs.  Depending on lay of the land, that shouldn't be hard.  Maybe one long one (210-220) is fine, one in the 180's, one in the 160's, and one short one (under 150).

You have no way to force people to play different clubs on longer holes.  You can encourage it, although people can lay up to preferred distances as they choose, but you can certainly test people on par 3's by mixing it up like that.

[Dave2512]

That is why I try to keep a few different local courses in my rotation. I wouldn't mind one with all long par 3's considering most around here are the opposite, 4 or 5 in the 140-170 range. Depending on the wind and pin placement it's a two club range for most. Though for me it usually doesn't matter. Long or short the par 3 is my nemesis. I run the score up with 3 putts on those more than anything else.