2012 Ryder Cup Discussion Thread

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

I didn't say Phil was complacent.........I said he had no business giving Rose credit for those shots DURING the match. As Mr. Desmond stated 'You turn and walk to the next hole'.

THAT attitude right there lost us that match and the Cup. Nicklaus/Palmer/Watson/Hogan/etc......would have all just turned and went about the business of winning; NOT making sure the other guy knew he hit a great shot.

Sunday Nassau...............okay. Ryder Cup.............NFW.

I'm sorry but that's a total croc of crap. Attitude doesn't win golf matches, hitting shots and making putts does. Do you really think if Mickelson hadn't applauded Rose's putt on 17 Rose wouldn't have made the birdie on 18? On Sunday the US did not hit the shots or make the putts. IMO it's never a bad thing to be gracious.

[Golf Man]

Originally Posted by Monte the Bear

There are a couple of other fundamental things that the Europeans had going for them that I don't think the US did.

1. The Europeans had fun. They all said it was a great time, but more than that, that it was a huge learning experience to be part of. I'm not sure the US team see's it that way. It's like the entire weight is just too much for the team. For me, the best US player was Duffner, who seemed to take it all pretty relaxed, hit his ball, walked to where it landed and hit it again. He seemed to take it all in his stride, whereas other seemed to let the Sunday get to them. Fundamentally, I think this means that the US team is scared of losing, whereas the European team isn't.

2. The back-room team. Love did all he could and his choices for assistants were all top-drawer, except for one thing. There were no team builders in amongst them. Jordan was an epic individual player, probably the best ever, but he was not a manager or a coach of a team that was massively successful. Whereas Olazabal had Pep Guardiola in his ranks (you Americans may need to look him up). There ins't a more sought-after coach / manager in World Football right now than PG, and he was with Olazabal all week. You can be sure he was talking to all of the back-room staff about keeping in the moment.

1. US had plenty of fun on Friday and Saturday - Bradley, Watson, Mickelson particularly stand out. A couple of US players let the  occassion get to them on Sunday and didn't play particularly well - and this conincided with teh Europeans playing their best golf of the week - if anybody didn't believe in the effect of a lot of blue/red on the leaderboard, they should now

2. Not sure on the Guardiola/Jordan thing tbh. What I will say is that looking at the vice captains - Europe had Clarke, McGinley, Bjorn and Jiminez - a lot of character and major Ryder Cup history - also all closely invovled in the last couple of Ryder Cups (with teh exception of McGinley - who has captained a lot of the players in the Seve trophy)and close to the players on the team. In contract Love had Couples, Hulbert, Sluman and Verplank - all far more removed from the current team and not exactly Ryder Cup legends (Couples is probably the exception. Also Olazabal could invoke Seve - Love brought George Bush

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson

Let's agree to disagree. All I can say is I actually played in those type of settings at a pretty high level (not afternoon league play at some muni) and see absolutely nothing wrong with complimenting your opponent for a good shot; it could actually work in your favor as I pointed it in my previous post. This is not a debate club, it's a forum to share opinions and I gave you one bourne out of actual experience.  But, I know you have a penchant for beating things to death, so I state right now this will be my last post on this.

Yes, my post was the first response to yours - that shows a "penchant for beating things to death."

And I agreed with you. I might have smiled, might have said "nice putt" but I think a thumbs up and hearty applause is a little much. So yes, I will disagree with you on the enthusiasm. Congrats on playing on a high level.

Bye.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Originally Posted by MSchott

Uh, Phil and Bradley picked up 3 points this week. He was one of the best players this week and qualified for the team based on points. In 2 years we'll see if someone is more qualified but for now I'm happy he's on the team.

No arguement on the point total and he may well qualify for the team in 2 years. In between i will be cheering for him (and betting on him) at Augusta next April and so on.

I don't think you can discount that he, Jimbo, Stricker and Woods have had a terrible run over the last 7 or so cups? i don't think he gets a captains pick or should be considered for one, he either plays his way on or off in 14.

I have a major problem that he didn't want to compete on Sat afternoon, from what i read, i believe on the golf channel app, he was asked by DL3 about playing again on Sat afternoon and said no, he was only mentally prepaired to play 18 that day...that bothers me. They won on the 12th green Sat morning and they should want the ball...WTF "no i am not mentally prepared" is not option. The correct response was let me grab a 1/2 a sandwich and a banana and will be ready to kick somebodies ass in 10 minutes...

As much as i love Phil and the fact he honestly believes that 2nd sucks lets play for the win this one is a major problem with me.

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by MSchott

I'm sorry but that's a total croc of crap. Attitude doesn't win golf matches, hitting shots and making putts does. Do you really think if Mickelson hadn't applauded Rose's putt on 17 Rose wouldn't have made the birdie on 18? On Sunday the US did not hit the shots or make the putts. IMO it's never a bad thing to be gracious.

wow................just wow. It's Attitude that makes hitting shots/putts possible. Go in thinking you can't and you never will.

Being gracious comes AFTER the last putt is struck. No hunger = no victory.

[Dave2512]

I don't think Team USA lost it as much as Team Europe won it. The momentum shift after losing the first 5 matches on Sun was huge. It made it easy for the Euro's to putt with confidence and put immense pressure on Team USA to make putts. Many of which lipped out. The same pressure had an affect on Team Europe for most of Fri-Sat. You could see the change in body language as the day unfolded.

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by ScouseJohnny

So was Jack wrong to give Tony Jacklin that 2 foot gimme on the 18th green at Royal Birkdale, back in 1969?

The match was already in hand, was it not? It didn't cost his team the cup and was a very classy thing to do. The match was already over AND it was a gimmie...........try again.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

I didn't say Phil was complacent.........I said he had no business giving Rose credit for those shots DURING the match. As Mr. Desmond stated 'You turn and walk to the next hole'.

THAT attitude right there lost us that match and the Cup. Nicklaus/Palmer/Watson/Hogan/etc......would have all just turned and went about the business of winning; NOT making sure the other guy knew he hit a great shot.

Sunday Nassau...............okay. Ryder Cup.............NFW.

I didn't like it, but losing them the Cup? That's nonsense. They lost the Cup because practically the whole team played to not lose instead of playing to win. Dufner is the only one I saw with any mettle on Sunday.

[Nosevi]

Obviously well done to the boys for pulling it off, but just a few quick thoughts. Firstly, was anyone else as disappointed on DLIII (who's a good guy as far as I can tell) for taking the temptation of "setting up" the course to try to stack it in the US favour? By all means ask for quick greens, or use the back of the existing tees, but chopping down every bit of rough on the course coz you think your players are less likely to hit the fairways takes away a fundamental part of the game. Jack Nicklaus, when interviewed on Sky said he was basically disappointed it had been done inferring it was against the spirit of the game. Got to say I agree with him, thank goodness it didn't work Secondly, why did you guys lead out with 'strength' if you knew we would? And we had to, everyone knew that. Would you have only won three matches if you had thrown the first 4 or 5 and had your form players playing our tail order? Baffled frankly. Lastly, and this is just the way I saw it, the European team won because they did one thing better. It wasn't drive, putt or chip. When we started to look like we could conceivably pull it off, the European team tried to win whereas the US team tried not to loose. Easy thing to say from my armchair, difficult not to do when the doubt crept in. Anway, best tournament I think I've ever seen. Well done Europe and see you boys in Scotland in 2 years. Oh and we won't be cutting down all the rough for that one :) Nos

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

I have a major problem that he didn't want to compete on Sat afternoon, from what i read, i believe on the golf channel app, he was asked by DL3 about playing again on Sat afternoon and said no, he was only mentally prepaired to play 18 that day...that bothers me. They won on the 12th green Sat morning and they should want the ball...WTF "no i am not mentally prepared" is not option. The correct response was let me grab a 1/2 a sandwich and a banana and will be ready to kick somebodies ass in 10 minutes...

As much as i love Phil and the fact he honestly believes that 2nd sucks lets play for the win this one is a major problem with me.

I disagree with this, but I get it.  You always want the star player to be the hero, and you always want them to demand the ball.  If you coached the Lakers, you would worry the first time Kobe said "you better pass it to Metta, I am not feeling it tonight."  But in certain situations, that is not always the prudent play.  The first that comes to mind is the star pitcher who is always going to want the ball (or at least say so to the media) in the playoffs on 3 days rest.  He wants to be the hero, but it's up to the manager to know that, historically, pitchers rarely perform well on 3 days rest, so its usually a bad idea.  We learned this weekend that the same thing is true in the Ryder Cup.  I don't remember the exact record, but they said that players who play in all 4 team sessions rarely win on Sunday.  DLIII was well aware of that, and he said that it was his intention for nobody to play 5 matches.  So why would you be mentally prepared to play Saturday afternoon if you already knew that you weren't going to?  In my opinion, it's that type of prudence and honestly that separates an experienced team player from an overly confident young one.  Additionally, when you have that kind of experience you HAVE to have that prudence because your coach is going to trust you more.  He will be a lot more apt to take you at your word than a rookie who is flooding with OVER-confidence and is apt to say what he thinks the coach/media/guys-on-golf-forums want to hear.

I also liked seeing Phil appreciate Justin Rose's good play over the last few holes, as others on here have mentioned they didn't like.  It showed class and appreciation, I thought.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Obviously well done to the boys for pulling it off, but just a few quick thoughts.

Firstly, was anyone else as disappointed on DLIII (who's a good guy as far as I can tell) for taking the temptation of "setting up" the course to try to stack it in the US favour? By all means ask for quick greens, or use the back of the existing tees, but chopping down every bit of rough on the course coz you think your players are less likely to hit the fairways takes away a fundamental part of the game. Jack Nicklaus, when interviewed on Sky said he was basically disappointed it had been done inferring it was against the spirit of the game. Got to say I agree with him, thank goodness it didn't work

Secondly, why did you guys lead out with 'strength' if you knew we would? And we had to, everyone knew that. Would you have only won three matches if you had thrown the first 4 or 5 and had your form players playing our tail order? Baffled frankly.

Lastly, and this is just the way I saw it, the European team won because they did one thing better. It wasn't drive, putt or chip. When we started to look like we could conceivably pull it off, the European team tried to win whereas the US team tried not to loose. Easy thing to say from my armchair, difficult not to do when the doubt crept in.

Anway, best tournament I think I've ever seen. Well done Europe and see you boys in Scotland in 2 years. Oh and we won't be cutting down all the rough for that one :)

Nos

bolded i am afraid has truth to it. i am not convinced the US was ready to play on sunday.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I don't think Team USA lost it as much as Team Europe won it. The momentum shift after losing the first 5 matches on Sun was huge. It made it easy for the Euro's to putt with confidence and put immense pressure on Team USA to make putts. Many of which lipped out. The same pressure had an affect on Team Europe for most of Fri-Sat. You could see the change in body language as the day unfolded.

Yeah ... Except, in retrospect, I think the momentum shifted during the last 2 matched on Saturday and expecially with the play and putting of Ian Poulter.  That dude was amazing.

[VOX]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

The match was already in hand, was it not? It didn't cost his team the cup and was a very classy thing to do. The match was already over AND it was a gimmie...........try again.

No but may have cost them the win vs. tie and several of Jack's teammates were angry with him. Captain Snead never forgave Jack for possibly costing him the win. That was also during a time when the Cup had not been competitive for decades. The US been Great Britain every two years so it was a gracious act.

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by phan52

I didn't like it, but losing them the Cup? That's nonsense. They lost the Cup because practically the whole team played to not lose instead of playing to win. Dufner is the only one I saw with any mettle on Sunday.

My point EXACTLY. Play with fire from start to finish.

As you said, nearly the whole team played 'uninspired'. Did they think no way we lose this or was there fear of losing it? Either way, their attitude lost it.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by VOX

No but may have cost them the win vs. tie and several of Jack's teammates were angry with him. Captain Snead never forgave Jack for possibly costing him the win. That was also during a time when the Cup had not been competitive for decades. The US been Great Britain every two years so it was a gracious act.

So, basically, the exact same thing Tiger did yesterday?  (Except it cost them the loss vs. the tie)

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by VOX

No but may have cost them the win vs. tie and several of Jack's teammates were angry with him. Captain Snead never forgave Jack for possibly costing him the win. That was also during a time when the Cup had not been competitive for decades. The US been Great Britain every two years so it was a gracious act.

Again..........it cost them nothing. U.S. had retained the cup and it was a 2' putt...........

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

As you said, nearly the whole team played 'uninspired'. Did they think no way we lose this or was there fear of losing it? Either way, their attitude lost it.

How does this come across in golf?  I get it when we are watching intense, physical sports, like football, basketball or tennis, because you can actually see when someone is loafing, or their "head isn't in the game."  But how does a golfer show a lack of inspiration?  Is it just based on the showing of emotion after made or missed putts?

EDIT:  That would meant that Jason Dufner is the least inspired as all of them because he shows no emotion?

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

My point EXACTLY. Play with fire from start to finish.

As you said, nearly the whole team played 'uninspired'. Did they think no way we lose this or was there fear of losing it? Either way, their attitude lost it.

Well, I thought you were speaking specifically about Phil. What he did on 16-17 didn't lose him the match. In fact, I give him a pass because he just got beat. The other guys played like they were scared.