Anchored Putters Rules Change (Effective January 1, 2016)

[newtogolf]

I agree, but if the feedback is accurate as to why the R&A; and USGA banned the anchored stroke it had to do with R&A; concerns about the anchored putting stroke gaining popularity on the European Tour as it has on the PGA Tour.  If this is accurate, the decision wasn't made based on what's best for golf as a whole since non-pro's are the majority of those who play golf.

What the PGA must now do is consider the position of the pro's, the non-pro's, balance that against the recommendation from the USGA and decide what is long term best for the sport in the United States.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Good point.  The other thing that is vastly different between sports is that there really isn't one solitary governing body for sports like football.  The NFL makes changes to their rules and does not have to consider the interests of anybody else.  (I'm not counting the fans as anybody else, because obviously, the fans are part of their interests)  College does the same, as does high school.

Many people talk about one of the beauties of golf being that it's a game with one set of rules played by all ages and abilities everywhere.  No football analogies, basketball analogies, or the like will ever compare fairly because the effects of the rules aren't very far-reaching.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by NM Golf

Had the powers in basketball taken the same stance as the USGA I would venture to think basketball would not be nearly the exciting game we see today.

Wait, huh? Basketball is exciting?

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I agree, but if the feedback is accurate as to why the R&A; and USGA banned the anchored stroke it had to do with R&A; concerns about the anchored putting stroke gaining popularity on the European Tour as it has on the PGA Tour. If this is accurate, the decision wasn't made based on what's best for golf as a whole since non-pro's are the majority of those who play golf.

I disagree. If it wasn't going to gain popularity, why spend the time and effort to think about it, craft a rule, etc.? Just let it die on its own. Their hand was forced to do what they thought was "best" for the game because of the increasing preference to putt in a way they felt was "not a stroke."

---

BTW, I don't think the USGA/R&A; is going to care about "we don't want to do that" as a valid or legitimate piece of feedback. But if that's true, then I also don't think there's really any feedback out there they would accept, because that's the context within which they framed the rules change.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by iacas

Wait, huh? Basketball is exciting?

Sure ... just skip the first 90% of the game and watch the last 90 seconds, preferably on your DVR so you can fast forward through the myriad of time outs.  (And I say this as a basketball fan :))

[newtogolf]

My understanding is the push to ban the anchored stroke was driven by the R&A; and the USGA felt it was best for both organizations to come up with a solution together.  If that's the case, the USGA may have felt an obligation to keep the rules consistent.  Does the USGA solicit opinions from the PGA Tour and PGA prior to enacting new rules or do they act independently and ask for input later?

The USGA may have under estimated the backlash from banning the anchored putting stroke, thinking it would just be accepted as the grooves / wedge rule change was.  The USGA may not care what the pro's think or want to do, but if the PGA Tour decides to ignore that rule and thus create a different set of rules for themselves and the PGA sided with Finchem, the USGA would lose a significant amount of their power and clout here in the United States.

Originally Posted by iacas

I disagree. If it wasn't going to gain popularity, why spend the time and effort to think about it, craft a rule, etc.? Just let it die on its own. Their hand was forced to do what they thought was "best" for the game because of the increasing preference to putt in a way they felt was "not a stroke."

BTW, I don't think the USGA/R&A; is going to care about "we don't want to do that" as a valid or legitimate piece of feedback. But if that's true, then I also don't think there's really any feedback out there they would accept, because that's the context within which they framed the rules change.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Perhaps we've tortured this analogy enough?

Serious question, if the people who teach golf for a living come out against the rule. And the people who play golf for a living come out against the rule. And the people who make/sell golf clubs for a living come out against the rule. Where does that leave the people who make the rules in their spare time?

In control.

If the PGATour decides not to recognize the rules and the USGA stands firm then the PGATour better double its security budget, because like it or not, all the obnoxious "Mashed Potato" cries are going to turn into widespread cries of "Cheater!!"

And let's not forget that those ruling bodies are in control of the 2 most prestigious majors and it is likely the Masters folks will go along, making it the three most prestigious majors.  And if those three majors do not allow anchored putting I think the PGA of America will also follow along, as it is in the most danger of losing its major status of the four.  Throw in the Eurotour acquiescing, since the R&A; was the impetus for the change, and the PGATour is completely isolated.

This is all empty saber-rattling by the PGATour, IMO.

[meenman]

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/finchem-holds-conference-call-with-pac/

I think is far from the foregone conclusion everyone believed had happened almost 3 months ago.

[teamroper60]

Originally Posted by iacas

BTW, I don't think the USGA/R&A; is going to care about "we don't want to do that" as a valid or legitimate piece of feedback. But if that's true, then I also don't think there's really any feedback out there they would accept, because that's the context within which they framed the rules change.

If the USGA and the R&A; don't really care about the feedback, then they are wasting everyone's time to even have a comment period.

[newtogolf]

This exactly, don't ask for opinions if you don't want to hear from those that disagree with your ruling.  You can't go on too long pretending to be a democracy if you really consider yourself a dictatorship.

Originally Posted by teamroper60

If the USGA and the R&A; don't really care about the feedback, then they are wasting everyone's time to even have a comment period.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

This exactly, don't ask for opinions if you don't want to hear from those that disagree with your ruling.  You can't go on too long pretending to be a democracy if you really consider yourself a dictatorship.

I think the comment period is for technical tweaks or wording the rule so it is clearer, NOT the basic thrust.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I think the comment period is for technical tweaks or wording the rule so it is clearer, NOT the basic thrust.

...and maybe a chance to ask the guys in Legal what kinds of lawsuits they might expect, if any. Sadly, in the U.S. at least, it's a relevant topic with every decision.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I think the comment period is for technical tweaks or wording the rule so it is clearer, NOT the basic thrust.

Exactly. Plus, newtogolf, who said anything about the USGA/R&A; ignoring the feedback?

Originally Posted by dave67az

...and maybe a chance to ask the guys in Legal what kinds of lawsuits they might expect, if any. Sadly, in the U.S. at least, it's a relevant topic with every decision.

The language was supposedly vetted quite a bit already. They mentioned working on the language quite a bit when the announced the proposed changes.

[newtogolf]

Erik, you stated you didn't think the USGA/R&A; was going to care about "we don't want to do that", which is essentially ignoring the feedback.  Pro golfers using the anchored putting stroke can only argue that it's a putting stroke they've used for years and they don't want to change because the USGA now deems it's not a proper stroke.

I'm in favor of the anchored putting stroke ban but I'm playing devils advocate given there are huge implications if the PGA Tour and PGA decide to ignore the ruling or believe that it's within their rights to do so.  This could have long term effects on technology roll backs in the future as well.

Originally Posted by iacas

BTW, I don't think the USGA/R&A; is going to care about "we don't want to do that" as a valid or legitimate piece of feedback. But if that's true, then I also don't think there's really any feedback out there they would accept, because that's the context within which they framed the rules change.

Originally Posted by iacas

Exactly. Plus, newtogolf, who said anything about the USGA/R&A; ignoring the feedback

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Erik, you stated you didn't think the USGA/R&A; was going to care about "we don't want to do that", which is essentially ignoring the feedback.  Pro golfers using the anchored putting stroke can only argue that it's a putting stroke they've used for years and they don't want to change because the USGA now deems it's not a proper stroke.

I'm in favor of the anchored putting stroke ban but I'm playing devils advocate given there are huge implications if the PGA Tour and PGA decide to ignore the ruling or believe that it's within their rights to do so.  This could have long term effects on technology roll backs in the future as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

BTW, I don't think the USGA/R&A; is going to care about "we don't want to do that" as a valid or legitimate piece of feedback. But if that's true, then I also don't think there's really any feedback out there they would accept, because that's the context within which they framed the rules change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Exactly. Plus, newtogolf, who said anything about the USGA/R&A; ignoring the feedback

That isn't feedback, it's whining.  Feedback offers new thoughts or suggestions.  The ruling bodies knew going it that the decision wouldn't be universally loved.

[newtogolf]

We can call it whining but what other argument can they make?  When a ruling body tells you an anchored putting stroke (which has been legal for years) suddenly isn't a proper stroke what response could they come up with that hasn't already been argued before the USGA made the ruling.

The decision not being universally loved means some golfers whine and complain but when the PGA Tour and possibly the PGA consider ignoring the ruling then it's a likely a bigger issue than they initially thought it would be.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

That isn't feedback, it's whining.  Feedback offers new thoughts or suggestions.  The ruling bodies knew going it that the decision wouldn't be universally loved.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

We can call it whining but what other argument can they make?  When a ruling body tells you an anchored putting stroke (which has been legal for years) suddenly isn't a proper stroke what response could they come up with that hasn't already been argued before the USGA made the ruling.

The decision not being universally loved means some golfers whine and complain but when the PGA Tour and possibly the PGA consider ignoring the ruling then it's a likely a bigger issue than they initially thought it would be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

That isn't feedback, it's whining.  Feedback offers new thoughts or suggestions.  The ruling bodies knew going it that the decision wouldn't be universally loved.

I still call it whining.  "Waaaaa... I don't WANT to learn to putt right.... Waaaaaa".  Put forth reasonable arguments or shut up.  They sound like the playground brat who threatens to take his ball and go home if he doesn't get his way.

[Ernest Jones]

Keegan kinda looks like a whiner.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

We can call it whining but what other argument can they make?  When a ruling body tells you an anchored putting stroke (which has been legal for years) suddenly isn't a proper stroke what response could they come up with that hasn't already been argued before the USGA made the ruling.

The decision not being universally loved means some golfers whine and complain but when the PGA Tour and possibly the PGA consider ignoring the ruling then it's a likely a bigger issue than they initially thought it would be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

That isn't feedback, it's whining.  Feedback offers new thoughts or suggestions.  The ruling bodies knew going it that the decision wouldn't be universally loved.

I still call it whining.  "Waaaaa... I don't WANT to learn to putt right.... Waaaaaa".  Put forth reasonable arguments or shut up.  They sound like the playground brat who threatens to take his ball and go home if he doesn't get his way.

They don't like the embedded ball rule either. Could they make anchoring a local decision like embedded ball? Is this where this is heading?

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

We can call it whining but what other argument can they make?  When a ruling body tells you an anchored putting stroke (which has been legal for years) suddenly isn't a proper stroke what response could they come up with that hasn't already been argued before the USGA made the ruling.

The decision not being universally loved means some golfers whine and complain but when the PGA Tour and possibly the PGA consider ignoring the ruling then it's a likely a bigger issue than they initially thought it would be.

Seriously?  We've been discussing it for how long and we've had a lot of good arguments on both sides.  Look, when the USGA asks for constructive criticism, they want to hear the same things we've been talking about in this forum.

If you had a golf pro who was giving you advice, tell me...do you think "no, you're doing it wrong" is beneficial?  I don't want to speak for Erik, but I'm pretty sure that's the point he's trying to make.  If all you have to say is "we don't want it" then that provides no additional info.  If, however, you actually have something CONSTRUCTIVE like discussing ways to keep anchored putting while still ensuring that the traditional style doesn't become extinct, then maybe that might help a little.

If you're just saying "I don't want it" you're whining.