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Posted
Originally Posted by dereckbc

If golf was easy and everyone could play scratch, they would call it bowling.

When I see you playing in the PBA I'll take this quote as the truth.  Until then...

Jeff

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Posted

I think ppl have alluded to this, but not spoken directly to it:

It gets proportionately more difficult and requires more skill to get consistently lower scores.

I was hitting in the 110’s, took 5 lessons and was quickly in the 90’s.

So I’m straighter and consistent.

But now distance?

And putting?  You watch some TV golf and watch those pro’s drain a 25 footer.

More than once a round.  Putting definitely requires some time and coaching.

So knowledge about the swing and game and your body first, then you get more refined.

And really, you know some ppl can’t be refined, lol.

I like the line about golf is 90% mental and the other 10% is in your head.

Some ppl get low, and then some of those issues definitely come in to play.

Fun times, but every once in a while I walk off the course and say “Waht in the hell am I doing here?"


Posted

I think there is something in the mindset of people who pick up golf and I can't figure it out.   20 year old men don't pick up a baseball bat for the first time and think they'll be playing in the MLB.  Nor do they pick up a basketball for the first time and think there is a legitimate chance they'll be in the NBA.  And there are a lot more professional players in the NBA and MLB than 150.

I know this post is asking about scratch and not the tour, but I've seen so many like it that allude to becoming that good.  I wonder what causes this thought process.. lol.

Jeff

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Posted
Originally Posted by SloverUT

I think there is something in the mindset of people who pick up golf and I can't figure it out.   20 year old men don't pick up a baseball bat for the first time and think they'll be playing in the MLB.  Nor do they pick up a basketball for the first time and think there is a legitimate chance they'll be in the NBA.  And there are a lot more professional players in the NBA and MLB than 150.

I know this post is asking about scratch and not the tour, but I've seen so many like it that allude to becoming that good.  I wonder what causes this thought process.. lol.

I was thinking the same thing, but didn`t post it...even if you take those other sports up as a kid, it is unlikely you will make it even to the minor leagues or the D league.  This thread is sorta akin to asking everyone who ever played little league why they didn`t make it to the minor leagues multiplied by the fact that a lot of people take up golf as an adult.

:mizuno: MP-52 5-PW, :cobra: King Snake 4 i 
:tmade: R11 Driver, 3 W & 5 W, :vokey: 52, 56 & 60 wedges
:seemore: putter


Posted

A lot of has to do with "how hard can it be to hit a ball with a stick?".   Well, it ends up being a lot harder than you realize.


Posted
Originally Posted by gwlee7

A lot of has to do with "how hard can it be to hit a ball with a stick?".   Well, it ends up being a lot harder than you realize.

Ironically - a lot of us struggle because we are trying to hit the ball with the stick - which we actually do pretty well - but isn't the goal.


Posted
Originally Posted by MEfree

I was thinking the same thing, but didn`t post it...even if you take those other sports up as a kid, it is unlikely you will make it even to the minor leagues or the D league.  This thread is sorta akin to asking everyone who ever played little league why they didn`t make it to the minor leagues multiplied by the fact that a lot of people take up golf as an adult.

The difference is that being a scratch golfer means you're still well away from being even a "minor league" golfer while getting into minor league baseball is not nearly as "elite".  The main reason is that there are many more easily accessible and organized leagues and ways to reach minor leagues of other sports where in golf...its still pretty indvidual.  There is no little league golf.

My philosophy on golf "We're not doing rocket science, here."


Posted
The difference is that being a scratch golfer means you're still well away from being even a "minor league" golfer while getting into minor league baseball is not nearly as "elite".  The main reason is that there are many more easily accessible and organized leagues and ways to reach minor leagues of other sports where in golf...its still pretty indvidual.  There is no little league golf.

I beg to differ. There's a TON of little league (junior) golf. Not so much 20 years ago, but these days, if a kid wants to play, or rather, if mom or dad wants them to play, there are lots of opportunities out there....

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

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Posted
Originally Posted by David in FL

I beg to differ. There's a TON of little league (junior) golf. Not so much 20 years ago, but these days, if a kid wants to play, or rather, if mom or dad wants them to play, there are lots of opportunities out there....

well I was speaking in relativity to basketball, baseball, football exposure.  I know there is junior golf and what not but its a much smaller community that those of other little leagues.

My philosophy on golf "We're not doing rocket science, here."


Posted
Originally Posted by Paradox

The difference is that being a scratch golfer means you're still well away from being even a "minor league" golfer while getting into minor league baseball is not nearly as "elite".  The main reason is that there are many more easily accessible and organized leagues and ways to reach minor leagues of other sports where in golf...its still pretty indvidual.  There is no little league golf.

I think you missed my point (and are likely wrong in any case).  My point was that most sports participants do not make it to the equivalent of a scratch golfer whether the sport is baseball, basketball, football, tennis, etc.  This is especially true for average athletes that take up these sports as adults.

:mizuno: MP-52 5-PW, :cobra: King Snake 4 i 
:tmade: R11 Driver, 3 W & 5 W, :vokey: 52, 56 & 60 wedges
:seemore: putter


Posted

Easy, you don't keep getting better and at some point you might even get worse. I stopped getting better and even got worse at around a 5 handicap even though I was practicing as much as ever.

See http://www.thedanplan.com

I love referencing this site, guy practices 1000's of hours, 6 hours a day 6 days a week for years and it looks like his last 18 hole score was an 89.


Posted
Originally Posted by SloverUT

I think there is something in the mindset of people who pick up golf and I can't figure it out.   20 year old men don't pick up a baseball bat for the first time and think they'll be playing in the MLB.  Nor do they pick up a basketball for the first time and think there is a legitimate chance they'll be in the NBA.  And there are a lot more professional players in the NBA and MLB than 150.

I know this post is asking about scratch and not the tour, but I've seen so many like it that allude to becoming that good.  I wonder what causes this thought process.. lol.

Originally Posted by MEfree

I was thinking the same thing, but didn`t post it...even if you take those other sports up as a kid, it is unlikely you will make it even to the minor leagues or the D league.  This thread is sorta akin to asking everyone who ever played little league why they didn`t make it to the minor leagues multiplied by the fact that a lot of people take up golf as an adult.

Yeah but this thread isn't really about whether or not you will ever get scratch, it is about why you are not, which doesn't mean you think that you will get there. A few people have claimed to think they will get there (myself included) but not everyone.

Also a pro player and a scratch player are complete different, you can't compare them. Plenty of people who pick up sports as an adult get very very good at them. Maybe not quite what it takes to be a scratch golfer, but very good none the less.

:whistle:

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Posted
Originally Posted by jshots

Yeah but this thread isn't really about whether or not you will ever get scratch, it is about why you are not, which doesn't mean you think that you will get there. A few people have claimed to think they will get there (myself included) but not everyone.

True, but the OP and some other posters seemed to point to lack of time and $ as the main reasons why more people are not scratch golfers.  My point was that while a lot of quality practice going forward could help a lot of people improve their golf, many who did not take up the game as a kid and/or were not very athletic as kids can practice 50+ hours per week the rest of their lives and will still never become a scratch golfer.

Those who are ~sub 5 capers might be able to point to one aspect of their game or a lack of time to practice as a reason they are not scratch.  For the rest of us, it likely comes down to a lack of overall golfing talent- something that is not easily remedied IMO.

:mizuno: MP-52 5-PW, :cobra: King Snake 4 i 
:tmade: R11 Driver, 3 W & 5 W, :vokey: 52, 56 & 60 wedges
:seemore: putter


Posted
Originally Posted by MEfree

True, but the OP and some other posters seemed to point to lack of time and $ as the main reasons why more people are not scratch golfers.  My point was that while a lot of quality practice going forward could help a lot of people improve their golf, many who did not take up the game as a kid and/or were not very athletic as kids can practice 50+ hours per week the rest of their lives and will still never become a scratch golfer.

Those who are ~sub 5 capers might be able to point to one aspect of their game or a lack of time to practice as a reason they are not scratch.  For the rest of us, it likely comes down to a lack of overall golfing talent- something that is not easily remedied IMO.


Most may not but you can overcome not having natural talent.  Pete Rose admitted he didn't have a lot of true baseball talent but became so good because he worked so hard,

Jeff

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Posted
Originally Posted by Yukari

Come back in a year and you would have answered your own question.

Haha.  Exactly.  I became a high-80s to mid-90s player basically instantly, then took a year, maybe 1.5 to get do do more straight 80s, and have been stuck hitting low 80s on a solid day and feeling like I played bad if I card an 87-89 (unless the course is new for me and very hard) for what feels like forever...  Golf is hard, and without unlimited time and money, it's very very hard.

Matt

Mid-Weight Heavy Putter
Cleveland Tour Action 60˚
Cleveland CG15 54˚
Nike Vapor Pro Combo, 4i-GW
Titleist 585h 19˚
Tour Edge Exotics XCG 15˚ 3 Wood
Taylormade R7 Quad 9.5˚

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Posted

Adding to it being easier to go from a 39-9 than 9-0, the 39-9 is the building of a consistent swing that you can rely on with a good enough short game, the 9-0 is the mental toughness knowing that you can do that every time and build a strong short game.  Also, some of the talent required for golf is certainly hand-eye coordination.  I have friends that play others sports like baseball and hockey, and although some of the mechanics of the swing may be similar, the ability to hit a small white ball is hard.  But, I've seen them step up to the ball for the first time and hit it.  Might not have been straight or very far, but just the ability to have your mind, arms, and hands all in synch is necessary to build a great swing.

For me, I only recently got this 0.2 handicap.  My lowest handicap I've been at thus far in my golfing career.  The key for me this season has been making birdies and reducing double bogeys.  I averaged 4-5 birdies a round and an eagle every 3 rounds.  The beginning of the season, I made 1-3 double bogeys a round and it killed me, because its hard to make up that many strokes.  But, a bogey is almost nothing if I KNOW I can make birdies to make it up.  The reason for making those birdies all came from putting those approach shots closer to the pin giving better opportunities.  It was certainly not an easy road to reach this point, and I still have work to do to get to 0.0 and better.

  • Upvote 1

Philip Kohnken, PGA
Director of Instruction, Lake Padden GC, Bellingham, WA

Srixon/Cleveland Club Fitter; PGA Modern Coach; Certified in Dr Kwon’s Golf Biomechanics Levels 1 & 2; Certified in SAM Putting; Certified in TPI
 
Team :srixon:!

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Posted

Scratch?!!! You're talking scratch?!! (Jim Mora Sr. voice........)

I'm 44, married with full time job and having done too much manual labor for the first 20 years of my life.

Combined with poor practice habits (which I'm working on), being stubborn/cheap not to just suck it up to buy lessons (which I will do this winter) as well as taking 5 years off prior to this spring it's a wonder I'm a single digit handicap let alone think I can shoot par or below regularly.


Posted

Right now,  I think the only reason I'm not scratch is because I don't get to play enough.  This past year, I only got to play a few streaks, but despite the lack of practice, the evolution of my mental game, approach to the course, and understanding of my tendencies got me scoring most of my rounds better than +3, going under par a handful of times.  The game has really seemed easier since I've gotten comfortable with the process of golf (still kind of new, 4th season) and understanding what leads to good scores.

When I first picked up the game, I practiced 2 hours a day, 5 days a week. While it helped me build a dependable swing, I found I hit a wall on scoring quite quickly.  To shoot lower numbers, I had to be more efficient in getting the ball in the hole.  A big part of it was learning how to read the movement on the greens, not only for putting, but on approach and recovery.  Additionally, it was learning the best angles to set up from.  I'm very technical in my thought process, especially when it comes to sports.  While the technique in my movements is quite important, getting away from that focus and re-applying that technicality towards my approach to the course has revamped my game for the better.  If I can get out there more next season and sharpen my physical control a bit, I think I can do it.  I'll also be done with grad school by then and I know exactly where I'm going to spend some of that time.  Experience pays off, and I'm ready to reap the benefits of that soon!

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    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
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