Practice Swing Vs. Real Swing - How Can One Make These THE SAME

[Grizvok]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

That isn't the conclusion that you should draw from what I sad. By saying, depends on the golfer, I mean that a golfer might not even need to worry about changing what they are already focusing on. They probably need to work on something else entirely. 

By using video I mean getting instruction on what single priority piece you need to work on and use video to support your practice. That way you can make sure you are developing the correct feels and motions necessary to change the swing for the better.

 

I see.

[downbylaw11]

i typically only look at the ball as a means to keep my head still. i look at it, but don't think about it. I mostly only think about my takeaway and my first move on the downswing.  usually the rest falls into place if both of those feel right.  usually i can tell in the first 2 inches of my takeaway if my shot is going to be awful. usually because for some reason either i clipped a piece of uneven turf or i started way outside.  I've lately been trying to catch myself when i do this and stop my swing. I used to just power through it and hit a joke of a shot, knowing it would be bad, but theres certainly no reason in doing that if you can stop. 

[CarlSpackler]

Stop trying to steer the ball or scoop it into the air. 

[gregsandiego]

On 8/19/2017 at 11:19 PM, downbylaw11 said:

this has become a serious problem of mine.  When I was at the range today I wanted to get some video so I could see certain things.  I took a few practice swings with a 3 wood and honestly I was surprised at how good it was, mostly because I have been having some issues with my longer clubs, but the video everything was there. I did this after I ran out of balls, so I went and got another bucket so I could try to replicate it with a ball, and I could not believe how bad it was.  I mean, I still sometimes hit decent shots, but it's a miracle that I can, because I suddenly had every single swing fault known to man in one swing.  I was almost embarrassed to be there, because I definitely don't wanna be the guy at the range who looks like he's having a seizure while he's swinging a club.  does anyone have any new and improved tips getting over this mental hurdle?  I think if I'm locked in, I swing my shorter clubs quite well, but the longer the club, the more out of sorts things get.  Maybe because I feel like I need to kill the ball to make it go far?  If it's a problem with the ball being there, maybe I should try closing my eyes? 

I'm glad you revived this old thread because it's my favorite topic and demon. I can pick up a club inside the house or backyard and effortlessly do a nice smooth full backswing.But if I know I'm going to hit a ball - for real - it's like a force field screws up my take away.It gets all slow and choppy.  The course is worse than the range for me.

I'm always trying new things. The latest is to pause at the top, which helps a little.

Closing your eyes seems like a terrible idea. Without the visual feedback I'm sure I'd veer off the plane. 

[downbylaw11]

well, i just meant closing them at the range as you hit a ball, so you don't watch the result, or focus on hitting the ball, but simply swinging and allowing the ball to get in the way.  like most bad habits, sometimes you just need to rewire your brain.   on a semi related topic for tricking your brain into doing things, i had a pretty nasty work accident several years ago where i broke my heel and wasnt able to put any sort of weight on my leg after surgery for about 3 months, I had to relearn simple things like balance, and it was amazing how my brain was so used to putting all my weight on one leg, that it just didnt understand how to balance on the opposite leg.  one thing I had to do was practice balancing on the bad leg while closing my eyes. it was incredibly tough and i could typically only do it for a few seconds before almost falling over

another interesting example is phantom limb syndrome.  sometimes when people have amputations, they develop phantom pains where the limb was.  although i saw this on 'house md', im pretty sure they do this in real life too, but if you set up a mirror next to the limb, which gives the illusion of a right and left fully functional limb, it can trick the brain into releasing that phantom pain.  interesting stuff

 

anyways, i felt weird reviving a super old thread, but i kept googling this problem and this was one of the top results, so i figured since i was new to the forum, instead of creating a new thread on an existing topic and getting shit for it like has been known to happen on message boards, i'd just revive this one. cool story right?

[DaveP043]

22 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

First, a question.  I can't tell whether you continued to take video when you got more range balls, or whether you just had a bunch of bad shots.  Did you get video of real shots, and did your swing really look much different?  

 

13 hours ago, downbylaw11 said:

 I wish people could just take others word for it when they are confident that they know what theyre talking about.  i'm a pretty decent golfer in spite of the current issue im having. 

I'm going to take you at your word, that you're a decent golfer, and that you understand how to diagnose your swing faults through video.  So I go back t the question, did you go back and get video of real swings at a ball?  did you compare those to your videos of practice swings?  What were the differences?  Was there a common underlying problem with the real swings?  You may find out that:

If this is the case, you may want to post some of those "real" swing videos in the Member Swing forum and get some competent advice.

13 hours ago, downbylaw11 said:

also, no need for for subtle digs about practice swings not being good. I wish people could just take others word for it when they are confident that they know what theyre talking about.  i'm a pretty decent golfer in spite of the current issue im having. 

My "dig" wasn't intended to be subtle, I was saying quite openly that your practice swings probably aren't as technically sound as you think they are.  The reason that I'm skeptical about your evaluation is that very very few people have the knowledge and experience to analyze a golf swing.  The odds are that any individual, including you, falls into the other group, your analysis is probably flawed, no matter how long you've been playing or what your handicap is.  Please remember, we're not trying to knock you down, we're trying to give you good advice, even if its not the advice you'd prefer to hear.

And last, you can change your avatar by clicking on your name in the top right, then selecting My Profile.  When that comes up, click the small link at the bottom left of your current avatar, and you can upload a photo of your choice.

[yanni]

12 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

I have suffered from this for longer than I'd like to admit. While my practice swing was/is far from good, it's much better than when hitting at a ball. But I'm starting to see a very faint light at the end of a very long tunnel.

This is what helped me....

• I picked what I thought was the biggest difference between my practice swing and the real one. In my case, my weight shifted pretty well on my practice swing but stayed back while swinging at a ball. There were/are a lot of other issues, but that's what I decided was the biggest problem and the one I had the hardest time fixing.
• I really slowed down and shortened the swing to try and develop the feel for the move while hitting a ball.
• Even though I was hitting a ball, I had to really focus on the move. This was the hardest part and it will likely be the hardest part for others struggling with this. Not caring about contact is very difficult but absolutely necessary, IMO. I'm just not wired that way or something. You've got to have faith that good contact will be the easy part once you get that priority piece to feel a bit more natural. Just don't lose your focus and try to improve contact too soon.
• Once I was able to accomplish the priority piece to where it felt a bit closer to natural with the slow, partial swing, I'd begin to lengthen my backswing. I would often fail at this point and have to go back to half swings. It was frustrating because during many of the practices, it felt like I'd never get it. 

I started this last fall and worked on it throughout the winter and spring. I should have taken video throughout that time but didn't. At some point in the early spring, something clicked and I felt like my full swings at a ball were much closer to my practice swings. I took video and there was some improvement. I lose it on the course all the time and revert to leaving my weight back, but at the same time, there are many swings on the course where I've felt that weight shifted properly. It's still very much a work in progress.

I'm not saying this is a recipe for success and god knows, I'm far from successful. But for many of us it just takes a lot more effort than we believe it should. There is, of course, no substitute for a good instructor if you can pull that off financially.

This is 100% me. As I wrote above my pro recorded a video with and without the ball. Pretty night and day difference. 

As soon I do the swing with the ball the weight shift does not happen any more. I don't really understand what the reason is. Somehow my body thinks its wrong to move into over over the ball.

He recommended that I should swing with 20-30% (!) of my power and not do a full swing. This actually improved my striking 100%. The swing is still not 100% as without the ball but way closer. The funny thing about this is I hit the ball way further and very consistant with the 30% of power as compared to something I would think about as 80%. Which I normally do. With the 80% the balls was sometimes a bit longer but most of the time all over the place. Many times way shorter.

I really don't quite understand this. I am swinging with almost no power (clubhead speed probably is at least 15mph slower) but it seems the good contact equals this out totally. 

When doing a full sing with 80% power I think may my shifts away from the ball much more which makes it more difficult to move in the ball again.

Edited August 22, 2017 by yanni

[Rykymus]

Hit a large bucket this morning at the range. (Off the grass) I've only been about 50% constant getting good strikes, and I've always been more of a picker, never taking more than a trim off the grass. When I miss, it's usually thin, topping the ball, or hitting slightly below its equator.

I tried the trick of focusing on a spot 1 inch ahead of the ball, instead of on the ball itself, and I immediately went to hitting solid, well-controlled, average distance shots (with about 80% power) at least 90% of the time, and with every club in my bag! I'm here to tell you, that trick really works!

[downbylaw11]

8 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

 

I'm going to take you at your word, that you're a decent golfer, and that you understand how to diagnose your swing faults through video.  So I go back t the question, did you go back and get video of real swings at a ball?  did you compare those to your videos of practice swings?  What were the differences?  Was there a common underlying problem with the real swings?  You may find out that:

If this is the case, you may want to post some of those "real" swing videos in the Member Swing forum and get some competent advice.

My "dig" wasn't intended to be subtle, I was saying quite openly that your practice swings probably aren't as technically sound as you think they are.  The reason that I'm skeptical about your evaluation is that very very few people have the knowledge and experience to analyze a golf swing.  The odds are that any individual, including you, falls into the other group, your analysis is probably flawed, no matter how long you've been playing or what your handicap is.  Please remember, we're not trying to knock you down, we're trying to give you good advice, even if its not the advice you'd prefer to hear.

And last, you can change your avatar by clicking on your name in the top right, then selecting My Profile.  When that comes up, click the small link at the bottom left of your current avatar, and you can upload a photo of your choice.

 

 

 

I took a few more videos, but I had seen enough.  the underlying problem mostly was coming over the top because I was rushing my downswing trying to kill the ball. it's pretty common for me with my driver and longer irons, so I constantly have to work at it, and probably need to continue working at it after i've done fixing it.  Once I became aware of the main trigger of the problem, I was able to at least really focus on my downswing and the videos I took after that, while still generally not very good, were improved.  I spent most of the time after that hitting 7 irons trying to bring the club down with my lower body and hips and not my chest and shoulders.  I hit some 3 woods at the very end that felt more under control and i've spent every night since then at home just slowly grooving that feel.  

 

I might post a video eventually, but honestly, I'd rather not get torn to shreds for the hell of it by the people here.  even if maybe they thought it was good they would point out some fault because it seems like thats what people do.  heck, im in a thread talking about my mental approach to taking a real shot and the best advice some of you can give is, 'lets see a video of your swing so i can draw some lines on it and tell you your shoulder tilt is 3 degrees offline' 

[Rykymus]

I'm with ya on this one, downbylaw11. I'm very new to this game, and I'm amazed at how much of it is mental. My approach has been to gather all the information I can, experiment, and just find what works for me and my golf goals. There will always be people who tell you you're doing something wrong. Sometimes they're right, and sometimes they're not. There really is no universal right and wrong, there is only what works for you. Take the advice that feels right to you, and disregard the rest. It's advice that was given to me long ago (on an entirely different subject) and is universally applicable.

I would never post a video of my swing unless I was looking for help to try and find a fault that I was not able to figure out. As you pointed out, you're looking to solve a mental issue. Stick to that.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, downbylaw11 said:

I might post a video eventually, but honestly, I'd rather not get torn to shreds for the hell of it by the people here.  even if maybe they thought it was good they would point out some fault because it seems like thats what people do.  heck, im in a thread talking about my mental approach to taking a real shot and the best advice some of you can give is, 'lets see a video of your swing so i can draw some lines on it and tell you your shoulder tilt is 3 degrees offline' 

I disagree - as strongly as one can - about how you seem to feel people behave here in Member Swing topics. I don't have anything more to say about that, but I cannot overstate how wrong I feel you are about that.

Also… your swing issues are not "mental" problems. Your swing issues are mechanical problems. You're not making a bad swing because you choke. You're not making a bad swing because you made a bad club selection and shot selection. You're making a bad swing because your mechanics need work.

9 minutes ago, Rykymus said:

There really is no universal right and wrong, there is only what works for you. Take the advice that feels right to you, and disregard the rest. It's advice that was given to me long ago (on an entirely different subject) and is universally applicable.

That's bogus advice in the golf swing. "What works right now" or "what feels right" may lead you down the wrong road, from which recovery may not be possible.

Visit one of the few good instructors out there and put your faith in them… putting faith in yourself to know what's "right" is asking for trouble.

9 minutes ago, Rykymus said:

As you pointed out, you're looking to solve a mental issue. Stick to that.

I disagree that it's a mental issue.

[downbylaw11]

this thread is giving me a headache.  must be my mechanics

[JonMA1]

11 hours ago, yanni said:

This is 100% me. As I wrote above my pro recorded a video with and without the ball. Pretty night and day difference. 

As soon I do the swing with the ball the weight shift does not happen any more. I don't really understand what the reason is. Somehow my body thinks its wrong to move into over over the ball.

He recommended that I should swing with 20-30% (!) of my power and not do a full swing. This actually improved my striking 100%. The swing is still not 100% as without the ball but way closer. The funny thing about this is I hit the ball way further and very consistant with the 30% of power as compared to something I would think about as 80%. Which I normally do. With the 80% the balls was sometimes a bit longer but most of the time all over the place. Many times way shorter.

I really don't quite understand this. I am swinging with almost no power (clubhead speed probably is at least 15mph slower) but it seems the good contact equals this out totally. 

When doing a full sing with 80% power I think may my shifts away from the ball much more which makes it more difficult to move in the ball again.

I don't know very much about the golf swing, so this is just for the sake of conversation - not to give advise.

One of the popular expressions here is that feel ain't real. There have been times when I've had to exaggerate to the point of doing something wrong  - like shifting my upper body way back and then shift it way forward. But when I looked at the video, my upper body hadn't moved much at all and I was closer to accomplishing the correct move I was after.

 I've read a bunch of anecdotal evidence from so many who have  have gotten more distance with an "easier" swing and I've experienced it as well. My uneducated theory (or is it hypothesis?) is that the improved distance isn't due to just good contact. I think that when I swing easier I'm actually doing more things mechanically correct - sequencing, reducing tension...who knows. But the result may be increased club head speed and better contact as a result of easing up. 

It's like this, when I'm struggling on the course and am having a rough time hitting good shots, I'm physically drained after the round. I think it's because I'm trying to make up for failed mechanics with brute strength and that just doesn't work. It's like I'm fighting against my own body. Lol.

On the other hand, when my swing is feeling good, I can swing a little harder, still make good contact and as a result, get what is probably maximum distance from my limited abilities.

In any case, if swinging easier is helping you accomplish your goals, maybe that's not a bad way to hit balls on the range?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, downbylaw11 said:

this thread is giving me a headache.  must be my mechanics

No need to be a smartass.

I know a thing or two… three on a good day.

[downbylaw11]

youre definitely right about swinging easier causing you to do things more mechanically in sequence. though, i probably lose about 10 yards on each club with an easier swing,  there are times when you really just flush it nicely and it goes the same distance.  I think the most common cause is that when you swing hard, people tend to use up their club head speed before they make contact with the ball, as opposed to making a nice easy swing and getting your max clubhead speed in the hitting zone.   though i've never had much problem with my irons and swinging hard, so sometimes it's hard for me to back off and try to work on things because my body is so used to really going after it all the time because im only 5'7 150lbs.  my driver however has always been tough for me as I have a really tough time trying to swing easy, partly because Im mentally stuck into thinking with a driver you really have to go after it, which is partly true, and because the light graphite shafts cause me to use my upper body and arms far too much.   I still use the woods I got from my first golf set 20 years ago because they are steel and the weight allows me to feel the lag I create and release.  Of course being that it's a 20 year old junk driver, I often switch back to the new technology because the carry distance I get with it is probably 15-20 yards further.  

 

anyways, what were we talking about? 

oh yeah, the practice swing thing.  I think for me the first step in solving this problem is being aware of it, and then trying to be aware when I take my swings, trying as hard as I can to make the same type of swing.  The problem with what I was doing before was I'd take some practice swings, not focusing on where my contact would be, and then I would just walk up to the ball and make a swing not really trying to replicate anything, but just assuming that my swings were the same. clearly they are not, so now I have to bear down and work on it, which is fine, because I love devoting time to working on things.  I've started to notice some improvement already at home and I'll probably head to the range in a few days as Im finally getting a new fairway wood after 20 years.  maybe ill get some video for everyone to pick apart

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

No need to be a smartass.

I know a thing or two… three on a good day.

tell me about yourself.  besides the fact that youre a teacher.  

 

how did you become a teacher

describe your golf journey

what makes you a better teacher than the average range pro

 

and......... go

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, downbylaw11 said:

tell me about yourself.  besides the fact that youre a teacher.  

how did you become a teacher

describe your golf journey

what makes you a better teacher than the average range pro

and......... go

No thank you. Not because I can't, but because I probably have a hundred times here on the site in pieces here and there, and you can search for it, and you can ask many of the people here, or read my book, or countless other things.

Also, you were derogatory toward the site and the members here in how you described the reaction you were sure they'd have to someone posting a swing video.

[downbylaw11]

ok!

[downbylaw11]

a mental issue is causing a breakdown of mechanics.  whether it be as simple as lack of focus, or slightly more complicated, it's still a mental issue that is causing the other issue.  do you think when an mma fighter trains for 6 months on technique and has great sparring sessions and natural ability, but when it comes down to fight night, he can't pull the trigger and use the things he knows, that this is mechanical issue?  there is literally no difference between these 2 scenarios, and if you completely disagree with that, then I honestly have no idea what to say.  theres a reason why sports psychologists are used by a huge number of professional athletes who have a difficult time applying their abilities at the highest levels.  I know you know this