Objections to Derek Ernst thanking God after his win?

[jetsknicks1]

He can be any person he want to be, just not in my face.  Of course it does.  Freedom of religion means the right to be free of any religion, just as it means the right to worship as you please as long as you don't push your beliefs (or lack thereof) on anyone else.  Why would you think that it means anything else?

Because part of having freedom of religion is having the right to talk about whatever your religion might be. Some here act as if somebody talking about their religious beliefs at all, somehow violates their right to not believe in God or religion. I'm on the road all the time for work and will often have people approach me at the gas station wanting to give me literature on this or that religion, which is their right. I politely decline and tell them to have a nice day, I don't get offended or angry because they dared to speak to me. Freedom of religion means that you (not directed personally at you) have the right to not believe anything at all but it does not mean you have the right to tell others they can't mention their beliefs simply because you don't agree with them or don't want to hear it.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by jetsknicks1

Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion.

Actually, yes it does. What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." don't you understand?

[jetsknicks1]

Actually, yes it does. What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." don't you understand?

See my post above for explanation.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by jetsknicks1

See my post above for explanation.

That is not remotely the same thing.

And I have made my position very clear on this. People are free to say what they want, and I am free to be annoyed by it. If somebody is really personally committed to a religious belief, I think that is a very personal thing and they should humbly keep it to themselves. JMO.

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by Yukari

Your questions are irrelevant to your premise which is this country was founded on Christian values. If you read all my rebuttals carefully, that is the only issue I addressed.

You are completely ignoring the issue you yourself brought up.

Is the reason you won't answer my questions (whether you feel they were off the subject or not) because I assumed correctly?

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

That is not remotely the same thing.

And I have made my position very clear on this. People are free to say what they want , and I am free to be annoyed by it. If somebody is really personally committed to a religious belief, I think that is a very personal thing and they should humbly keep it to themselves. JMO.

See below (Fourputts quote).  Some people feel differently.  Fourputt does not believe people are free to say what they want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

He can be any person he want to be, just not in my face.

Of course it does.  Freedom of religion means the right to be free of any religion, just as it means the right to worship as you please as long as you don't push your beliefs (or lack thereof) on anyone else.  Why would you think that it means anything else?

Do you feel that Jason Collins "coming out" publicly was pushing his beliefs in anybodys face?  My personal belief is that the "homosexuality issue" is a religious topic.

[Ole_Tom_Morris]

Some do wear their religion on their sleeve and some do not. There is biblical authority for private prayer and worship versus ostentacious in-your-face declarations of piety. Matthew 6: 1-8, quote:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. ["King James" Version, amusingly so called for one of the more famous homosexuals of history.]

Assuming an omniscient God, why pray in words at all? Public "prayer" is nearly always a disguised lecture to those humans listening and not genuine prayer. An effort by the person leading the prayer to aggrandize himelf before others.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Ole_Tom_Morris

Public "prayer" is nearly always a disguised lecture to those humans listening and not genuine prayer. An effort by the person leading the prayer to aggrandize himelf before others.

Somebody in the room just got "Bingo"!

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by phan52

Quote:

Originally Posted by jetsknicks1

See my post above for explanation.

That is not remotely the same thing.

And I have made my position very clear on this. People are free to say what they want, and I am free to be annoyed by it. If somebody is really personally committed to a religious belief, I think that is a very personal thing and they should humbly keep it to themselves. JMO.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Ole_Tom_Morris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If they feel that God is a personal being, then why not thank him in private instead of waiting until the cameras are rolling?  That is just about the most impersonal forum I can think of.  I doubt that He is watching the broadcast, so He should get the message just as clearly if the player waits until he has some privacy, or at least until he's with friends who understand his feelings and intentions.  I isn't his place to thrust his beliefs into my living room without my permission and against my wishes.

Some do wear their religion on their sleeve and some do not. There is biblical authority for private prayer and worship versus ostentacious in-your-face declarations of piety. Matthew 6: 1-8, quote:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. ["King James" Version, amusingly so called for one of the more famous homosexuals of history.]

Assuming an omniscient God, why pray in words at all? Public "prayer" is nearly always a disguised lecture to those humans listening and not genuine prayer. An effort by the person leading the prayer to aggrandize himelf before others.

Agree.  I don't care how sincere a person is, he still comes across as boastful when he feels that he has to make such statements in an inappropriate forum like a post round interview.  I don't doubt Ernst's sincerity.  What I object to is his (and the other obvious names) use of an interview which should be about golf to step up on the pulpit and preach.

[NuclearMike]

I've changed my thoughts on this.  Those who are deluded enough to think that their God actually worries about how a golfer is doing can say what they want to whomever they want but don't expect me to think that your God gives a hoot about you winning a golf tournament.  What makes me think that such shout outs are disingenuous is that God never comes up if the same player loses, say if Derek Ernst had lost in the playoff.  I still don't have to agree with your beliefs and can choose to like you, not like you, or just not give a crap, just as I wouldn't try to convince anyone else about anything as personal as my own beliefs.  To each his own, until you try to force something on me against my wishes.  For something as simple as mentioning your God after a win?  Go for it.

[Yukari]

You are kidding, right?  Your reach for conclusion is what got you into this non-winnable debate.

You should know better: Don't assume anything...

You know what they say when you assume something...

Now you are trying to change the issue altogether.  I am done with you.

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Is the reason you won't answer my questions (whether you feel they were off the subject or not) because I assumed correctly?

[CharlieM]

IMHO we all are blessed to live in a country that allows us tremendous freedom to come and go as we please and for the most part say what we feel.  I have been deployed all over the world, seen many things that well, are not so good.  Have great memories of friends who are no longer here, not just because I am a Christian but I believe the price has been paid for him to say what he feels.  Do I object to him thanking God, no I am honored to call him a brother.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

1)  Do you believe there are less people following the Christian faith today than 50,100, 200 years ago?

2)  Is this a good thing?

I'll answer the questions.  You want answers?

I think I'm entitled to them.

YOU WANT ANSWERS?!?!?!

(you can pick it up from here ... Just know, that if pressed, I can recite that entire scene from memory.  Just sayin ;))

I digress ... I don't know the answer to the first question.  Perhaps there are more simply due to population, but less as a percentage of the total?  Am I right?  And regarding the second ... it's not really answerable, nor does it matter.  There are good people who claim Christian faith and there are bad people who claim Christian faith, just like there are in every single religion out there including atheism and agnostics.  More good people and less bad people is a good thing, what religion they claim means nothing to society as a whole.

To me, a good thing would be every single person in the world following the philosphy of my favorite bumper sticker ...

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I'll answer the questions.  You want answers?

I think I'm entitled to them.

YOU WANT ANSWERS?!?!?!

(you can pick it up from here ... Just know, that if pressed, I can recite that entire scene from memory.  Just sayin ;))

I digress ... I don't know the answer to the first question.  Perhaps there are more simply due to population, but less as a percentage of the total?  Am I right?  And regarding the second ... it's not really answerable, nor does it matter.  There are good people who claim Christian faith and there are bad people who claim Christian faith, just like there are in every single religion out there including atheism and agnostics.  More good people and less bad people is a good thing, what religion they claim means nothing to society as a whole.

To me, a good thing would be every single person in the world following the philosphy of my favorite bumper sticker ...

I can handle it.  Very well done.  At least you answered what you thought.  My personal belief follows that if more people followed Christian values (and I mean really follow) the world would be a better place.

If everybody just agreed with me it certainly would be easier to do as your bumper sticker suggests.

See that Yukari.  A peaceful disagreement between me and Gdad.  (mainly because I know he has thoughts about punching people in the face, and I know how big he is).  I don't know how big you are, so as of now I am willing to have a go at it with you. jk

Seriously though, Gdad is a class act.  Even though we disagree about things, I think I would still enjoy playing a round of golf with him, and I hope he feels the same about me.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

My personal belief follows that if more people followed Christian values (and I mean really follow) the world would be a better place.

If everybody just agreed with me it certainly would be easier to do as your bumper sticker suggests.

... A peaceful disagreement between me and Gdad.

Actually I don't disagree with this at all.  But, my argument is sort of similar to our argument against you earlier on about the correlation between founding fathers values and Christianity, and that is that there isn't one.

Other than praying to Jesus, pretty much all of the things you call "Christian values" would hold true for just about any good person regardless of faith.  Take out the specifics towards each diety of choice, and the rest of those values are going to be very similar in all religions (and non-religions).

Therefore, if more people followed what you call Christian values, I have no doubt that you are right that the world would be a better place.  However, they could all just as easily follow what I call "values,"  and what my wife may call "Jewish values," or others call "Muslim values," "Buddhist values" etc, etc, (hint: they're almost all the same ;)) and the same would be true.  The world would be a better place.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I really don't have any issue with someone thanking their god if they are religious.  IMO, it's a bit presumptuous to think their god has nothing else better to do on their day off than help a pro golfer win a tournament but whatever works.

+1. I don't care who people choose to thank (or blame) for their fortunes/misfortunes, but give me a break at the same time. I feel the same way when I watch Music/Movie Award shows as well. Whatever makes them feel better and whoever they believe they owe thanks to is fine with me.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kieran123

Can you explain christian values? And how these values are christian? And not just values?

I would call them values that agree with the Christian faith.  (ten commandments...etc)

You can call them just values.

The Ten Commandments were handed down to Moses, an Israelite and a Jew, long before any prophet had the temerity to foresee the coming of Christ.  So in that pretext, the US was founded on Jewish values, not Christian.  The fact that many of the founding fathers had degrees in divinity was in part due to the fact that many schools of higher learning at the time had ties to some religious sect, with religious studies part of the required curriculum.

Most Christian biblical scholars believe that there are prophecies in the Old Testament that point to the coming of Christ. I'm not enough of a biblical scholar (Christian or otherwise) to agree or disagree - I'm just sayin'.

But you do have a point - Christ himself was a Jew so in that sense you can say Christianity was founded on Jewish values.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old1964

Many Christians believe in expressing thanks for every good thing they experience in life - food, health, graduating, getting married, promoted on the job, etc... Some even are thankful in difficult situations, painful times, that they are not going through them alone. They believe that God is a personal being who is connected with each and every one of those who rely on him in the good times and the bad. The expression of gratitude is meant to be an expression of humility - the opposite of arrogance.

If they feel that God is a personal being, then why not thank him in private instead of waiting until the cameras are rolling?  That is just about the most impersonal forum I can think of.  I doubt that He is watching the broadcast, so He should get the message just as clearly if the player waits until he has some privacy, or at least until he's with friends who understand his feelings and intentions.

Because players who thank God on camera are doing it because a major tenet of Christianity, and most religions, is the call to evangelize. They want to show that they believe a large part of their success is due to their faith. (Which is not to say it was due to God "selecting" them to win this time, as many people have misunderstood such comments to mean.)

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm not particularly religious (more spiritual, closer to Buddhism if anything), but again this all seems like a case where people go out of their way to be upset about something.

To what end?

Why?

Exactly. I've enjoyed reading the religious debate and have seen many good points made by both sides - but I don't see how an athlete briefly mentioning his faith in an interview is akin to shoving his beliefs in your face, as so many here seem to feel, and are so bothered by.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

I can handle it.  Very well done.  At least you answered what you thought.  My personal belief follows that if more people followed Christian values (and I mean really follow) the world would be a better place.

If everybody just agreed with me it certainly would be easier to do as your bumper sticker suggests.

See that Yukari.  A peaceful disagreement between me and Gdad.  (mainly because I know he has thoughts about punching people in the face, and I know how big he is).  I don't know how big you are, so as of now I am willing to have a go at it with you. jk

Seriously though, Gdad is a class act.  Even though we disagree about things, I think I would still enjoy playing a round of golf with him, and I hope he feels the same about me.

Please, stop claiming these values as Christian

[boogielicious]

Most Nostradamus scholars can point to a prophecy that Derek Ernst would win at Quail Hollow on shitty greens.

It has become a debate and I am glad that folks kept it civil for the most part.  But I think the OP was really just looking for opinions.  And some folks are just put off by the way the player spoke and others are not.