Lipping out Putts

[pipergsm]

When putting, I usually try to calculate the speed of the ball such that, if I miss the hole, it will not pass it by more than 2 feet, often resulting in the fact that my ball comes up just a little short.

This is not my biggest problem however.

Quite often, I see my ball going in (half) and coming out again (lipping out?).

Is this caused by a specific flaw in the way I put, or is it rather bad luck and will it get better as I practice more?

Thanks for the answers.

[iacas]

It's a combination of hitting the ball too firmly and too far off center (the hole's center).

[pipergsm]

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

It's a combination of hitting the ball too firmly and too far off center (the hole's center).

Hitting the ball off center, or off center from the hole?

Hitting firm means the ball goes too fast, yes?

It often happens when the ball only just reaches the hole. If it wouldn't lip, it would probably stop less than 1 foot behind the hole.

[pipergsm]

  pipergsm said:

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Hitting the ball off center, or off center from the hole?

Hitting firm means the ball goes too fast, yes?

It often happens when the ball only just reaches the hole. If it wouldn't lip, it would probably stop less than 1 foot behind the hole.

Sorry, didn't read the last part, off center from the hole, got it!

[WUTiger]

Here's a couple of tips from GolfTEC*:

• Short Flagstick as Guide: Find a level place on the practice green, and lay down the short flagstick so that it points to the right edge of the cup (for R.handed golfers). Place a ball next to it, and stroke it with your putter. Your putter toe will come just inside the stick, and the ball will be headed for the center of the cup if you hit it squarely. This supposedly helps build alignment and tempo.
• Missing to Edge: If you miss to the left edge a lot, you may be rotating your shoulders sideways on followthrough rather than letting them "rock" back and forth in a pendulum.
• Coming Up Short: You may not be accelerating smoothly on your forward stroke.

*Mercedes-Benz teamed up with GolfTEC at the recent Senior PGA Championship to give a computerized swing analysis and putting analysis to people who came to the tournament.

Also, you might look into the arc of your putting stroke. Ping suggests you make sure your putter type matches your arc.

[pipergsm]

  WUTiger said:

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Here's a couple of tips from GolfTEC*:

Short Flagstick as Guide: Find a level place on the practice green, and lay down the short flagstick so that it points to the right edge of the cup (for R.handed golfers). Place a ball next to it, and stroke it with your putter. Your putter toe will come just inside the stick, and the ball will be headed for the center of the cup if you hit it squarely. This supposedly helps build alignment and tempo.

Missing to Edge: If you miss to the left edge a lot, you may be rotating your shoulders sideways on followthrough rather than letting them "rock" back and forth in a pendulum.

Coming Up Short: You may not be accelerating smoothly on your forward stroke.

*Mercedes-Benz teamed up with GolfTEC at the recent Senior PGA Championship to give a computerized swing analysis and putting analysis to people who came to the tournament.

Also, you might look into the arc of your putting stroke. Ping suggests you make sure your putter type matches your arc.

Thanks!

But it often happens when I need to hit it right or left because of a break on the green.

The ball will then make the break, hit the edge of the hole, but instead of going in, lips out.

It even happened several times that the ball went straight over the hole without dropping, while the speed of the ball was, in my opinion, not extremely high (never see that happening with other golfers!)

This is why I started putting at such a speed that the ball can't go much behind the hole.

[pipergsm]

  WUTiger said:

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Here's a couple of tips from GolfTEC*:

Short Flagstick as Guide: Find a level place on the practice green, and lay down the short flagstick so that it points to the right edge of the cup (for R.handed golfers). Place a ball next to it, and stroke it with your putter. Your putter toe will come just inside the stick, and the ball will be headed for the center of the cup if you hit it squarely. This supposedly helps build alignment and tempo.

Missing to Edge: If you miss to the left edge a lot, you may be rotating your shoulders sideways on followthrough rather than letting them "rock" back and forth in a pendulum.

Coming Up Short: You may not be accelerating smoothly on your forward stroke.

*Mercedes-Benz teamed up with GolfTEC at the recent Senior PGA Championship to give a computerized swing analysis and putting analysis to people who came to the tournament.

Also, you might look into the arc of your putting stroke. Ping suggests you make sure your putter type matches your arc.

What exactly do you mean with "arc of the putting stroke"?

I (try to) swing the putter like a pendulum always, straight back, straight forward, on line to the target.

[saevel25]

  pipergsm said:

Originally Posted by pipergsm

What exactly do you mean with "arc of the putting stroke"?

I (try to) swing the putter like a pendulum always, straight back, straight forward, on line to the target.

This is pings method of fitting putters. Basically putters are designed to mach your stroke type. Your stroke type is straight - straight, they still call it an arc, oh well.

Personally i don't like straight - straight, its to hard to do that type of stroke for me. I end up cutting across the ball. I am an arc putter, basically the clubhead will go back and in on the backstroke, arc back to the ball, and then a slightly shallow arc going into the fllow through. Its just what's naturally for me. I hate forcing the putt. Putting requires so much feel, i rather see someone do something that feels effortless. I putt horrible when i tihnk.

Basically lipping out happens most when you have a slight curve to a straight putt that has to much speed for the ball to be captured by the hole. Look up Putting Capture speed here on the Forum. Its a cool subject to think about. Basically gravity pulls the ball into the hole, and if you have to much speed then the ball doesn't have enough time for the ball to fall into the hole before it catches the edge and lips out. Its why i tend to want the ball to die into the hole, maximize the chance of the ball to catch the edge. This is why uphill putts to me are easier to make, the ball is slowing down at a greater rate, and a higher chance of it falling into the hole.

[pipergsm]

  saevel25 said:

Originally Posted by saevel25

This is pings method of fitting putters. Basically putters are designed to mach your stroke type. Your stroke type is straight - straight, they still call it an arc, oh well.

Personally i don't like straight - straight, its to hard to do that type of stroke for me. I end up cutting across the ball. I am an arc putter, basically the clubhead will go back and in on the backstroke, arc back to the ball, and then a slightly shallow arc going into the fllow through. Its just what's naturally for me. I hate forcing the putt. Putting requires so much feel, i rather see someone do something that feels effortless. I putt horrible when i tihnk.

Basically lipping out happens most when you have a slight curve to a straight putt that has to much speed for the ball to be captured by the hole. Look up Putting Capture speed here on the Forum. Its a cool subject to think about. Basically gravity pulls the ball into the hole, and if you have to much speed then the ball doesn't have enough time for the ball to fall into the hole before it catches the edge and lips out. Its why i tend to want the ball to die into the hole, maximize the chance of the ball to catch the edge. This is why uphill putts to me are easier to make, the ball is slowing down at a greater rate, and a higher chance of it falling into the hole.

Thanks for the explanation.

I also try to let the ball die into the hole, but it still happens!

So many times I see other golfers doing it and the ball drops.

But with me, even when the ball goes slow, if it doesn't hit the hole 100% pure, it lips out!

I'ts come so far that I'm really surprised whenever a lip goes in!

Could this be caused by the kind of spin my stroke generates?

[saevel25]

Not really, even if you put side spin on a putt (very hard to do) the ball will still roll with top spin.

I am thinking your just hitting it to hard, even you think the ball is dying in the hole. If it doesn't lip out, how far past the hole do your putts go? Even so, if your just catching the lip, any sort of speed on the ball will cause a lip no matter what. So, its all relative to what your perceiving and what's actually happening. You never know, maybe your playing partners are catching more of the hole, but from your perspective it looks similar to your putts.

[pipergsm]

  saevel25 said:

Originally Posted by saevel25

Not really, even if you put side spin on a putt (very hard to do) the ball will still roll with top spin.

I am thinking your just hitting it to hard, even you think the ball is dying in the hole. If it doesn't lip out, how far past the hole do your putts go? Even so, if your just catching the lip, any sort of speed on the ball will cause a lip no matter what. So, its all relative to what your perceiving and what's actually happening. You never know, maybe your playing partners are catching more of the hole, but from your perspective it looks similar to your putts.

Mmmm, maybe you're right and I'm just not seeing it.

I do seem to have a little problem with my eyes.

I feel it mostly when I have to estimate distances, sometimes I'm way of.

Also when I drive the ball, whenever it passes 200, I have a serious problem just seeing the ball, both in the air as at touch down.

[pipergsm]

Another 2 examples of strangely missed putts.

I played 9 holes today, finishing in 45, not bad for me.

Just a pity of those very close misses I had today (5) from which I'd like to hear your comments on what could be the cause.

1st was from 18 feet, straight line.

I hit the ball quite well, it reaches the hole just left of the center line, and just in front of the hole it makes a strange bounce and jumps over!

Any ideas?

2nd from 21 feet, straight line again.

the ball goes in, hits the back of the hole and bounces out again, staying still on the edge of the hole!

Are these misses purely a problem of ball speed, or is there something else going on?

The other misses were just a matter of the ball kissing the edge of the hole, or stopping just in front of it (usually with some slope and break, and from 9 to 25 feet)

Thanks for your reactions!

[MS256]

  pipergsm said:

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Another 2 examples of strangely missed putts.

I played 9 holes today, finishing in 45, not bad for me.

Just a pity of those very close misses I had today (5) from which I'd like to hear your comments on what could be the cause.

1st was from 18 feet, straight line.

I hit the ball quite well, it reaches the hole just left of the center line, and just in front of the hole it makes a strange bounce and jumps over!

Any ideas?

2nd from 21 feet, straight line again.

the ball goes in, hits the back of the hole and bounces out again, staying still on the edge of the hole!

Are these misses purely a problem of ball speed, or is there something else going on?

The other misses were just a matter of the ball kissing the edge of the hole, or stopping just in front of it (usually with some slope and break, and from 9 to 25 feet)

Thanks for your reactions!

No way to say for sure about your putts. Sometimes we simply get bad bounces or catch some grain that has more influence than we expected. I do my best to follow Brad Faxon's advice and make the best read I can, make the best roll I can, and not worry about it if it doesn't go in.

Not pertaining to you (because I've never seen you roll the ball) but in general a very good roll is influenced less by bad bounces and grain than bad rolls. Not all good rolls go in the hole and not all bad rolls miss but at the end of the day the percentages are much higher for the really good rolls.

I really try to not be influenced by a "read" I get from someone that I know can't roll the ball. Their ball will almost always break more than mine.

Best test (and practice) to check the roll: Put a line around the ball, put a chalk line on the green on a straight putt, and roll the ball down the chalk line making sure the line on the ball has no wobble as it rolls.

Just one of my quirks: I never practice putting at a hole (ever). Instead I practice putting at a dime. Mentally the last thing I want to do before a round is to miss a putt. If I miss a dime it doesn't have the same effect.

[Mr. Desmond]

  pipergsm said:

What exactly do you mean with "arc of the putting stroke"? I (try to) swing the putter like a pendulum always, straight back, straight forward, on line to the target.

That's a problem You stand to the side of the ball How can you do straight back and straight through unless your upper body is parallel to the ground ala Michelle Wie

[pipergsm]

My upper body is indeed bent over quite strongly.

Don't know if its really parallel to the ground though.

[WUTiger]

About two years ago, an optometrist explained the problem of "staright back, straight forward." He said if you really do pull it straight back (not allowing minimal arc), you usually pull your backstroke to the outside. Then, on the forward stroke, you may miss to the left.

[Golfingdad]

  pipergsm said:

Originally Posted by pipergsm

When putting, I usually try to calculate the speed of the ball such that, if I miss the hole, it will not pass it by more than 2 feet, often resulting in the fact that my ball comes up just a little short.

This is not my biggest problem however.

Quite often, I see my ball going in (half) and coming out again (lipping out?).

Is this caused by a specific flaw in the way I put, or is it rather bad luck and will it get better as I practice more?

It's pure physics.  The ball is going too fast relative to how off line it is from the center of the hole.  I had this playing partner today say "Ah, you got robbed" to me a couple of times when I lipped out.  Now, I didn't get robbed, I hit the putt wrong, plain and simple.

  pipergsm said:

Originally Posted by pipergsm

(never see that happening with other golfers!)

Then you either always play alone, or you are really not paying attention.  Again, it's physics.  If the ball is going too fast, it's going to lip out.

  pipergsm said:

Originally Posted by pipergsm

So many times I see other golfers doing it and the ball drops.

But with me, even when the ball goes slow, if it doesn't hit the hole 100% pure, it lips out!

You're delusional.  Nothing "special" is happening to you.  The putts that you see falling (whether yours or anybody elses) are hit with proper speed (relative to how off center they are) and the ones that miss are not.

  pipergsm said:

Originally Posted by pipergsm

1st was from 18 feet, straight line.

I hit the ball quite well, it reaches the hole just left of the center line, and just in front of the hole it makes a strange bounce and jumps over!

Any ideas?

2nd from 21 feet, straight line again.

the ball goes in, hits the back of the hole and bounces out again, staying still on the edge of the hole!

Are these misses purely a problem of ball speed, or is there something else going on?

Yes, Patrick.

[trackster]

I played a cheap par 3 9 hole course last year with my girlfriend and got to enjoy 22 putts.  After I was missing 6 inch putts that should have dropped on multiple holes I started inspecting the holes.  They were definitely not cut out right.  If you were not dead centering the hole the ball was not going to fall in.  It was actually kind of comical to see the ball dance its way out of the hole.