2013 NFL Football

[RonTheSavage]

We were all immature and dumb when we were young......   ;-)

LOL!!! Ok that was a good one

[JetFan1983]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Haha, exactly.

That said, to his credit, he also drafted Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, and Zane Beadles that year, so not all bad. Still... Tebow.... Yikes. That must still sting.

Haha yea.

The Ravens gave their 1st rounder and the Broncos gave their 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders. Oops.

And Sanchez was taken at the fifth pick.  Sorry @JetFan1983, you tossed a softball on that one.

It just goes to show that college performance at QB and NFL are entirely different. There are so many great running QBs in the NCAA this year..  It just never seems to translate to the NFL.

Why you gotta kick a man when he's down @boogielicious ?

Whatever, Sanchez sucks and he'll be released soon as well. Or how about the fact that both Sanchez and Tebow were teammates last year? Yah. That's the world I exist in, and it's not a pleasant one.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Haha, exactly.

That said, to his credit, he also drafted Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, and Zane Beadles that year, so not all bad. Still... Tebow.... Yikes. That must still sting.

Haha yea.

The Ravens gave their 1st rounder and the Broncos gave their 2nd, 3rd and 4th rounders. Oops.

And Sanchez was taken at the fifth pick.  Sorry @JetFan1983, you tossed a softball on that one.

It just goes to show that college performance at QB and NFL are entirely different. There are so many great running QBs in the NCAA this year..  It just never seems to translate to the NFL.

Why you gotta kick a man when he's down @boogielicious ?

Whatever, Sanchez sucks and he'll be released soon as well. Or how about the fact that both Sanchez and Tebow were teammates last year? Yah. That's the world I exist in, and it's not a pleasant one.

LOL... I can feel for you.

[iacas]

Been off the boards for a few days and boy did I miss alot. I have to say GOOOOO NINERS! And when I heard what happened to the Steelers I immediately thought that was karma coming back to bite Tomlin for his "sideline antics" a few weeks ago.

He was fined heavily for that, and if you watch him, he almost always watches the scoreboard on kickoffs and punts. It wasn't unusual - it's just the first time he's been caught standing there when the play continued and on that side.

Missed calls like that at the end of the game bother me very little because I recognize that there are missed calls all throughout the game (any game) that could have mattered just as much (there's no way of knowing).

Incorrect. How much a penalty affects play decreases with each subsequent play. A play that occurs on the first play of the game has less of an impact than any play that occurs afterwards because teams have less time to respond.

The same is true about calls throughout the season.

Now, on the other hand, had KC missed that field goal because it was blocked, because the Chargers set up with too many men on that side of the field, then it's a whole different story.

That's not a whole different story. They lined up improperly, and weren't penalized.

But a missed illegal procedure penalty, where the "procedure" that was illegal had no bearing on the play?  Meh.  No big whoop to me.

This is a big problem with your position: you can't say it had no bearing on the play. He missed it to the side opposite where the pressure would likely come. That's why the rule exists - to prevent a team from almost guaranteeing that someone will be able to freely rush at the kicker.

I didn't know the rule at the time, but I noticed that they were lining up to really try to block it from that side, and it didn't surprise me that he pushed it away from the pressure. At the time - again, not knowing it was illegal - I gave SD a little credit.

(I'm with you on the fake punt though.  I don't necessarily agree with Periera that they definitely didn't make the first down - because I've still not seen a good replay - but that was a ridiculous oversight not to at least take a look at it)

Plus, as Steelers fans learned earlier this year when they were deprived of a TD because the ball was spotted at the exact spot it was when a player's helmet came off, you'd have thought they'd want to look at that and make sure they got that right too.

OT stuff: if the play truly stops when a helmet comes off, couldn't you remove your helmet when a team intercepts the ball and has a good chance of getting a pick six?

Back to the topic: they should have looked at the fumble, the spot of the ball, etc. No whistles blew until the KC player was in the end zone.

[Hack2putt]

We were all immature and dumb when we were young......

booya!! lol

[Golfingdad]

Missed calls like that at the end of the game bother me very little because I recognize that there are missed calls all throughout the game (any game) that could have mattered just as much (there's no way of knowing).

Incorrect. How much a penalty affects play decreases with each subsequent play. A play that occurs on the first play of the game has less of an impact than any play that occurs afterwards because teams have less time to respond.

OK, perhaps I overstated in saying they matter "just as much," but, certainly, missed calls like this can affect the outcome of games no matter when they occur.  If this happened in the first quarter, it's still 3 potential points the refs prevented the Chiefs from scoring, right?  That could mean a world of difference in a league where the most popular final score year in and year out is, seemingly, 20-17.

Check this out: http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/san-diego-chargers-cheated-to-make-playoffs-pittsbugh-steelers-should-be-in/ Sort of similar to my original example of the Titans getting away with an offensive interference to help win that game, the Chargers were also screwed by the refs (this one, just like last week, admitted by the NFL) in week 1.

Now, on the other hand, had KC missed that field goal because it was blocked, because the Chargers set up with too many men on that side of the field, then it's a whole different story.

That's not a whole different story. They lined up improperly, and weren't penalized.

It is because I'm talking about my opinion here.  I said in the upper quote that "missed calls like this BOTHER ME VERY LITTLE ..." and when I say it's a "whole different story," I'm amending my original statement.  I'm saying, if they really did gain an advantage then "missed calls like this would bother me very much."  So it is a whole different story. ;)

But a missed illegal procedure penalty, where the "procedure" that was illegal had no bearing on the play?  Meh.  No big whoop to me.

This is a big problem with your position: you can't say it had no bearing on the play. He missed it to the side opposite where the pressure would likely come. That's why the rule exists - to prevent a team from almost guaranteeing that someone will be able to freely rush at the kicker.

I didn't know the rule at the time, but I noticed that they were lining up to really try to block it from that side, and it didn't surprise me that he pushed it away from the pressure. At the time - again, not knowing it was illegal - I gave SD a little credit.

You're right, I can't say that for sure.  But I watched the replay again and it looks to me like nobody really provided any pressure on the kick, so I doubt it had any bearing on the play.

Further, I could get technical if I want.  I believe they Line judges call Illegal Procedure on tackles all the time for being 1/2 yard behind the line of scrimmage trying to get a jump on the DE on obvious passing plays, so I could make the argument that the 2nd guy from the center isn't on the line of scrimmage.  You can see he's behind the guy on either side of him.  Same could be true for the guy on the far right.  (In the picture in the link above, it's #2 and #7 I'm referring to)

OT stuff: if the play truly stops when a helmet comes off, couldn't you remove your helmet when a team intercepts the ball and has a good chance of getting a pick six?

No idea.  (First of all, I thought the rule about play stopping when helmets come off was only true of college.)  But in your scenario, I imagine there is some sort of "game misconduct" type penalty along with an enormous fine.  Somewhat related:  Anybody know what would happen if Tomlin actually tripped that guy and prevented him from scoring a touchdown?  Would be a similar level of infraction I assume.

[saevel25]

I think the helmet rules are for those in the play. I dont' think a QB who is standing 40 yards from the defender who picked off the ball can stop the play by removing his helmet. I believe it is a penalty for a player to get involved in a play with out a helmet. Though that might be college football only. So if a defender gets his helmet knocked off, I believe it is illegal for him to go an then make a tackle. As for a receiver, that was the Jason Whitten rule right? Where he kept on running after his helmet came off. I believe that is the reason now they call the play dead. Basically a person with the ball can not advance the ball when he doesn't have a helmet.

I agree with Erik, plays at the end of the game matter substantially more. There is a cool sabermetric with baseball about win expectancy. Basically up until the 7th inning, unless it is a blow out, most baseball games are with in +/- 5% for either team. Once you reach the 7th inning, the % changes drastically depending on the situation. So like 7th inning 1 more run counts way more in the % of a team winning than it does in the 3rd inning. Though it is still a point in the overall score, as for determining who wins and who looses, and the odds, it matters more at the end of the game.

[iacas]

OK, perhaps I overstated in saying they matter "just as much," but, certainly, missed calls like this can affect the outcome of games no matter when they occur.  If this happened in the first quarter, it's still 3 potential points the refs prevented the Chiefs from scoring, right?

Yes but it changes the strategies going forward, and gives you more time to assess and recover.

Would you rather be bankrupted when you're 20 or 70? Would you rather triple bogey the first hole or the 18th hole? If you triple the first, you have time to atone.

You're right, I can't say that for sure.  But I watched the replay again and it looks to me like nobody really provided any pressure on the kick, so I doubt it had any bearing on the play.

Do you know for certain that the kicker didn't miss right because he saw that pressure would come from the left? Like I said, my initial reaction - ignorant of the rule - was that SD had done a good job to force the miss.

Further, I could get technical if I want.  I believe they Line judges call Illegal Procedure on tackles all the time for being 1/2 yard behind the line of scrimmage trying to get a jump on the DE on obvious passing plays, so I could make the argument that the 2nd guy from the center isn't on the line of scrimmage.  You can see he's behind the guy on either side of him.  Same could be true for the guy on the far right.  (In the picture in the link above, it's #2 and #7 I'm referring to)

A) I don't see Illegal Procedure called very often at all. And I don't recall ever seeing it for 1/2 yard because…

B) You're allowed to be within about a foot or two of the line of scrimmage to be considered "on" the line of scrimmage. This grey area is so that you don't have people in the neutral zone because they're trying to be within inches of the "line" of scrimmage.

No idea.  (First of all, I thought the rule about play stopping when helmets come off was only true of college.)

It's not.

But in your scenario, I imagine there is some sort of "game misconduct" type penalty along with an enormous fine.  Somewhat related:  Anybody know what would happen if Tomlin actually tripped that guy and prevented him from scoring a touchdown?  Would be a similar level of infraction I assume.

I'm not saying that you make an obvious move to remove your helmet. I'm saying you make it look like it comes off.

But the simpler answer may be that the rule might only apply to the ball carrier and his helmet.

[Golfingdad]

Yes but it changes the strategies going forward, and gives you more time to assess and recover.

Would you rather be bankrupted when you're 20 or 70? Would you rather triple bogey the first hole or the 18th hole? If you triple the first, you have time to atone.

I conceded that it doesn't matter as much, but it still matters.  The Chargers may have still lost that first game had the refs not blown that call that was early in the fourth quarter.  But seeing as how they lost by 3 on a field goal as time expired ... I wouldn't bet on that.

Do you know for certain that the kicker didn't miss right because he saw that pressure would come from the left? Like I said, my initial reaction - ignorant of the rule - was that SD had done a good job to force the miss.

The first line of my post that you quoted here says "You're right, I can't say that for sure." ;)

A) I don't see Illegal Procedure called very often at all. And I don't recall ever seeing it for 1/2 yard because…

B) You're allowed to be within about a foot or two of the line of scrimmage to be considered "on" the line of scrimmage. This grey area is so that you don't have people in the neutral zone because they're trying to be within inches of the "line" of scrimmage.

I admitted I was "getting technical," however, maybe I should have better described it as "picking nits." ;)  The picture is from the rear.  #2 and #7 are a foot or two behind the rest of their guys ... but maybe those other 5 are already a foot or two behind the line? ;)  (Either way ... I'm basically just trying to be a pain here so hopefully it's working. )

------------------------------------

Yeah, Matt's explanation about the helmet rule only applying to those directly involved in the play makes a lot of sense.

[Fourputt]

It is because I'm talking about my opinion here.  I said in the upper quote that "missed calls like this BOTHER ME VERY LITTLE ..." and when I say it's a "whole different story," I'm amending my original statement.  I'm saying, if they really did gain an advantage then "missed calls like this would bother me very much."  So it is a whole different story. ;)

I'm betting that it would bother you a lot more if the situation was reversed and the Bolts missed the playoffs because of such a ridiculously blown call.

[Golfingdad]

I'm betting that it would bother you a lot more if the situation was reversed and the Bolts missed the playoffs because of such a ridiculously blown call.

I can't make you believe me but I promise you it wouldn't. I'd be pissed that my kicker missed a chip shot, and I'd be pissed that the refs didn't review the fake punt, but this wouldn't bother me in the least. You should know this from some of our previous golf rules discussions, but I'm just not that interested in penalties that are incurred by things that didn't affect the outcome of the game. For example: I hate it when Peyton manning does that quick snap thing to draw a penalty on the defense because they're subbing players and the guy that's going off the field and is 30 yards away from anything but has one foot still on the field so they get 5 free yards. A lot if people call that smart, and that's fine, but I call it bush league. Erik thinks this infraction actually did affect the outcome and that's fine too, but I disagree. Kickers aren't looking at anything but the ball when they're approaching to kick.

[SloverUT]

I can't make you believe me but I promise you it wouldn't. I'd be pissed that my kicker missed a chip shot, and I'd be pissed that the refs didn't review the fake punt, but this wouldn't bother me in the least.

You should know this from some of our previous golf rules discussions, but I'm just not that interested in penalties that are incurred by things that didn't affect the outcome of the game.

For example: I hate it when Peyton manning does that quick snap thing to draw a penalty on the defense because they're subbing players and the guy that's going off the field and is 30 yards away from anything but has one foot still on the field so they get 5 free yards. A lot if people call that smart, and that's fine, but I call it bush league.

Erik thinks this infraction actually did affect the outcome and that's fine too, but I disagree. Kickers aren't looking at anything but the ball when they're approaching to kick.

The problem, in my opinion, with your line of thinking is that it puts even more judgement on the refs when they are already struggling with what is currently on their plate.  Instead of deciding if a rule was broken, they now have to decide if the rule that was broken had any impact on the current play.  That is almost impossible to decipher.  While you assume, and probably correctly, that the penalty we are discussing had no impact on the kicker missing, how can we know for sure?

If a defensive back is called for holding on a receiver that wasn't targeted, does the flag get picked back up?  How do we decide if that hold effected the route enough to keep the QB from throwing him the ball, or was he going with another target from the get go?

I feel like that is putting more grey in a world that needs to be black and white.

[Golfingdad]

The problem, in my opinion, with your line of thinking is that it puts even more judgement on the refs when they are already struggling with what is currently on their plate.  Instead of deciding if a rule was broken, they now have to decide if the rule that was broken had any impact on the current play.  That is almost impossible to decipher.  While you assume, and probably correctly, that the penalty we are discussing had no impact on the kicker missing, how can we know for sure?

If a defensive back is called for holding on a receiver that wasn't targeted, does the flag get picked back up?  How do we decide if that hold effected the route enough to keep the QB from throwing him the ball, or was he going with another target from the get go?

I feel like that is putting more grey in a world that needs to be black and white.

Yeah, I don't really disagree with you.  I'm not actually suggesting that the rules be changed, I'm just suggesting that I don't care if they miss a call here and there.

For one, I've already given an example from this season (see the link I provided a few posts back) that arguably cost the Chargers a win.  If you insist that the Steelers got screwed out of the playoffs this week, and were consistent, then you'd kind of have to agree that the Chargers should've already had one more win, thus making last weekends game moot.  So if you acknowledge that these kind of missed calls happen more than just last weekend, then you can be less offended by that one call.

Secondly, I wouldn't be complaining if they did make the call, because it would have been the right call.  It's just that in my opinion, what the Chargers did in no way helped them win, so its not a big missed call to me.

I saw a play a few weeks ago where they called holding on the return team during a punt ... and the returner made a fair catch.  Nothing wrong with that, but since it couldn't possibly have had any bearing on the outcome of the play, then I wouldn't mind if they picked up that flag, or never threw it.

Call me liberal, call me a nut, call me clueless, but this is what I think. ;)

P.S.  We watch the New York New Year's and then call it a night so ... Happy New Year, all you crazies!!!

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by SloverUT

The problem, in my opinion, with your line of thinking is that it puts even more judgement on the refs when they are already struggling with what is currently on their plate.  Instead of deciding if a rule was broken, they now have to decide if the rule that was broken had any impact on the current play.  That is almost impossible to decipher.  While you assume, and probably correctly, that the penalty we are discussing had no impact on the kicker missing, how can we know for sure?

If a defensive back is called for holding on a receiver that wasn't targeted, does the flag get picked back up?  How do we decide if that hold effected the route enough to keep the QB from throwing him the ball, or was he going with another target from the get go?

I feel like that is putting more grey in a world that needs to be black and white.

Yeah, I don't really disagree with you.  I'm not actually suggesting that the rules be changed, I'm just suggesting that I don't care if they miss a call here and there.

For one, I've already given an example from this season (see the link I provided a few posts back) that arguably cost the Chargers a win.  If you insist that the Steelers got screwed out of the playoffs this week, and were consistent, then you'd kind of have to agree that the Chargers should've already had one more win, thus making last weekends game moot.  So if you acknowledge that these kind of missed calls happen more than just last weekend, then you can be less offended by that one call.

A lot of pass interference situations are not cut and dried.  An illegal formation is, or should be, a no-brainer for an NFL crew.  That is as basic as it gets.  I strongly disagree that the refs should be picking and choosing which fouls to call and which not to call.  See an infraction, call it out.  Sometimes two refs will see a play differently, then they get together and have a conflab to sort it out.  Sometimes when they do that they actually get it right.

Quote:

I saw a play a few weeks ago where they called holding on the return team during a punt ... and the returner made a fair catch.  Nothing wrong with that, but since it couldn't possibly have had any bearing on the outcome of the play, then I wouldn't mind if they picked up that flag, or never threw it.

I agree that a holding or illegal block on the opposite side of the field from the play is frustrating, especially if the offending team is the one you root for, but that really doesn't matter.  The player knows, or should know, how to block properly and if he doesn't he should be caught out.  If he is blocking that enthusiastically, then he must be under the impression that his act will have some influence on the play, even if it's only as a decoy.  Picking up a flag should not occur unless it is determined that the official was mistaken in what he saw.  If the foul did indeed occur, then it should be penalized.

In golf or in football, a foul is a foul, and it's potential impact on the game isn't up to the official to decide.

[boogielicious]

Not sold out yet?  Shame.  I can see the GB/SF game because of the forecast (8F max!), but Pack fans are hardy individuals.  But the Bengals game will be in the 30s and the Colts game is indoors!

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000307767/article/bengals-colts-packers-havent-sold-out-playoff-games

[David in FL]

The Pack is surprising. Cold or not, they always sell out at Lambeau.

[phan52]

I can't make you believe me but I promise you it wouldn't. I'd be pissed that my kicker missed a chip shot, and I'd be pissed that the refs didn't review the fake punt, but this wouldn't bother me in the least.

You should know this from some of our previous golf rules discussions, but I'm just not that interested in penalties that are incurred by things that didn't affect the outcome of the game.

For example: I hate it when Peyton manning does that quick snap thing to draw a penalty on the defense because they're subbing players and the guy that's going off the field and is 30 yards away from anything but has one foot still on the field so they get 5 free yards. A lot if people call that smart, and that's fine, but I call it bush league.

Erik thinks this infraction actually did affect the outcome and that's fine too, but I disagree. Kickers aren't looking at anything but the ball when they're approaching to kick.

I agree with you that the infraction had zero effect on the kicker. But a rule is a rule. And from one of the camera angles, it was clear that one of the refs was standing right behind the part of the formation with the seven players. He's gotta call that regardless. I shed no tears for the stinkin' Steelers and they really have nobody else to blame but themselves for their plight because of their awful start, but they got screwed.

[Golfingdad]

I agree with you that the infraction had zero effect on the kicker. But a rule is a rule. And from one of the camera angles, it was clear that one of the refs was standing right behind the part of the formation with the seven players. He's gotta call that regardless. I shed no tears for the stinkin' Steelers and they really have nobody else to blame but themselves for their plight because of their awful start, but they got screwed.

But if you believe that, then the extension of that view is that the chargers got screwed in game 1, (per the story in my link a few posts back) hence the steelers really didn't get screwed because they would have already been eliminated. Yes, this call was missed, but so were several others that also impacted games, but since this one happened at the end of the last game of the season, it's the only one people want to remember.