Tiger's Two-Stroke Penalty at 2013 BMW Championship?

[Maddog10]

The ball moved and by the rules, the call was right. I don't like the rule, but it was the right call... Also, I agree that the penalty is way to strict for this type of thing. That movement in no way, shape, or form, improved his lie or gave him even the slightest advantage. It seems to me that a more appropriate way to handle this would be to have the player recreate the lie. I realize that if you start allowing players to move the ball, then where do you draw the line, but a 2 stroke penalty for 1 millimeter of movement is ridiculous. But hey, that's golf. Also, I hate that outside agencies can make calls regarding the pros. Nobody can call into the NFL and report a holding penalty that wasn't called, or call the NBA to report that a player stepped out of bounds. If the rules want to be taken out of the players hands, then send a couple rules officials with every group. Outside of that, leave the officiating to the players and the officials. This only affects guys that are at the top of the sport, which is unfair IMO. Nobody is going to call in on the guy that we've never heard of that's way back in the pack.

[rkim291968]

The ball moved and by the rules, the call was right. I don't like the rule, but it was the right call... Also, I agree that the penalty is way to strict for this type of thing. That movement in no way, shape, or form, improved his lie or gave him even the slightest advantage. It seems to me that a more appropriate way to handle this would be to have the player recreate the lie. I realize that if you start allowing players to move the ball, then where do you draw the line, but a 2 stroke penalty for 1 millimeter of movement is ridiculous. But hey, that's golf.

Also, I hate that outside agencies can make calls regarding the pros. Nobody can call into the NFL and report a holding penalty that wasn't called, or call the NBA to report that a player stepped out of bounds. If the rules want to be taken out of the players hands, then send a couple rules officials with every group. Outside of that, leave the officiating to the players and the officials. This only affects guys that are at the top of the sport, which is unfair IMO. Nobody is going to call in on the guy that we've never heard of that's way back in the pack.

100% in agreement.   The rule needs to change in both (too strict/big of penalty, outside calling in).

Following the rule, 2 stroke penalty on Tiger is a correct call and I never disputed that.  It's the absurdity of the rules and how they applied is what I am objecting to.

[RayG]

The "big boys" tend to be the ones most scrutinized. Some journeyman could probably roll it over in the fairway and not get a call in from some nutjob in his mancave. The process itself is unfair because of the unequal coverage involved. Even when Tiger is 12 shots back on a Saturday or Sunday, we get every one of HIS shots, but nothing of his partners even if that guy is going lights out.

[David in FL]

100% in agreement.   The rule needs to change in both (too strict/big of penalty, outside calling in).   Following the rule, 2 stroke penalty on Tiger is a correct call and I never disputed that.  It's the absurdity of the rules and how they applied is what I am objecting to.

You don't believe there should be a 1 stroke penalty for moving your ball? What should the penalty be?

[rkim291968]

You don't believe there should be a 1 stroke penalty for moving your ball? What should the penalty be?

One stroke penalty for causing the ball to move, and that should be it.   The ball practically didn't go anywhere so why should there be another penalty stroke for hitting the next ball from a different position.  Now, if the ball moved and improved the position significantly, 2 stroke should be assessed.   But just about every similar situation I've seen on PGA tour event, the ball moved accidentally (was not intended) and didn't give significant advantage to the player.   And yet, it's automatic 2 stroke penalty, after the fact as in Tiger's case.

I also believe, once play is over, you can't go back to video replay based on viewer's report and changed the score.

[David in FL]

One stroke penalty for causing the ball to move, and that should be it.   The ball practically didn't go anywhere so why should there be another penalty stroke for hitting the next ball from a different position.  Now, if the ball moved and improved the position significantly, 2 stroke should be assessed.   But just about every similar situation I've seen on PGA tour event, the ball moved accidentally or unintentionally and didn't give significant advantage to the player.   And yet, it's automatic 2 stroke penalty, after the fact as in Tiger's case.   I also believe, once play is over, you can't go back to video replay based on viewer's report and changed the score.

So you don't believe that a ball that's moved in violation of the rules should be replaced?

[luu5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

I basically agree with you, but how do you replace a ball that has moved downward in the grass?  i.e.  Suppose you are sitting up in bermuda rough and the ball sinks down when you address it.  You call the penalty on yourself and seek to replace the ball to avoid a 2 shot penalty but can't seem to get the ball to stay at the higher elevation on the grass.  What then?

Decision 20-3d/3, end of it

Quote:

If the nearest spot where the ball will remain at rest is Point X, must the player place the ball there, even though that point is vertically below the original lie?

And the answer is "yes".

[luu5]

No. A one stroke penalty for moving his golf ball. Another for playing the next shot from the wrong spot (not replacing the ball after it had moved).

I would say both penalties came from breach of 18-2, not from 18-2 and 20-7. 18-2 has general penalty of 2 strokes.

[David in FL]

I would say both penalties came from breach of 18-2, not from 18-2 and 20-7. 18-2 has general penalty of 2 strokes .

I don't think so..... 18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie Or Equipment a. General Except as permitted by the Rules, when a player’s ball is in play, if (i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies: • lifts or moves the ball, • touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing the ball), or • causes the ball to move, or (ii) the equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move, [COLOR=FF00AA] the player incurs a penalty of one stroke [/COLOR]. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.

[MEfree]

The "big boys" tend to be the ones most scrutinized. Some journeyman could probably roll it over in the fairway and not get a call in from some nutjob in his mancave. The process itself is unfair because of the unequal coverage involved. Even when Tiger is 12 shots back on a Saturday or Sunday, we get every one of HIS shots, but nothing of his partners even if that guy is going lights out.

OTOH, the big boys get more help in searching for their balls in the woods and tall grass.

Decision 20-3d/3, end of it

And the answer is "yes".

Thanks for finding that...I had looked under rule 18 decisions, not rule 20.

Slugger White was quoted as saying Tiger's ball moved downward (which explained why he didn't see it move).  Could Tiger make an argument that there would have been no way to move the ball back up to its original position, so he should only have been assessed 1 shot instead of 2?

[mvmac]

I'm just being devil's advocate here...

If you look at the replay/video, yes the ball does move.  But if you look at the very top of the ball, it doesn't look like the ball actually moves up/down or changes position.  It looks like his ball mark moved...  That would be oscillation, correct?

It changed position.  The ball didn't return to it's original position.

[Golfingdad]

I basically agree with you, but how do you replace a ball that has moved downward in the grass?  i.e.  Suppose you are sitting up in bermuda rough and the ball sinks down when you address it.  You call the penalty on yourself and seek to replace the ball to avoid a 2 shot penalty but can't seem to get the ball to stay at the higher elevation on the grass.  What then?

This is what I'm wondering as well. I guess you are supposed to at least try to replace it? In this case, even if tiger saw it move and called the penalty on himself, there is no way he could accurately replace it. It only moved about 1 millimeter. If I go to address my ball in the fairway and accidentally bump it a few inches, I couldn't even replace it closer to its original spot than tigers ball still was to its. I would venture a guess that a rules official would be tempted to have him leave it be because chances are better it ends up further away from its original position than closer when he tried to replace it, in this case. Regardless, I have no problem with the ruling since its pret cut and dried.

[Valleygolfer]

I could not make the call that the ball moved because of the video. I would also have to have video from above to make the call. The stick may have moved but idk. Again the game of golf is kept in check by the players that play to call themselves on these things. Do I think he would have called it on himself. Human nature says no. Do I think it improved his lie, no. So in the grand scheme of things I would say that if the movement was obvious call it but it was not obvious enough to show displacement. I say leave the pros to call these on themselves and seeing how often that happens, there are probably a lot of them that don't do it and are not being videoed by 300 people at once either. I don't like the call in general.

[newtogolf]

You can't be certain from the video if it moved downward or rotated downward.  How would one replace a ball that moved a few millimeters with certainty that it was in the exact location it was before the stick was touched?

[Chris223]

Can we PLEASE clear the air here to the uninformed who think that some fan filmed the video and call it in?  It was a PGA TOUR employed film crew filming not for the television broadcast but for the PGA TOUR's other media relations - who filmed it and sent the footage to PGA Tour... for all we know they didn't even know if the ball moved and they just sent the footage as per there job.  This is not a case of some fan calling up the PGA Tour's 800 number and telling them they saw a violation.  Good grief

[iacas]

I still have no issue at all with viewers calling in.

[Hooterlew]

The question of move, didn't move, resulting penalty, what ever. That is in the rules of golf and at that level must be followed without question. The part that burns my backside worse than a three foot flame is all the outside intervention. That should be stopped. It's not allowed in any other sport and all these goodie two shoes have probably all cheated out right in their matches. The other thing is get off Tiger's back. He is under a microscope In every thing he does. I realize people in sports have to share their private lives to some extent, but enough is enough. In my opinion it is just dragging the sport through the gutter. The PGA and its players have managed to accumulate nearly a Billion dollars in charitable donations to various organizations, mostly for children in AMERICA and Tiger is a major participant in those efforts. Why would anyone want to set on their butt and arm chair the game?

[iacas]

Hooter, or anyone else who is against anyone pointing out penalties, I have but one simple question to ask you:

Why does it matter WHO sees the infraction if an infraction occurs?

Other sports aren't self-officiated. When that fails… then what?