Should Divots Be Considered Ground Under Repair?

[impactswing]

Lift clean place is how 90% if not 99% of Sfl mini tour pro tourneys run, it's the norm on swamp courses.

[iacas]

Lift clean place is how 90% if not 99% of Sfl mini tour pro tourneys run, it's the norm on swamp courses.

I work with several players on Florida mini tours, and know several other instructors who work with many more golfers. They say you're wrong.

And since you're just repeating the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, you've been restricted from this thread. Additionally, you're not even talking about divots anymore.

[Abu3baid]

[QUOTE name="MS256" url="/t/9549/what-do-you-consider-the-most-stupid-rule-in-golf/324#post_1019323"]   [QUOTE name="jusanothajoe" url="/t/9549/what-do-you-consider-the-most-stupid-rule-in-golf/324#post_1019315"]   Name of the thread is What do you consider the most stupid rule in golf. When someone answers should they be chastised for it ? [/QUOTE] That's why I love reading these what is your opinion threads. "I would like to see this rule changed because I don't like it." "You can't do that." "Why not?" "Because that would be against the rules." BTW I'm glad they make people hit out of divots. I'm usually about 100 yards either right or left of all of the divots so it doesn't effect me...and it serves my opponents right for hitting the ball down the middle of the fairway.[/QUOTE] I didn't chastise and I didn't use 256's excuse.  I simply asked him to put forth a workable suggestion.  I doubt that he can, because if he knew enough about the rules to be able to write a practical rule, he would also know that divot holes are not ground under repair.  Ground under repair is addressed in Rule 25 under Abnormal Ground, and divot holes on a golf course are about as normal a feature as you can find.  They are just one of the many forms of adversity one encounters in golf, and the player is expected to deal with adversity as a normal part of playing the game.

I have a suggestion..if it lands in a divot on a fairway (old, new) then he has to confirm with partner that it is a divot and then proceed to take a drop 2 club lengths no closer to the hole.. This only works if you are in the fairway! In the PGA they have to call over one of the rules guys what ever they are called to verify.. There I didn't think that was that hard.. What's the problem? No, I won't make exceptions for other things either.. Anyway, my whole post is OT as we should only talk about what we hate and not what and how the rules should change!

[iacas]

I have a suggestion..if it lands in a divot on a fairway (old, new) then he has to confirm with partner that it is a divot and then proceed to take a drop 2 club lengths no closer to the hole.. This only works if you are in the fairway!

Define a divot (hole) please in such a way that everyone will, within very small tolerances, have exactly the same understanding of what a divot hole is and when one ceases to be one.

We can't keep having this discussion, guys…

[Golfingdad]

Define a divot (hole) please in such a way that everyone will, within very small tolerances, have exactly the same understanding of what a divot hole is and when one ceases to be one.

We can't keep having this discussion, guys…

Divot Hole (per Drew):  An ovally, squarish, rectangle of dirt surrounded by grass, ranging between 0.25" and 1" deep, 2" to 2.4" wide, and 2" to 5" long.

[Abu3baid]

[QUOTE name="Abu3baid" url="/t/9549/what-do-you-consider-the-most-stupid-rule-in-golf/342#post_1019366"] I have a suggestion..if it lands in a divot on a fairway (old, new) then he has to confirm with partner that it is a divot and then proceed to take a drop 2 club lengths no closer to the hole.. This only works if you are in the fairway![/QUOTE] Define a divot (hole) please in such a way that everyone will, within very small tolerances, have exactly the same understanding of what a divot hole is and when one ceases to be one. We can't keep having this discussion, guys… :-)

All players eventually get to know what a divot is, once you see one you know that it is or was a divot.. If you are looking for a defenitions then "any hole, stripped piece of earth or anything resembling the entrance and or exit out of the earth caused by a club".. The important provision included in my suggestion is that it has to be verifyed with rules official or partner when playing a casual round. If the partner wants to be a ***k and says no it is not a divot then find a new partner.. p.s. This is my first entrance into this discussion, and I can imagine others after me will also entertain this question.. I mentioned it was off topic for the thread because it is about things that people hate, and obviously this keeps coming up... I was only answering because there are alternatives, just like when the PGA or other courses apply the LCP rules because of rain or other reasons.. We aren't really setting precedents here... People want preferred lies when thy hit a ball into a fairway... I don't think that is too much to ask for! Sigh... Stupid topic I should have never entertained it... Just can't help it sometimes :)

[iacas]

All players eventually get to know what a divot is, once you see one you know that it is or was a divot.. If you are looking for a defenitions then "any hole, stripped piece of earth or anything resembling the entrance and or exit out of the earth caused by a club".

When has it grown in enough that it ceases to be a divot? What if it's only partially stripped?

The important provision included in my suggestion is that it has to be verifyed with rules official or partner when playing a casual round. If the partner wants to be a ***k and says no it is not a divot then find a new partner..

That's ridiculous and not a way to play golf, forcing players to call in rules officials all the time, or pester their playing partners all the time, to determine whether the spot they're in is still (or ever was) a divot hole.

People want preferred lies when thy hit a ball into a fairway... I don't think that is too much to ask for!

Tough beans. Sometimes your ball hits a tree and kicks into the fairway, and sometimes you hit the ball in the fairway and it finds a divot hole.

---

And I'll say again… we really can't keep having this conversation about divot holes. You wanna talk about it more, go here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/ .

[Patch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS256

Quote:

Originally Posted by jusanothajoe

Name of the thread is What do you consider the most stupid rule in golf. When someone answers should they be chastised for it ?

That's why I love reading these what is your opinion threads.

"I would like to see this rule changed because I don't like it."

"You can't do that."

"Why not?"

"Because that would be against the rules."

BTW I'm glad they make people hit out of divots. I'm usually about 100 yards either right or left of all of the divots so it doesn't effect me...and it serves my opponents right for hitting the ball down the middle of the fairway.

I didn't chastise and I didn't use 256's excuse.  I simply asked him to put forth a workable suggestion.  I doubt that he can, because if he knew enough about the rules to be able to write a practical rule, he would also know that divot holes are not ground under repair.  Ground under repair is addressed in Rule 25 under Abnormal Ground, and divot holes on a golf course are about as normal a feature as you can find.  They are just one of the many forms of adversity one encounters in golf, and the player is expected to deal with adversity as a normal part of playing the game.

4Putt is correct about divots not considered GUR. This is why I practice hitting out of divots from time to time. So I will have a reasonable expectation of the ball flight of a ball I hit  that's located in the front, middle, or back of a filled, or unfilled divot.  I still believe it's a dumb rule to make a player play out of another player's left over damage, but rules are rules, and we play by them.   A simple rule change might be to allow the golfer to remove their ball from a divot and play it with in one club length of the divot, but not nearer the hole. How about a local course rule that says you don't have to play out of a divot in the fairway because the course manager agrees divots are GUR?  I've seen it done.  Hitting out of a divot "can" effect ball flight. So, with that in mind, why are we sometimes allowed to lift, and clean if the ball has mud on it, which will effect normal ball flight?  Casual water? Rule 13-1 say we play the ball as it lies, except as otherwise provided in the rules. There's an opening for not having to ply out of divots right there. Then there's 13.2 that basically says must not improve the lie of the ball, which of course also includes stance area, line of play, and the golfer's swing. If we can get around rule 13.2 because of mud, then we should be able get around 13.1 with regards to divots with the "otherwise provided in the rules" verbiage. Rules are changed all the time. Me, I think to help bring more folks back to the game, there should be two sets of rules. One for sanctioned tournaments, and a set for the out for fun, amature.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patch

4Putt is correct about divots not considered GUR. This is why I practice hitting out of divots from time to time. So I will have a reasonable expectation of the ball flight of a ball I hit  that's located in the front, middle, or back of a filled, or unfilled divot.  I still believe it's a dumb rule to make a player play out of another player's left over damage, but rules are rules, and we play by them.   A simple rule change might be to allow the golfer to remove their ball from a divot and play it with in one club length of the divot, but not nearer the hole. How about a local course rule that says you don't have to play out of a divot in the fairway because the course manager agrees divots are GUR? I've seen it done.  Hitting out of a divot "can" effect ball flight. .......

....Casual water? Rule 13-1 say we play the ball as it lies, except as otherwise provided in the rules. There's an opening for not having to ply out of divots right there. Then there's 13.2 that basically says must not improve the lie of the ball, which of course also includes stance area, line of play, and the golfer's swing. If we can get around rule 13.2 because of mud, then we should be able get around 13.1 with regards to divots with the "otherwise provided in the rules" verbiage. Rules are changed all the time. Me, I think to help bring more folks back to the game, there should be two sets of rules. One for sanctioned tournaments, and a set for the out for fun, amature.

Nobody ever wants to see it but Decision 33-8/34 specifically prohibits this.  It's unlikely that they would reverse themselves on this one.  That phrase you quote "otherwise provided in the rules" is not a catch all for changing the rules based on whimsy.  The occasions where such verbiage is used are in the rules because they address situations where it would be unreasonable for play to continue without that provision.  Divot holes is not one of those cases.  It's perfectly possible and reasonable to expect players to play from a divot hole once or twice in each 100 or so rounds.

Quote:

33-8/34

Relief from Divot Holes

Q. May a Committee make a Local Rule providing relief without penalty from divot holes or repaired divot holes (e.g., holes that have been filled with sand and/or seed mix)?

A. No. Such a Local Rule would modify Rule 13-1 and is not authorized.

Quote:

So, with that in mind, why are we sometimes allowed to lift, and clean if the ball has mud on it, which will effect normal ball flight?

We aren't.  The only time that is allowed is when the Preferred Lies local rule is in effect, addressing specific playability issues due to unusually wet conditions.  There is no local rule that allows lifting and cleaning just for mud.  Even the pros have to sometimes buck up and play a muddy ball.

[vangator]

I didn't chastise and I didn't use 256's excuse.  I simply asked him to put forth a workable suggestion.  I doubt that he can, because if he knew enough about the rules to be able to write a practical rule, he would also know that divot holes are not ground under repair.  Ground under repair is addressed in Rule 25 under Abnormal Ground, and divot holes on a golf course are about as normal a feature as you can find.  They are just one of the many forms of adversity one encounters in golf, and the player is expected to deal with adversity as a normal part of playing the game.

Hello? McFly. I have a workable suggestion. Let' call it Ground Under Repair. That seems to cover it. That's been around awhile.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vangator

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I didn't chastise and I didn't use 256's excuse.  I simply asked him to put forth a workable suggestion.  I doubt that he can, because if he knew enough about the rules to be able to write a practical rule, he would also know that divot holes are not ground under repair.  Ground under repair is addressed in Rule 25 under Abnormal Ground, and divot holes on a golf course are about as normal a feature as you can find.  They are just one of the many forms of adversity one encounters in golf, and the player is expected to deal with adversity as a normal part of playing the game.

Hello? McFly.

I have a workable suggestion. Let' call it Ground Under Repair. That seems to cover it. That's been around awhile.

Try to understand what I'm actually saying rather than what you want to see.  Ground under Repair is a designated portion of the course which contains abnormal conditions, meaning that it is something not normal to the golf course.  Divot holes are always normal to a golf course.  Therefore they do not meet the qualification for designation as ground under repair.

Quote:

Ground Under Repair

“ Ground under repair ” is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative. All ground and any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing within the ground under repair are part of the ground under repair . Ground under repair includes material piled for removal and a hole made by a greenkeeper, even if not so marked. Grass cuttings and other material left on the course that have been abandoned and are not intended to be removed are not ground under repair unless so marked.

If you want to get your committee to go around the course every day and mark every divot that they feel should be ground under repair, be my guest, but that is the only way you are going to make it equitable.  And if they do so, they are creating an unauthorized Local Rule in direct conflict with the ruling bodies, because those bodies are adamant that divot holes do NOT qualify for such designation.

And can the attempt at personal attacks, Biff.  At least McFly was a likable character.  Biff was a jackass.

[David in FL]

If you want to get your committee to go around the course every day and mark every divot that they feel should be ground under repair, be my guest, but that is the only way you are going to make it equitable. And if they do so, they are creating an unauthorized Local Rule in direct conflict with the ruling bodies, because those bodies are adamant that divot holes do NOT qualify for such designation.

And that still wouldn't cover the divots caused by the groups ahead of you..... ;-)

[14ledo81]

1) When is a divot (hole) a divot (hole)? (Like @iacas said before "what if it is only partially stripped?) 2) When has the divot (hole) healed enough to no longer be called a divot (hole)? The answer to both of these questions is way to subjective to be a part of a unified rules system.

[Golfingdad]

1) When is a divot (hole) a divot (hole)? (Like @iacas said before "what if it is only partially stripped?)

2) When has the divot (hole) healed enough to no longer be called a divot (hole)?

The answer to both of these questions is way to subjective to be a part of a unified rules system.

I feel like you guys are just being difficult for the sake of being difficult.  I think that it's probably to fair to say that the people who think it's "no fair" to have to hit out of a divot hole (I AM NOT ONE OF THESE PEOPLE) really mean, "it's no fair to have to hit from something other than a perfect lie after hitting a good shot.  The solution for these people would just be LCP.

Another solution would simply be "when in doubt, assume it's a divot hole."

Again, I'm not one of those people - I like the challenge of hitting it where it lies, no matter - but I really don't think the implementation would be that difficult at all.

My 2 cents.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

1) When is a divot (hole) a divot (hole)? (Like @iacas said before "what if it is only partially stripped?)

2) When has the divot (hole) healed enough to no longer be called a divot (hole)?

The answer to both of these questions is way to subjective to be a part of a unified rules system.

I feel like you guys are just being difficult for the sake of being difficult.  I think that it's probably to fair to say that the people who think it's "no fair" to have to hit out of a divot hole (I AM NOT ONE OF THESE PEOPLE) really mean, "it's no fair to have to hit from something other than a perfect lie after hitting a good shot.  The solution for these people would just be LCP.

Another solution would simply be "when in doubt, assume it's a divot hole."

Again, I'm not one of those people - I like the challenge of hitting it where it lies, no matter - but I really don't think the implementation would be that difficult at all.

My 2 cents.

When it comes down to it, I don't really care what they do if I'm not in competition with them.  All I tried to do is explain the reason behind the rule and why it isn't going to change.  In spite of that, if they still don't like it, not much I can do about it but shrug my shoulders.

Nobody likes having to play from a divot hole, but it's part of the game.  I don't like taking a penalty stroke when I hit into a water hazard, or pretty much any other penalty, but those are just some of the things we deal with.

Nothing in the rules guarantees a perfect lie anywhere on the golf course, except maybe on the putting green.  Even then, the rules don't guarantee it, but they will allow just about everything possible to give the player the best lie available.  In certain cases he still may not have a clear line to the hole.

[Golfingdad]

When it comes down to it, I don't really care what they do if I'm not in competition with them.  All I tried to do is explain the reason behind the rule and why it isn't going to change.  In spite of that, if they still don't like it, not much I can do about it but shrug my shoulders.

Nobody likes having to play from a divot hole, but it's part of the game.  I don't like taking a penalty stroke when I hit into a water hazard, or pretty much any other penalty, but those are just some of the things we deal with.

Nothing in the rules guarantees a perfect lie anywhere on the golf course, except maybe on the putting green.  Even then, the rules don't guarantee it, but they will allow just about everything possible to give the player the best lie available.  In certain cases he still may not have a clear line to the hole.

Whoops.  FWIW, I thought I was posting in the "What rule would you like to change" thread.  I think the "no divot" guys deserve a little leeway in that thread, but this one is different.  My bad.

[MS256]

Whoops.  FWIW, I thought I was posting in the "What rule would you like to change" thread.  I think the "no divot" guys deserve a little leeway in that thread, but this one is different.  My bad.

Why? They are both asking for an opinion and people are entitled to have any opinion they want (even stupid ones).

[Abu3baid]

So, the discussion is still about divots I see.. How come I'm the only one that is told that his is basically off topic in this thread? Hmmm. Ohhhhh admin!!! By the way I second @Golfingdad opinion.. When in doubt it is a divot... Pretty simple! Thanks