Tiger Woods Master Catch-All Discussion

[Patch]

Back spasms can be caused by many different things. Perhaps his diet has been wrong for few days. Not getting enough rest, or over exertion of muscles, tendons, or ligaments can be a factor. Perhaps he has reinjured something. No one knows for sure except his own inner circle. 

My wife made a casual reference yesterday that he didn't look healthy, or that he was tired. She said his eyes just didn't look right. They were not clear. She said they looked like mine after a late night of being out with friends, with a few too many drinks under my belt. 

Perhaps there was a contractual situation that required him to go all the way to Dubai. An appearance fee maybe? The travel could be the culprit. 

He looked good at the Hero contest I have heard some folks say. Maybe he tweaked something while playing there that has had a negative effect on his last two outings. Something that didn't show up until after the tournament was over. 

My personal hope is that his back is just not in tournament shape as yet, and he needs more time in the trenches. 

[skydog]

52 minutes ago, k-troop said:

 I believe little of what Tiger and Steiny put out publicly, because their press releases have always been very shaped and/or parsed.

One of the reasons I was never a Tiger fan in his prime and am now having a hard time rooting his comeback. I want to see the guy get healthy but the gamesmanship (euphemism)/deceit of their communications wears on me. They may think they have a brand to 'protect' or whatever, but brands are built on integrity, not on constantly misinforming your fans.

Edited February 3, 2017 by skydog

[Phil McGleno]

5 minutes ago, skydog said:

One of the reasons I was never a Tiger fan in his prime and am now having a hard time rooting his comeback. I want to see the guy get healthy but the gamesmanship (euphemism)/deceit of their communications wears on me. They may think they have a brand to 'protect' or whatever, but brands are built on integrity, not on constantly misinforming your fans.

When-In his prime 1997-2008-Did Tiger or Steinberg lie about his golf or golf-related stuff?

[k-troop]

10 minutes ago, skydog said:

One of the reasons I was never a Tiger fan in his prime and am now having a hard time rooting his comeback. I want to see the guy get healthy but the gamesmanship (euphemism)/deceit of their communications wears on me.

That's your right, but I don't see how Tiger's communications strategy should undermine his greatness.  He's under no obligation to bare his soul to the world at every event.  He always had a significant interest in maintaining his aura of invincibility, for the sake of his business interests and the intimidation factor he held on the course. 

Doesn't make much sense for him to come out (as an example before the 2008 Open) and say "I'm excited about the event, but my right leg is broken right now, so we'll see how I do.  Oh yeah, it hurts like hell.  I'm on so much vicodin I could barely see the ball on the range."

I think it's a lot cooler that he played with a broken leg, acted like everything was cool, won the freaking tournament on the 91st hole, and then we found out his leg was broken.  (But that also means I don't really believe anything Steinberg says.)

4 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

When-In his prime 1997-2008-Did Tiger or Steinberg lie about his golf or golf-related stuff?

He never was 100% (or even 50%) forthright about his injuries.  Still isn't.

[skydog]

1 minute ago, Phil McGleno said:

When-In his prime 1997-2008-Did Tiger or Steinberg lie about his golf or golf-related stuff?

I should have differentiated better than I did in my post. In recent years the lies about his health from him and his team have worn on me. In his prime it was gamesmanship and shortness with the media that I didn't care for....two different things that I conflated.

[Phil McGleno]

1 minute ago, k-troop said:

He never was 100% (or even 50%) forthcoming about his injuries.  Still isn't.

WHat injuries 1997-2008? @skydog said he was never a fan because of the deceit.

Very few in those years yet I think it is revisionist history to say you never liked him because he lied about his injuries.

He had two operations on his knee-One in college- and then the torn ACL/stress fractures in 2008.

[skydog]

3 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

WHat injuries 1997-2008? @skydog said he was never a fan because of the deceit.

He was never open with the media about his game or his health during his prime. His fans called it gamesmanship but it's just the way he was. Some people liked it, you're welcome to. It just never rubbed me the right way. 08' Torrey comes to mind...no one knew the extent of his injuries until after the event.

Edited February 3, 2017 by skydog

[k-troop]

4 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

WHat injuries 1997-2008? @skydog said he was never a fan because of the deceit.

Quote

On April 15, 2008, Tiger Woods had arthroscopic surgery on his left knee.^[12] During his rehab, Woods sustained a double stress fracture of his left tibia. Throughout the tournament it was clear Woods was in pain, and the general feeling was that he was just returning from the initial surgery too soon. He did not reveal the news about the double stress fracture until two days after the U.S. Open was complete. He had surgery to repair his anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) and needed time to rehab that and the stress fracture. He announced on his website that he would miss the remainder of the 2008 golf season, which meant he would miss the final two majors: the British Open and the PGA Championship.^[13]

Just as an example.

[skydog]

12 minutes ago, k-troop said:

That's your right, but I don't see how Tiger's communications strategy should undermine his greatness.  He's under no obligation to bare his soul to the world at every event.  He always had a significant interest in maintaining his aura of invincibility, for the sake of his business interests and the intimidation factor he held on the course. 

I never said it has diminished his greatness. Like I said, plenty of people liked it and the aura of invincibility that resulted from it. Just saying that I don't like getting lied to and at least in recent years, that's all his camp seems to do about his health.

Edited February 3, 2017 by skydog

[Phil McGleno]

5 minutes ago, skydog said:

He was never open with the media about his game or his health during his prime. His fans called it gamesmanship but it's just the way he was. Some people liked it, you're welcome to. It just never rubbed me the right way. 08' Torrey comes to mind...no one knew the extent of his injuries until after the event.

Please-The injury was WORSE than he let on but it rubs you the wrong way? You have never liked Tiger and the issues probably do not actually have anything to do with his deceit in your words. Players are almost never totally honest about their injuries-Not in golf or any other sport. Guess you do not like everyone. Or is it just an excuse for you to not like Tiger? That is closer to home I think.

4 minutes ago, k-troop said:

Just as an example.

That is outside the window really-and he did say what the problem was after winning the US Open and playing 91 holes on that leg.

How people fault Tiger for what he did in 2008 at Torrey is beyond me.

[skydog]

11 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

 

Very few in those years yet I think it is revisionist history to say you never liked him because he lied about his injuries.

Speaking of revisionist history Phil, I never said that. I said lying about his injuries in recent years has made it harder for me to root for his comeback.

[k-troop]

8 minutes ago, skydog said:

I never said it has diminished his greatness. Like I said, plenty of people liked it and the aura of invincibility that resulted from it. Just saying that I don't like getting lied to and at least in recent years, that's all his camp seems to do about his health.

Fair enough.  At this point I agree there is less (or no) utility in him being anything but 100% honest with himself and those around him about his health.  Just a few reasons off the top of my head:

1. He needs to accept his diagnosis, prognosis, limitations, and treatment if he has any prayer of becoming a professional athlete again.

2. He must be 100% open about his prognosis when discussing new endorsement contracts, lest he be susceptible to fraud allegations.

3. He totally screwed over Steve Williams (who later blew any net Karma he gained from that, and then some) in 2010-11 by not being honest about his comeback timeline (and not compensating him for sitting out nearly two seasons).  He definitely should NOT do that again.

None of that means he necessarily needs to be honest with us, but the time for downplaying his injuries is behind him.

Edit:  and I have no reason to think he's delinquent on items #1-3 above, but IMO his track record WRT his injuries borders between delusion and deceit.

Edited February 3, 2017 by k-troop
Made a critical omission

[Phil McGleno]

1 minute ago, skydog said:

Speaking of revisionist history Phil, I never said that. I said lying about his injuries in recent years has made it harder for me to root for his comeback.

You also said you conflated the two issues.

[DaveP043]

Would it be fair to suggest that the last dozen or so posts, about the history and accuracy of the public comments by Tiger and his management concerning his health, are a bit ?

[Phil McGleno]

Just now, k-troop said:

1. He needs to accept his diagnosis, prognosis, limitations, and treatment if he has any prayer of becoming a professional athlete again.

He took 17 months off.-He seems to have followed their orders.

Just now, k-troop said:

2. He must be 100% open about his prognosis when discussing new endorsement contracts, lest he be susceptible to fraud allegations.

That is between him and the companies.-Does not matter to you one bit.

Just now, k-troop said:

3. He totally screwed over Steve Williams (who later blew any net Karma he gained from that, and then some) in 2010-11 by not being honest about his comeback timeline (and not compensating him for sitting out nearly two seasons).  He definitely should NOT do that again.

So you are pissed on behalf of one of the Tour's most asshole bag carriers?-A jerk who was paid handsomely for carrying a bag around?

Sounds like you are trying to justify your dislike of Tiger too.-By being upset on behalf of TaylorMade or companies you do not know anything about and a huge jerk who was paid well?

Just now, k-troop said:

None of that means he necessarily needs to be honest with us, but the time for downplaying his injuries is behind him.

Why?-What is it to you?

I would prefer that he be honest but who cares what he does or does not SAY. What matters is what he does or does not DO.

Find an athlete that has never lied about an injury and I will show you a miracle - an athlete that has never been injured. Athletes-Especially those at the top of the game - lie about injuries all the time.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Would it be fair to suggest that the last dozen or so posts, about the history and accuracy of the public comments by Tiger and his management concerning his health, are a bit ?

Yep. Moved.

[k-troop]

Just now, DaveP043 said:

Would it be fair to suggest that the last dozen or so posts, about the history and accuracy of the public comments by Tiger and his management concerning his health, are a bit ?

Obviously not, because I'm making them.  (No, I think it's fairly relevant.  His chances this season are directly related to his health.  His agent is trying to say his recent issues are not carryover from his past issues, but there's good reason to be skeptical.  And this is the most interesting thing to happen in golf since Tiger rinsed three shots from 80 yards last fall. 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, k-troop said:

His agent is trying to say his recent issues are not carryover from his past issues

No, Mark Steinberg said they're different than his previous issues (nerve pain != spasms). He directly spoke to the surgeries, etc.

7 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

Find an athlete that has never lied about an injury and I will show you a miracle - an athlete that has never been injured. Athletes-Especially those at the top of the game - lie about injuries all the time.

True dat. If you're blaming Tiger for not being forthcoming with his injuries, you'd be hard-pressed to find a top golfer you can like let alone an athlete in another sport.

Hell, I'd have to have broken my ankle to come out of a soccer game my freshman year, and I was hardly a star athlete at the top of the world ranks.