Tiger Woods Master Catch-All Discussion

[Vespidae]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Based on a ton. Lots of topics about this here. Tiger was physically better than everyone else. He had shots nobody else could hit. It wasn’t just a mental thing that separated him.

Foley taught a broken (injured) golfer.

I'm actually more interested in why you think Hal is full of shit. 

As to Tiger, ok ... injured. Fine. He didn't hit a bus head on did he? He got there on based on how he wanted to get there ... and the consequences. 

[iacas]

54 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

I'm actually more interested in why you think Hal is full of shit.

I'm confused. I thought this was pretty clear.

This statement is complete bullshit (by Hal): "He made the point that above a certain skill level, it’s all mental."

We have several topics and discussions about this stuff (the "mental game" aspect of golf).

54 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

As to Tiger, ok ... injured. Fine. He didn't hit a bus head on did he?

No, but so what? Does that mean his back wasn't bad, his knee wasn't bad…?

[Vespidae]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

This statement is complete bullshit (by Hal): "

He made the point that above a certain skill level, it’s all mental."

Great. No back up. Just an opinion. So a PGA Champion and Players Champion is full of it. So much for Hal's new venture teaching ... 

Hal BEAT Tiger in the Players Championship. Hal's point was that yes, there's equipment, yes there's skill, but once you have that ... it's mental. Peter Jacobsen said it (and introduced us to Chuck Hogan), Bob Rotella said it ... and so have countless others. 

I'm arguing that perhaps Tiger would not have hurt himself had he had a strong corner man. He had it with Earl. Who's filling that role today? I honestly don't know ... do you?

So back to Sean ... if you aren't going to coach him on skill (he's already good), perhaps there's an opportunity to coach on what he's thinking. Who knows?

If Sean was so concerned, he probably should have just said, "Tiger, I can't help. You are too injured." But he didn't ... so I don't really feel sorry for Sean. 

 

[billchao]

3 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

I'm arguing that perhaps Tiger would not have hurt himself had he had a strong corner man. He had it with Earl.

This makes no sense. He had a strong corner man in Earl and that’s why his body was not as broken? Tiger’s injuries are a culmination of years of wear and strain on his body. What does that have to do with his mental fortitude?

[Vespidae]

1 minute ago, billchao said:

This makes no sense. He had a strong corner man in Earl and that’s why his body was not as broken? Tiger’s injuries are a culmination of years of wear and strain on his body. What does that have to do with his mental fortitude?

Then you need to ask why. Why is his body broken? Why does he have the strain and the wear? He didn't fall down a flight of stairs. He didn't get hit head by a bus. He  chose to swing the way he did and yes ... a strong corner man would have said, "Whoa ... do you really want to do that to your body the way you are doing it?" 

I think Bryson is headed for the same outcome ... a meteor that flashes at great speed before he crashes. 

If Sean is not asking these questions ... boo hoo for Sean. He could have said "No thanks."

[woodzie264]

12 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

Then you need to ask why. Why is his body broken? Why does he have the strain and the wear? He didn't fall down a flight of stairs. He didn't get hit head by a bus. He  chose to swing the way he did and yes ... a strong corner man would have said, "Whoa ... do you really want to do that to your body the way you are doing it?”

I agree with @billchao; being in orthopedics, I see people with arthritis, tendinopathies, etc everyday that are an accumulation of years of work/activities. And we see this argument presented in court all the time with car accidents and workman’s comp cases; if there is no abrupt injury (“falling down a flight a stairs” as you put it), the degenerative type of injuries are presumed to be just that, a degeneration over long periods of time unless one can prove otherwise. So, the burden of proof lies with you saying his injuries weren’t due to all of those years under Earl. It’s simply wearing down tread on the tires and while he was younger under his dad, there was still more tread on his tires 

[billchao]

11 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

Then you need to ask why. Why is his body broken? Why does he have the strain and the wear? He didn't fall down a flight of stairs. He didn't get hit head by a bus. He  chose to swing the way he did and yes ... a strong corner man would have said, "Whoa ... do you really want to do that to your body the way you are doing it?" 

I think Bryson is headed for the same outcome ... a meteor that flashes at great speed before he crashes. 

If Sean is not asking these questions ... boo hoo for Sean. He could have said "No thanks."

Then your Earl argument is moot, because it was under Earl’s watch that Tiger developed his swing.

[woodzie264]

2 minutes ago, billchao said:

Then your Earl argument is moot, because it was under Earl’s watch that Tiger developed his swing.

Precisely 

[Double Mocha Man]

4 minutes ago, billchao said:

Then your Earl argument is moot, because it was under Earl’s watch that Tiger developed his swing.

I don't think Earl was, in those days, thinking about Tiger's longevity.

[Vespidae]

8 minutes ago, billchao said:

Then your Earl argument is moot, because it was under Earl’s watch that Tiger developed his swing.

Actually not. Tiger really went after David Duval when Duval was number one in 1999. Look at what he was doing with his swing then ... on steel spikes. I'll bet money that was the period that started the wear and tear on his body. 

But look at Post 3486. These aren't my words, they are Sean Foley's ... "

“Looking back on it now, I think I probably over-coached him. I was there at a time when he needed someone to support him.

    It was a time in his life when a lot of people who’d been in his life for a long time started to ditch him. I think, unfortunately, I approached it from the point of view that good technique will take care of everything."

That IS my point. All these people that supported him mentally begin to move on, by death, by  divorce ... whatever. And Sean's focus was on technique. Sounds to me like Sean is saying, "I made a mistake." And I agree. 

 

[billchao]

5 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

Actually not. Tiger really went after David Duval when Duval was number one in 1999. Look at what he was doing with his swing then ... on steel spikes. I'll bet money that was the period that started the wear and tear on his body. 

Earl died in 2006. He was still around in Tiger’s life in 1999, so by your own argument, Earl should have been a stronger corner man and stepped in.

32 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

a strong corner man would have said, "Whoa ... do you really want to do that to your body the way you are doing it?" 

So again, your Earl argument is moot. Earl watched Tiger “ruin” his body, or whatever it is you’re insinuating.

[woodzie264]

13 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

“Looking back on it now, I think I probably over-coached him. I was there at a time when he needed someone to support him.

    It was a time in his life when a lot of people who’d been in his life for a long time started to ditch him. I think, unfortunately, I approached it from the point of view that good technique will take care of everything."

That IS my point. All these people that supported him mentally begin to move on, by death, by  divorce ... whatever. And Sean's focus was on technique. Sounds to me like Sean is saying, "I made a mistake." And I agree. 

 

I get what you’re saying here, and I think we would all agree that mental health after bereavement or depression is going to be primary to getting out there and competing at a high level, but that’s very different from simply handling the stress of higher level competitive golf. If I am understanding @iacas point correctly (and correct me if I wrong), Erik was saying that trying to coach someone to be mentally tough for that stress of competition would have been less than productive than working on mechanics. I see those as two separate mental areas, not apples to apples

[boogielicious]

23 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

Actually not. Tiger really went after David Duval when Duval was number one in 1999. Look at what he was doing with his swing then ... on steel spikes. I'll bet money that was the period that started the wear and tear on his body. 

But look at Post 3486. These aren't my words, they are Sean Foley's ... "

“Looking back on it now, I think I probably over-coached him. I was there at a time when he needed someone to support him.

    It was a time in his life when a lot of people who’d been in his life for a long time started to ditch him. I think, unfortunately, I approached it from the point of view that good technique will take care of everything."

That IS my point. All these people that supported him mentally begin to move on, by death, by  divorce ... whatever. And Sean's focus was on technique. Sounds to me like Sean is saying, "I made a mistake." And I agree. 

 

From what I understand, Tiger changed coaches because his swing was causing injury. He needed to find a way to stay on top and not continue to degrade his body. The mental game part was a much smaller component. He’s had many surgeries and injuries. He won a US Open with a broken leg for goodness sake.

Even now with his back fusion, he still is a force to be reckoned with. A lot of top level golfers have gone through the same thing from a physical standpoint. Tiger does not need mental coaching. He continues to look for ways to keep. That is what I read in Foley’s comments.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

Great. No back up. Just an opinion.

No, please read what I write.

We have a bunch of topics on this, where I've shared a BUNCH of opinions and facts about the mental game versus the physical game, etc. I told you this, that this was discussed in other topics. You're too lazy to go look for them, then flag me as "no back up." I've backed it up repeatedly. Many times. I don't feel like typing it all out again, since it's really not the topic here.

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

So a PGA Champion and Players Champion is full of it.

It'd hardly be the first time, dude.

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

Hal BEAT Tiger in the Players Championship.

So?

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

Hal's point was that yes, there's equipment, yes there's skill, but once you have that ... it's mental.

And again, he's full of shit.

It's not mental. Tiger was not "mentally" 15 shots better than anyone else in the f***ing field in 2000. He was physically way better.

My disagreement here is not because I misunderstand what you or what Hal is saying. It's because I disagree with him entirely.

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

Peter Jacobsen said it (and introduced us to Chuck Hogan), Bob Rotella said it ... and so have countless others.

Doesn't make 'em right. Tiger could do things, physically, that others could not do. I could give you "countless" tales of that type of thing, too.

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

I'm arguing that perhaps Tiger would not have hurt himself had he had a strong corner man. He had it with Earl. Who's filling that role today? I honestly don't know ... do you?

You're arguing that perhaps something? Good luck with that.

I may as well argue that "perhaps" Tiger would have won half as much if he adopted whatever your strategy would have been.

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

So back to Sean ... if you aren't going to coach him on skill (he's already good)

I don't think you understand how coaching works at that level.

He was "already good" in 1997 when he won the Masters by 12. Yet he kept with Butch. He was "already good" when he wanted to be even more consistent, and switched to Hank Haney, and played some of the most consistently great golf ever played. He was "already good" when he went with Sean Foley, "already good" when he switched to Chris Como, and "already good" when he went out mostly on his own.

Yet, at each turn, he wanted something different from his golf swing. Hence, he worked with a coach.

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

If Sean was so concerned, he probably should have just said, "Tiger, I can't help. You are too injured." But he didn't ... so I don't really feel sorry for Sean. 

Nobody's asking you to feel sorry for Sean.

I was just stating the reality: Sean was dealing with a broken golfer.

1 hour ago, billchao said:

This makes no sense. He had a strong corner man in Earl and that’s why his body was not as broken? Tiger’s injuries are a culmination of years of wear and strain on his body. What does that have to do with his mental fortitude?

Yeah, this. I ignored your "better corner man" thing because others pretty well addressed it.

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

Then you need to ask why. Why is his body broken? Why does he have the strain and the wear?

Because golf at that level beats the ever-loving-shit out of you?

Because other golfers who aren't as good as Tiger are forced to retire with his injuries in their 30s?

What are you even talking about here?

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

He didn't get hit head by a bus.

He played high level golf for like 30 years, dude. He may as well have been hit by a bus. He'd have had a better chance of recovering more fully from that and losing less time to injury from that than what he had to deal with.

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

He  chose to swing the way he did and yes ... a strong corner man would have said, "Whoa ... do you really want to do that to your body the way you are doing it?"

And that corner man, had he been really convincing, may have cut Tiger's win total in half.

1 hour ago, Vespidae said:

If Sean is not asking these questions ... boo hoo for Sean. He could have said "No thanks."

You're really misreading what people are saying here, man.

49 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

Actually not. Tiger really went after David Duval when Duval was number one in 1999. Look at what he was doing with his swing then ... on steel spikes. I'll bet money that was the period that started the wear and tear on his body. 

Tiger started putting wear and tear on his body when he was five years old.

[Vespidae]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

No, please read what I write.

I was really interested in your opinion as to why Hal Sutton is full of shit. If there's a thread on that ... I'd love to read it. I can't find it ... can you send me the link?

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

I was really interested in your opinion as to why Hal Sutton is full of shit. If there's a thread on that ... I'd love to read it. I can't find it ... can you send me the link?

https://thesandtrap.com/search/

[Vespidae]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

https://thesandtrap.com/search/

Thanks. I did a search on Hal Sutton and scanned all the articles. I can’t find anything really negative on him. What leads you to have such a low opinion of him? Seems like a pretty good golfer.

[Darkfrog]

9 minutes ago, Vespidae said:

I did a search on Hal Sutton and scanned all the articles. I can’t find anything really negative on him. What leads you to have such a low opinion of him? Seems like a pretty good golfer.

I don't think it's Hal Sutton specifically, but rather the importance (or lack of importance) of the mental game.