Evolution of High Launch and Low Spin

[MrFlipper]

I attended a TaylorMade event for their new driver earlier in the week and wanted to share some interesting slides from the presentation. I'm not starting this thread to promote their new clubs but to highlight how launch conditions have changed and how it can benefit your game.

Some of you may be familiar with the term "high launch and low spin", it basically refers to the "key" to hitting your driver further. You get the ball up in the air with a certain amount of spin to maximize carry distance as well as "roll out" distance once the ball lands. Typically, launching it high meant 12-14 degrees and low spin was around 2500rpm. I think there is a huge misconception out there that pros hit the ball low with their drivers, that might have been the case 20-30 years ago but it's a much different story now. Go any professional event and I think you'd be surprised at how high they launch their tee shots.

Interesting look at how launch and spin has changed over the past 23 years. Obviously the ball has played a huge role. Older balata balls spun a lot so you had to launch the ball lower to maximize distance. Then with the introduction of solid core, multi-layered balls, players were able to launch it higher since the ball spun less.

TaylorMade is now talking about the "Holy Grail" of 17 degrees launch at 1700rpm. I think I first heard these numbers about a year ago.

Does this mean you have to go out and buy the latest TaylorMade driver? Not necessarily, they certainly feel that the low and forward CoG helps but basically all drivers are built for "high launch and low spin" playability. Point is don't be afraid to go out and try an 11 or 12 degree driver. JB Holmes was the second player this year to win with a 12 degree driver.

The ability to hit your driver with a positive angle of attack will also reduce spin and launch it higher.

Here's why all this matters. Two players, Justin Rose and Michael Bradley, ball speed is the same yet Rose hits it 27.5 yards further. Why? Because Rose launches it higher with less spin. Taylor vs Watney is eye opening as well, they hit it the same distance but Watney's ball speed is 14 mph faster.

Few graphs on how everyone, 175mph ball speed to 125mph can benefit. If you can hit the ball farther, there is a very, very good chance you'll shoot lower scores.

x-axis is spin, y-axis is launch angle

Little blurry for the next one. From left to right, Club head speed, percentage of golfers, and suggested lofts. The suggestions are bolded but it's tough to see here.

So for:

70-90 - 12 or 14 degrees

>90 -  10 or 12 degrees

Quick look at the "bag of the future".

Had to bump this thread. These slides really put a fire into me to learn more about high launch/low spin when I joined here a couple months ago. But the SLDR was still expensive.

Well not so much now. With the R15 coming out, SLDRs are discounted, I've seen new at $200, I got a used one for $109. Just took it out to the range to adjust it and WOW.

My previous was a 9.5 Adams redline 460 ti with R shaft, probably 10 years old now (at least). Swing speed is 95 ish. Got the SLDR, 12 degree in R shaft, based in part on the above slides and partly with the flightscope trajectory optimizer thats been linked on this site elsewhere.  My trajectory before was medium to low, even hitting up on the ball. But with the new SLDR I figure to have picked up probably 15 yards in carry and up to 25 yards total. The loft options give noticeable changes in ball flight, I ended up keeping the loft at 12 degrees. My ball flight is now way higher. And the slider straightened out my driver fade.

I'm here preaching, folks. As someone whose irons are 20 years old, wedges 15 years old, a burner bubble 3 wood and a ping 1-a putter, I'm as dubious of the technological advances as anyone, but this is real. I'm convinced it is the next big thing, I really don't see how the rear weighted higher spin drivers can compete. Your mileage may vary

[saevel25]

I'm here preaching, folks. As someone whose irons are 20 years old, wedges 15 years old, a burner bubble 3 wood and a ping 1-a putter, I'm as dubious of the technological advances as anyone, but this is real. I'm convinced it is the next big thing, I really don't see how the rear weighted higher spin drivers can compete. Your mileage may vary

The way they compete is they are easier to control. If you move the CG forward you reduce the MOI because you have less weight dispersion from front to back. Many people have found the original SLDR Driver to be much more of a better players driver because it was less controllable.

I believe Taylormade has backed off a bit on that and tried to bring back more of the forgiveness aspect back to their drives.

For me I find a nice balance if my driver numbers are 15-17 degrees of launch with 2000-2400 rpm. I have personally played the SLDR and I had to shelve it because it was a bit too uncontrollable for my game.

[DrvFrShow]

I find @mvmac original post interesting. From what I see at the driving range most everyone has a 9.5 degree driver, and pounds the ball about 200 yds. Few can really launch them and hit the back fence on the fly. One pro has flown his ball over the back fence (250). I have hit the base of the back fence once on the fly in the summer on a hot day (90 F), but can normally go about 220 on the fly with 11.5 degree driver. I have a little better carry with the 12.5 setting on my BB but I won't hit that at the range until they get new balls - I had a piece of the outer layer come off and hit me in the face the other night on an iron shot and it was a good shot. These balls are done for.

I hit my friend's 13.5 G15 driver and really liked it. It went straighter and further than my 11.5. I'm wondering if I should contact Callaway pre-owned and see if they'll swap a "like new" 10.5 degree BB head for a "like new" 13.5 degree Big Bertha head? I currently have it set at 12.5 degrees anyway. I think the extra loft might help.

I got the name of a different pro in the area from someone who has taken from him for a while and she went from shooting 88s to 78s with him. She's on one of the local teams. My irons are doing okay, and I think he might be able to help me reduce the "spray" with my driver.

[mvmac]

Driver numbers from Justin Thomas.

 

#Repost @killengolf with @repostapp. ・・・ Driver Numbers today @justinthomas34

A photo posted by Dana Dahlquist (@danadahlquist) on Dec 16, 2015 at 12:05pm PST

[imsys0042]

I'm glad this thread got bumped up.  I thought I was doing well with my driver until I did the flight scope with the pro at my course.   Basically, much like people have described here I had a negative AoA, and my launch was too low.   I had lifted up from 9.5 to 11 on my own based on TaylorMade's "loft up".   I tried it and  I felt it was slightly better or same distance.  

 

After the FlightScope I got a new club head for my driver (Titleist 913 D3) and bumped it to 12 degrees and am quite happy.   The pro changed my setup for the driver to more forward and it's a lot better.  I can only go by the number of par 5s I go for in 2, but am carrying the ball further in the air.  

[inthehole]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2014 at 9:33 PM, Zeph said:

This is an area where launch monitors prove very useful. It's not very easy to work on this at the range without seeing numbers.

Obviously, if you're willing to drop $450 on a new driver, you can use a launch monitor.    So what do the rest of you do ... walk into a Golf Galaxy with your driver over your shoulder & say I want to get my spin numbers ??   I can't imagine they'd just let you do that ...

 

How do you get access to launch monitors to even check the numbers on your driver ??

[Mr. Desmond]

I've gone up and down on loft, depending on the driver and swing. I had gone to 12.5 4 years ago, hit the ball high with little roll. From Adams Speedline to TM R1 ... loft was about the same. The R1 was too much driver for me ... it was low and forward COG, just not as much as SLDR. Think I hit a SLDR 12, and it went nowhere...

As to TM's 17 and 1700, that's for pros, not for Joe's. (I like the rhyme - it's for guys with great ballspeed) . I think you need spin to keep the ball in the air at lower ball speeds. It's a balance.

Present day - hit a Callaway GBB 9 degree set a 10 degrees, my AOA is +4, I tend to hit a high ball without  a lot of spin for my swing speed (mid to high 90's, so spin will be mid-2000's to increase carry). Will hop on Trackman for a lesson and snap a shot of new numbers. While I was surprised at 10 degrees with a mid launch, mid spin shaft, my drives go high in comparison to other people at the range. I think most would classify my flight as high but not high-high. I think most ams hit the ball too low with driver. I hit it and they frown, saying too high; I see them hit a low ball and think they are playing in the last century. Balls have changed, driver design has changed - but they have not changed their "ball window."

So loft up, down or around? Depends on driver design and your swing. Demo, get fit, change your swing and setup (AOA), not in that order.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Mr. Desmond

[Lihu]

4 hours ago, Mr. Desmond said:

As to TM's 17 and 1700, that's for pros, not for Joe's. (I like the rhyme - it's for guys with great ballspeed) . I think you need spin to keep the ball in the air at lower ball speeds. It's a balance.

Present day - hit a Callaway GBB 9 degree set a 10 degrees, my AOA is +4, I tend to hit a high ball without  a lot of spin for my swing speed (mid to high 90's, so spin will be mid-2000's to increase carry). Will hop on Trackman for a lesson and snap a shot of new numbers. While I was surprised at 10 degrees with a mid launch, mid spin shaft, my drives go high in comparison to other people at the range. I think most would classify my flight as high but not high-high. I think most ams hit the ball too low with driver. I hit it and they frown, saying too high; I see them hit a low ball and think they are playing in the last century. Balls have changed, driver design has changed - but they have not changed their "ball window."

So loft up, down or around? Depends on driver design and your swing. Demo, get fit, change your swing and setup (AOA), not in that order.

The shaft may have a lot to do with launch as well. I have an i25 9.5 degree with the PWR55 Stiff shaft, AoA of +0, tee up with 2.75" tees, and the ball launches high for a Ping. LA was about  14-16 degrees 2400rpm. Most of my shots are carry with less roll except when the fairways are dry and hard then it rolls 10-15 yards or so. The shaft must be flexing enough to give me 5 degrees?

I found that lots of other golfers with high launch M1 drivers don't hit farther than me on the course. Their shots are from good fittings, but lose their oomph at the apex and the balls drop just as if there were more spin on the balls.

BTW, at least 1/3 of the golfers on my course are using M1 drivers while another 1/3 G30. I find this a testament to good marketing, because these same golfers don't hit any farther. 

 

[Mr. Desmond]

@Lihu You may have an active tip in the shaft to assist launch. If they are using the M1, losing oomph at the Apex and falling out of the sky, they need more spin, not less.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Mr. Desmond

[dkolo]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

BTW, at least 1/3 of the golfers on my course are using M1 drivers while another 1/3 G30. I find this a testament to good marketing, because these same golfers don't hit any farther. 

 

I find that a testament to an expensive golf course, haha. I don't think I've seen anyone on the course with a driver newer than the Big Bertha 14 or the R1.

[Lihu]

15 minutes ago, dkolo said:

I find that a testament to an expensive golf course, haha. I don't think I've seen anyone on the course with a driver newer than the Big Bertha 14 or the R1.

Nah, it's a year around golf, and people tend to "wear out" stuff sooner and purchase new gear more often, I suppose?

The term "wear out" is in quotes for the usual habitual golfer reasons.

 

[DrvFrShow]

What I find interesting is that the LPGA pros have SS around mid 90s and play drivers between 8.5* and 9.5* but have a positive AoA such that they don't need the loft. Practice I guess. Lexi plays a 7.5* with a 102 SS.

I need a driver lesson.

[Lihu]

6 hours ago, Mr. Desmond said:

@Lihu You may have an active tip in the shaft to assist launch. If they are using the M1, losing oomph at the Apex and falling out of the sky, they need more spin, not less.

Didn't see this post earlier, but that's kind of what I thought as well. . .

[natureboy]

On 12/19/2015 at 10:25 PM, inthehole said:

Obviously, if you're willing to drop $450 on a new driver, you can use a launch monitor.    So what do the rest of you do ... walk into a Golf Galaxy with your driver over your shoulder & say I want to get my spin numbers ??   I can't imagine they'd just let you do that ...

 

How do you get access to launch monitors to even check the numbers on your driver ??

There's lots of places that rent time on indoor simulators. Maybe not as accurate as club fitting equipment, but will give you a decent idea.

[mvmac]

 

Education time. This player has a green jacket in the closet. #draws all day

A photo posted by Dana Dahlquist (@danadahlquist) on Jan 19, 2016 at 1:16pm PST

[mvmac]

Justin Thomas numbers. "Only" 117 club head speed and carries it 314. AoA is +3. Also note the spin and launch angle.

[kpaulhus]

Since we were just texting about it, you can see my spin rates and carry distance on my driver today on lunch. The lower the spin the longer the carry. Wanted to provide some perspective from a normal guy. Obviously 3/8 drives isn't great. The two over 3500 rpm were push slices. The three good ones were high draws.

 

[cutchemist42]

I would love to get on a launch monitor someday......really enjoyed reading this thread.

Edited January 18, 2017 by cutchemist42