Kate Upton upset, but misinformed, about country club policy

[Golfingdad]

I find this as disturbing as if the same restrictions were made due to race.  So working women are shut out of prime time on what may be the one day they could play?  That policy comes straight out of the fifties when women were supposed to be housewives - cook, clean, watch the kids, and stay out of men's business.  Now days they mostly work outside the home as long and hard as the men do, yet they are still discriminated against?  Deplorable and archaic. My home course actually has a working women's league that plays a couple of Saturday's each month, starting about 7AM, getting preference over anyone else on the days they are scheduled to play.

It's not worth arguing even though I disagree somewhat, so instead I'll just direct you to one of my more recent posts where I posted that I found out that the only official rule my brothers club has is "women only on Tuesday mornings." The Saturday men thing is an unwritten rule that apparently was "enacted" in response to the women on Tuesdays rule, and is apparently not very well adhered to anyway.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I find this as disturbing as if the same restrictions were made due to race.  So working women are shut out of prime time on what may be the one day they could play?  That policy comes straight out of the fifties when women were supposed to be housewives - cook, clean, watch the kids, and stay out of men's business.  Now days they mostly work outside the home as long and hard as the men do, yet they are still discriminated against?  Deplorable and archaic.

My home course actually has a working women's league that plays a couple of Saturday's each month, starting about 7AM, getting preference over anyone else on the days they are scheduled to play.

It's not worth arguing even though I disagree somewhat, so instead I'll just direct you to one of my more recent posts where I posted that I found out that the only official rule my brothers club has is "women only on Tuesday mornings." The Saturday men thing is an unwritten rule that apparently was "enacted" in response to the women on Tuesdays rule, and is apparently not very well adhered to anyway.

My reply was more to Joe than to you.  He said " I see nothing wrong with it" and I was actually shocked that such outdated policies still exist in our so-called "enlightened" age.

[Ernest Jones]

No. It about hot women on cheesy poses blowing bubbles. [ATTACHMENT=345]kate-upton-and-bubbles-dye.jpg (28k. jpg file)[/ATTACHMENT]

THANK YOU.

[tefunk]

Men can have men-only clubs. There are examples all over the country. That doesn't stop people from complaining, nor does it prevent women from forming exclusive clubs. I doubt there is much demand for women-only golf clubs.

My point... To those complaining about it... Wake up! Both men and women can, and do, do it... So there is equality. And any argument that there are more men only clubs when it comes to golf doesn't make things unequal... Because it's not like women can't do it... They just don't. If there was demand for more women only clubs, I know there are smart women who would sort out the details and make it happen.

[BallMarker]

I think PRIVATE clubs should be able to manage their facilities any which way they want, as long as....

1) they are fair to their employees

2) the members are ABSOLUTELY free to terminate their membership AT WILL if not satisfied with their membership.

3) the club does not in any way harm/annoy outsiders.

.

But if you think about it, the cost of joining most of these private clubs is in itself is discriminating against financially challenged, like me. But, that's more my fault than anyone else.

[WUTiger]

I see plenty wrong with it. The usual justification made is that women are slower players than men. ...

One area club pro loves this misconception. The club has a group of middle-aged women who play golf mid-morning on Wednesdays. Wednesday afternoons are stacked with play, but Wednesday AM is fairly open.

So, we get a lot of drop-in golfers from other courses on Wednesdays. Often older gentlemen would complain about having to tee off "being behind slow women." The pro would bet them $20 the women would keep up.

In fact, the women would run off and leave the visitors, often finishing 2-3 holes ahead of them.

The pro says he wins lunch money several times a year with this bet.

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As far as gender-based discrimination in golfdom, top Phoenix clubs caught a bunch of lawsuit from women circa 2010:

http://azstarnet.com/news/blogs/senor-reporter/sr-reporter-new-sex-bias-complaint-hits-phoenix-country-club/article_b49e016e-312b-11df-acb5-001cc4c03286.html

One problem members in exclusive clubs have: the bylaws may include fine-print details providing that a person can be expelled from the club if they complain about internal goings-on to outside parties. So, rich people sometimes live under a gag order. One of the Phoenix stories (not this one) discussed such a situation.

[Dave2512]

My experience is women are rarely slow. If anything they blaze through with their short and mostly straight shots. Typically don't see them farting around on greens either. Have never seen any kicking around for lost balls in weeds.

[Golfingdad]

My experience is women are rarely slow.

Wait ... so you're saying that most of the women you experience are "fast" women?? I guess I should've lived in Colorado when I was single.

[inthehole]

My experience is women are rarely slow. If anything they blaze through with their short and mostly straight shots. Typically don't see them farting around on greens either. Have never seen any kicking around for lost balls in weeds.

agree - as long as we're stereotyping ... I see lots of older guys lining up putts ad nauseum like it's Augusta National.      Personally, the slowest ladies foursome I've experienced is far quicker than a foursome of old retired guys (especially when they're betting) - I realize at their stage of life, they aren't in any kind of hurry  ... but it is truly amazing the time they take & total disregard for those waiting behind them  ...

[meenman]

In our club by-laws, it says that no more than one family member can tee off before 11am on weekends - which could be used to keep women out. I have never seen this rule enforced as long as I have been there.

Honestly, the weekend women are a bunch of speed demons - we are sandwiched between the big money game and the women every saturday - and they sit there waiting like we do.

The weekday women are a bit different - they tee off at 9am and i have caught 3 groups of them on the 12th hole at 1 PM (which is why I will never play on WGA days again)

[saturday]

I am Saturday. I declare Saturday to be men's only. Chasm, you're not allowed to play. Private club rules. :)

[rb72]

Point one: a strawman argument, in that you are refuting a point I never made. In my original post I suggested that if slow play were the issue, it would be better addressed by excluding high handicappers at busy times rather than discriminating on grounds of gender. So "all women" would not qualify, and you argument falls.

Point two: if we are taking about mens leagues and womens leagues, I'm inclined to agree. But the argument was about whether times should be reserved for men to the exclusion of women outside of that scenario. And there are plenty of women who both work and can afford to be members of expensive clubs. Remarkably, women are allowed to be doctors and lawyers and CEOs these days. They have no more time for sport during the week than have their male colleagues.

Point three: another strawman argument. I've never suggested that tee times at weekends should be reserved for women, I've said that they shouldn't be reserved for men. My position would be (single-sex competitions aside) that both men and women should be entitled to play on a first come, first served basis.

I've always found it interesting that so many men become irate as soon as it is pointed out that they give themselves privileges that they do not allow women to enjoy. Golf Clubs in my country (and, judging from this thread, country clubs in the States ) are especially prone to these nineteenth-century attitudes. It's time they caught up with the rest of society, imo. But hey, carry on believing that your attitudes are based on logic: it's no skin off my nose.

1.The fact that you believe high handicappers would be a more effective exclusion doesn't make it so. I don't know how it is in England but here there are about 10 to 15 publics to every private country club so the privates draw mostly good golfers, not many handicaps above the mid teens. I'm a 17 myself and I'm an extremely fast golfer. the exception to the good golfer rule at the private club: the good golfer's wife, who's probably a 36.

2. I don't know what the hell the existence of female CEO's has to do with this argument but I'm sure male CEO's outnumber female CEO's by at least a 10 to 1 margin, so what's your point.

3. I never said anything about weekends reserved for women. What I'm saying is that the SATURDAY allotment for the men still leaves them with a typical overcrowded tee time competitive 5 hour window whereas the women can enjoy a wide open TUESDAY morning of golf.

The bottom line is you have made the claim that it IS "discrimination plain and simple". And I'VE always found it interesting that the type of person who is convinced that they automatically become superior people by espousing as many liberalisms as they can, have no problem with accusing people that they don't know of horrible things with absolutely no facts in evidence. For all you know the golf club in question may have done exhaustive research into the equity of this arrangement. Maybe they found out that the overwhelming majority of female members do not, in fact, work on Tuesdays and are, in fact among the highest handicaps. Maybe it was the female members who suggested and voted in this policy. YOU DON'T KNOW. But as long as it feels good to jerk that knee, you go right ahead and do it. That does, after all, make you a better person.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by chasm

Point one: a strawman argument, in that you are refuting a point I never made. In my original post I suggested that if slow play were the issue, it would be better addressed by excluding high handicappers at busy times rather than discriminating on grounds of gender. So "all women" would not qualify, and you argument falls.

Point two: if we are taking about mens leagues and womens leagues, I'm inclined to agree. But the argument was about whether times should be reserved for men to the exclusion of women outside of that scenario. And there are plenty of women who both work and can afford to be members of expensive clubs. Remarkably, women are allowed to be doctors and lawyers and CEOs these days. They have no more time for sport during the week than have their male colleagues.

Point three: another strawman argument. I've never suggested that tee times at weekends should be reserved for women, I've said that they shouldn't be reserved for men. My position would be (single-sex competitions aside) that both men and women should be entitled to play on a first come, first served basis.

I've always found it interesting that so many men become irate as soon as it is pointed out that they give themselves privileges that they do not allow women to enjoy. Golf Clubs in my country (and, judging from this thread, country clubs in the States ) are especially prone to these nineteenth-century attitudes. It's time they caught up with the rest of society, imo. But hey, carry on believing that your attitudes are based on logic: it's no skin off my nose.

1.The fact that you believe high handicappers would be a more effective exclusion doesn't make it so. I don't know how it is in England but here there are about 10 to 15 publics to every private country club so the privates draw mostly good golfers, not many handicaps above the mid teens. I'm a 17 myself and I'm an extremely fast golfer. the exception to the good golfer rule at the private club: the good golfer's wife, who's probably a 36.

2. I don't know what the hell the existence of female CEO's has to do with this argument but I'm sure male CEO's outnumber female CEO's by at least a 10 to 1 margin, so what's your point.

3. I never said anything about weekends reserved for women. What I'm saying is that the SATURDAY allotment for the men still leaves them with a typical overcrowded tee time competitive 5 hour window whereas the women can enjoy a wide open TUESDAY morning of golf.

The bottom line is you have made the claim that it IS "discrimination plain and simple". And I'VE always found it interesting that the type of person who is convinced that they automatically become superior people by espousing as many liberalisms as they can, have no problem with accusing people that they don't know of horrible things with absolutely no facts in evidence. For all you know the golf club in question may have done exhaustive research into the equity of this arrangement. Maybe they found out that the overwhelming majority of female members do not, in fact, work on Tuesdays and are, in fact among the highest handicaps. Maybe it was the female members who suggested and voted in this policy. YOU DON'T KNOW. But as long as it feels good to jerk that knee, you go right ahead and do it. That does, after all, make you a better person.

Sounds to me like someone else's knee is a bit twitchy.  You are basing your entire premise on supposition with no facts to support it.  YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER!!  Most women I have known and played golf with over the years did NOT have Tuesdays available any more than the men did (at least, not until they retired like I did).  They didn't have Mondays or Thursdays either, two other common "Women's Days" - what the club considers a throwaway day, so why not make it look like we are being generous and call it Ladies Day.  I worked as a starter at my home course for 5 years.  Tuesday was typically the slowest day of the week.  I assume that is why it became Ladies Day on the courses mentioned above.

I don't care that Saturday mornings are full just with men - that doesn't make it right to bar other members from the opportunity to play.  Such a policy is simply bigoted.

My home course happens to be a public course.  Almost every course I've ever played is public.  The one private club that I played occasionally with my brother-in-law didn't practice any sort of discrimination that I ever observed.  His wife, my wife's sister, was an excellent golfer and played many Saturday mornings with us.

[cfritchie]

I didn't take the time to read every comment...but..

A private club...IS A PRIVATE CLUB!

They should have the right to allow only green martians play from 2:00am - 5:00am if they want..yeah...it opens the door for discrimination....but isn't that why it is private?

If I build a "PRIVATE" club and get no funding from the government I should be able to decide who can and who can't play whenever I decide.

Now if this is a public course then 100% no there should not be any discrimination.

[chasm]

I didn't take the time to read every comment...but.. A private club...IS A PRIVATE CLUB! They should have the right to allow only green martians play from 2:00am - 5:00am if they want..yeah...it opens the door for discrimination....but isn't that why it is private? If I build a "PRIVATE" club and get no funding from the government I should be able to decide who can and who can't play whenever I decide. Now if this is a public course then 100% no there should not be any discrimination.

Of course. Nobody here, as far as I can see, is suggesting that private clubs should be barred from making their own rules. The discussion is about what rules are sensible, and desirable. Were I in the happy position of owning a club I'd want to make rules that encouraged as many people as possible to play ( and I do think we could do more to encourage women into the game) and protected the good players, irrespective of gender. Being private certainly entitles one to make rules based on prejudice. But that doesn't make prejudice a good idea.

[rb72]

Sounds to me like someone else's knee is a bit twitchy.  You are basing your entire premise on supposition with no facts to support it.  YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER!!  Most women I have known and played golf with over the years did NOT have Tuesdays available any more than the men did (at least, not until they retired like I did).  They didn't have Mondays or Thursdays either, two other common "Women's Days" - what the club considers a throwaway day, so why not make it look like we are being generous and call it Ladies Day.  I worked as a starter at my home course for 5 years.  Tuesday was typically the slowest day of the week.  I assume that is why it became Ladies Day on the courses mentioned above.

I don't care that Saturday mornings are full just with men - that doesn't make it right to bar other members from the opportunity to play.  Such a policy is simply bigoted.

My home course happens to be a public course.  Almost every course I've ever played is public.  The one private club that I played occasionally with my brother-in-law didn't practice any sort of discrimination that I ever observed.  His wife, my wife's sister, was an excellent golfer and played many Saturday mornings with us.

Incorrect. My position is that the policy is not NECESSARILY discriminatory. I'm not professing to know anything without having personal knowledge of the situation. Yet you, just like Mr. Chasm have proclaimed it "simply bigoted" knowing no more about it than I do. Thank you for proving my point about the liberal mindset. Some people believe that they can buy a "stairway to heaven" and some believe that they can secure their own with enough politically correct rhetoric. POLITICAL CORRECTNESS UBER ALLIS!!

[chasm]

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS UBER ALLIS!!

Really, don't be silly. Ranting about political correctness isn't an argument. The question is simply this. Should women golfers be treated on their merits, and given equal consideration to men of similar ability? Ifthe answer is yes, then it takes some pretty fancy footwork to suggest that they should be excluded from the course at popular times just because they happen to be women.

[k-troop]

Really, don't be silly. Ranting about political correctness isn't an argument.

The question is simply this. Should women golfers be treated on their merits, and given equal consideration to men of similar ability? Ifthe answer is yes, then it takes some pretty fancy footwork to suggest that they should be excluded from the course at popular times just because they happen to be women.

Maybe the question is this:  should people who are not members of a particular private club impose rules on that club that clearly conflict with the will of the members?  And should non-members interlope in defense of a sub-set of those members who have not complained?

And Tuesday is a clearly inferior day for anyone who works, but that's not the issue.  The issue is that the members make these policies and enforce them (or don't) to their own ends.  The idea of a bunch of downtrodden country-club wives being subjected to systemic abuse and discrimination is really hilarious when you think about it.