This Par 5 Gives Me Fits... I Have A Real Problem With The Design / Layout

[CartShedCop]

Ok, I am going to TRY and be as clear and brief as I can with this New Thread. Here it goes... So there is a hole on one of my local tracks (Semi Private) that just doesn't see eye to eye with me. Yesterday, like many other days, I approached this hole at 1-over on the back. It's the 16th hole so I'm heading in with good number for me and my current game. Here is my beef with the hole's layout and design: It's a Par 5. It travels REALLY down, then REALLY back up. From the Blue Tees (One up from Championship Tees) you have the following to deal with and compute off the tee: At the end of the right hand side of the FW, you have 270yds before 100yds of waste and unplayable natural area; On the left you have 285. Also on the right hand side, between the FW and the deep woods, there is a trap that resides 208 through 240 yards. The 100yds of waste area is the low point of the hole and thus begins the steep grade back up. The green is not in view from the bottom of the fairway, nor can you see it until you get inside of 150yds. So, there is SOME idea of what you are faced with. For me, it's NOT a driver hole... at all. Baby it and i'll peel one into the soft-sanded fairway bunker on the right. Overcook a "bunt" and I roll into "the mess." Swing away and I'm deeper into said mess. Now I know, I know... hit 3W, hit a hybrid, hell - hit an iron. Well, 3W puts me in danger of reaching the tall stuff, and an iron makes for a difficult downhill-lie second shot over aforementioned mess with still the possibility of a blind 200yd third shot. That being said, I normall hit an easy 3 or 4 hybrid (wind-based) and try to roll out to the 285yd left side. Note - your tee shot is onto a drastically sloped fairway and the ground is always hard and fast. After ALL of that (I tried to post a picture, sorry!!), what are YOUR thoughts/feelings on a Par 5 design that takes driver out of play for even moderately long recreational golfers, only to then have an uphill, blind second shot, that either requires a downhill or uphill lie or 100yards of tall nasty unplayable waste area? I just feel like a par 5 that has no reward or opportunity for a good long tee ball is kind of "wrong." I like risk/reward holes. They seem to test your judgement and decision making. I understand the need and mentallity for the "Just take your par, and move along" holes, but if a premium is going to be placed on the tee ball, should there not be a rewarding "Green light" area? Maybe it's personal for me. Maybe I've carded too many doubles and bogeys here; not enough pars and only a handful of birdies over 5+ years of playing this course. Or maybe, just maybe... it's because it's one of the four closing holes that I can not hit driver!!! Yeah, that MIGHT have something to do with it...

[RH31]

I don't like par 5's that take driver out of your hand either. That said, sometimes you just have to take your medicine. Lay up, make a 5 or no worse than 6 and don't let one crap hole ruin your round.

[David in FL]

On some holes, par is a good score.  Sounds like this may be one of them.

Sounds like your doubles might come from trying to make it into something that it's not, i.e., a reachable par-5.  Accept the fact that you're not going to be hitting this green and with a good wedge, you're still putting for birdie.

FWIW, it sounds like a pretty good hole to me.  Maybe it's because I'm not a terribly long hitter, but I don't have much expectation of reaching any but the shortest par-5's, and those tend to be pretty wimpy little holes.  I like a par-5 with some teeth.  It keeps shorter hitters like m in the game!

[iacas]

You could just tell us the name of the course and someone else could post a picture (with some measurements).

[CartShedCop]

That's a solid idea... give everyone a glimpse at what I speak of. It's #16 at The Preserve At Jordan Lake. It's a wonderful course that is challenging to all level of player. There's talk of redoing the hole, specifically the waste area. Apparently I'm not alone in regards to the landing area in relation to the second shot and the lie you are normally faced with when forced to hit hybrid or iron.

[Dave2512]

Looks fine to me. You'd have to hit a 305 yard shot to hit through the fairway, looks like the native area is beyond that. For most that's not a layup. I don't look at 574 yard par 5's as birdie opportunities often. The instance of two putt birdies probably rare on this hole. A 3w and long iron should get you inside 100 yards. I wouldn't feel there is lost opportunity on this hole and I've seen worse designs. This seems pretty straightforward.

[iacas]

Is this the hole? I drew a line 300 yards long. It's about 300 yards from there to the middle of the green.

Looks like a 3W (because it's downhill) to hybrid (if it's really firm), hybrid/3W second shot, and then a pitch to a 3/4 wedge of some kind.

[CartShedCop]

Yep. That's the beast that haunts my hopes and dreams of breaking 80 on/at this course on a regular basis. Ha! I guess I need to clarify a few things: First - the slope from tee(s) to landing area is rather severe; so much so that one can not see the "ideal" landing area from the tee box. This is the reason that for even a "kind of long hitter" like myself, even a 3w - especially this time of year, is a risk. (I say "kind of long hitter" in that while no, I'm not Mr. 300 everytime, I do get a good poke out there consistently, 265-275. Hey, you gotta find some use for 240lbs.) Secondly, even at the end of the first fairway, it still slopes downhill enough to where you feel it (the slope) as you stand over your second shot. Thirdly, the second fairway - post "mess", is so uphill and above your head that it's very daunting as well. It seems to have a way of making all level of golfer want to pull their head up in an attempt to "help the ball get up." I guess I should say this: I give the designers full credit for not only this hole, but the entire course. I should've been more clear in my original post. It was meant to be part informal poll question/roundtable in regards to holes, specifically Par 5s, that seem to be almost unfair based upon the shots you are "forced" to hit to have even a modicum of a chance at par or better. The other part that I hoped this thread would shed light on is how this hole in particular really highlights the shortcomings of my current game. Is some of this hole "mental" for me? Oh heck yes. I'll admit that. I am not sure with my 3w off the tee and for some reason I feel the need to overswing a hybrid on this tee. Please do not think that I am blaming the design of the hole as my sole reason for "blowing up" every 3 out of 5 times I play this Kracken. While I do not care for the two tedious shots required (for me anyway) to put a SW in my hand, I take my own share of blame when it comes to all of the 6s and 7s I've angrily scribbled on the card. So to sum up, and hopefully spark a bit of conversation, in combination with design and hauntings of doubles past - this hole has my number... and I'm tired of feeling like its "booty call!"

[LuciusWooding]

Tough hole to make a 4 on. I'd forget about hitting a sand wedge in; hit a pair of hybrids to short iron distance or so and try and hit somewhere on the green. Then get up and down or 2 putt if possible and make a 5. If you have trouble hitting the fairway then that's the simplest option. Hitting the green in regulation solves all par 5 problems.

That said, I don't see anything here that prevents a driver, it's just a little tight. A 7i out of the rough doesn't scare me, and I'm probably taking 3 anyway to get there, so I'd rather hit it somewhere past the right fairway bunker if possible. We have 2 soul crushing par 5s on my course as well so I feel your pain.

[CartShedCop]

Right of, and long of that trap is a very sharp drop-off into a heavily wooded (boar sighted in there twice) stand of trees and brush. You need climbing gear. This photo appears to have been taken during the fall or winter. That natural area in season is thick with 3 to 4 feet tall brush and greenery. Also, the course's natural areas are posted as "protected natural habitats" and as such, you are not permitted to venture into or play out of. Barring a decent head wind AND damp conditions, anyone who drives the ball at/near 250 is S.O.L. Trust me. Many a golfer has stood up there, hit the big stick and thought - Man, I normally don't hit it 280! That fairway is a springboard dead-downhill. After yesterday's round I vowed to spend some time during each range session hitting a dozen or so shots from varying lies that I can find just off of the normal hitting areas - people and space permitting, of course. I am a range rat. I could hit balls all day every day, time permitting. Holes like this SHOULD serve as a reminder to me that the Golf World is not flat and as such, I need to practice imperfect lies and stances if I want to get the most out of my practice time.

[ev780]

When I get a demon hole like this I started by playing it backwards.  Where is my best shot.  For me it's 100 yards.  Deadly from there most days.  Next I figure out the best way to get there and play that.  If I miss one of the previous shots I take my medicine and still try to get to 100 yards. Accept a bogey and get to a hole that likes me better.  I just try really hard not to post the big number on my most hated holes.

YMMV

[iacas]

When I get a demon hole like this I started by playing it backwards.  Where is my best shot.  For me it's 100 yards.  Deadly from there most days.

Long story short: I highly doubt you're better from 100 yards than you are from 20 yards. Or 30 yards. Or 40 yards.

[Golfingdad]

Ok, I am going to TRY and be as clear and brief as I can with this New Thread. Here it goes...

So there is a hole on one of my local tracks (Semi Private) that just doesn't see eye to eye with me. Yesterday, like many other days, I approached this hole at 1-over on the back. It's the 16th hole so I'm heading in with good number for me and my current game. Here is my beef with the hole's layout and design:

It's a Par 5. It travels REALLY down, then REALLY back up. From the Blue Tees (One up from Championship Tees) you have the following to deal with and compute off the tee: At the end of the right hand side of the FW, you have 270yds before 100yds of waste and unplayable natural area; On the left you have 285. Also on the right hand side, between the FW and the deep woods, there is a trap that resides 208 through 240 yards.

The 100yds of waste area is the low point of the hole and thus begins the steep grade back up.

The green is not in view from the bottom of the fairway, nor can you see it until you get inside of 150yds.

So, there is SOME idea of what you are faced with. For me, it's NOT a driver hole... at all. Baby it and i'll peel one into the soft-sanded fairway bunker on the right. Overcook a "bunt" and I roll into "the mess." Swing away and I'm deeper into said mess.

Now I know, I know... hit 3W, hit a hybrid, hell - hit an iron. Well, 3W puts me in danger of reaching the tall stuff, and an iron makes for a difficult downhill-lie second shot over aforementioned mess with still the possibility of a blind 200yd third shot. That being said, I normall hit an easy 3 or 4 hybrid (wind-based) and try to roll out to the 285yd left side. Note - your tee shot is onto a drastically sloped fairway and the ground is always hard and fast.

After ALL of that (I tried to post a picture, sorry!!), what are YOUR thoughts/feelings on a Par 5 design that takes driver out of play for even moderately long recreational golfers, only to then have an uphill, blind second shot, that either requires a downhill or uphill lie or 100yards of tall nasty unplayable waste area?

I just feel like a par 5 that has no reward or opportunity for a good long tee ball is kind of "wrong." I like risk/reward holes. They seem to test your judgement and decision making. I understand the need and mentallity for the "Just take your par, and move along" holes, but if a premium is going to be placed on the tee ball, should there not be a rewarding "Green light" area?

Maybe it's personal for me. Maybe I've carded too many doubles and bogeys here; not enough pars and only a handful of birdies over 5+ years of playing this course. Or maybe, just maybe... it's because it's one of the four closing holes that I can not hit driver!!! Yeah, that MIGHT have something to do with it...

Funny ... this description is very similar to one of my least favorite holes.  It's a 600 yard par 5 with hazards along both sides and a ravine that chops off the fairway at about 260 through 320 from the tee.  It's also downhill to the ravine and then uphill from there.  I usually hit hybrid off the tee (last time that still put me through the end of the fairway, in the rough short of the ravine but with a steep downhill lie), hybrid, or maybe 3 wood again, and then a wedge or 9 iron.  I just suck on that hole, so I feel your pain. :)  (I couldn't tell you where, but I remember that I have complained about this hole before on here somewhere ;))

[WUTiger]

CartShed,

Sounds like No. 16 is your beehive hole - you step up on the tee, and your mind starts buzzin' with all the things that can go wrong. This hurts all your shots.

Do what the others have suggested - hit a 3W off the tee, and get your second shot over the junk and into the fairway for final approach. Play one shot at a time.

My beehive hole is No. 15, also an uphill par 5. If I hit back-to-back hybrids and a 7-iron, I can usually get par or a bogie. If I try a driver, it can be.. really high.

[vangator]

Looks like an interesting hole. I don't go for a lot of par 5's in two unless it is really open. They are designed to gooble up balls.

[kpaulhus]

Here is the Par 5 18th at Deercreek where I was a member. So much risk reward with the pond right in front of the elevated green. I've made 6 eagles and a few birdies on this hole. Even two putted my way to a career low 72 on this course. Now to get to your post about a tough hole....here lies the 480 par 4 4th hole. Soggy fairway most of the time. OB left of the green and a lake to the right. Trees on the left force you to drive right of the hole usually leaving you with some sort of angle over the lake. Huge greekside bunkers and if you miss right of the hole it's slopped so steep your ball goes.into the lake. A par or bogey on this hole is a great score, heck, par skins usually hold up here. Birdies are cash for sure.