Lowest Effective Loft of a Pitching Wedge?

[onthehunt526]

My PW plays at 44.  I had the clubs bent to where I wanted them to be.  I wasnt getting the right gap between my clubs.  Essentially now I have a PW that plays like a 9 iron, a 9 iron that plays like an 8 iron and so on.   As long as I can hit them the distance that I want I dont care what club it is or what it says on the bottom.

Do you have a SGI/GI or Players iron out of curiosity?

[bmumper]

Titleist 710 AP1s

[onthehunt526]

SGI irons then which have a low VCOG... so I'll say basically the static loft is 44° PW... but the dynamic loft is higher, but this thread I started several months ago has to do with the lowest effective loft of a PW... I have concluded with the redistribution of weight in SGI and GI heads, SGI has an effective lowest loft of 42°, GI heads are closer to 44°-45° and Players heads with their higher VCOG 46°-47°, depending on whether the head is a forged cavity back or blade or just a player's head in general... There is another factor I didn't realize that does in a way effect static loft: offset... how much does that effect it... as from most to least UGI, SGI, GI, Players... would that have an effect on static/effective loft? Mike and Erik would you agree that dynamic loft is actually the effective loft of a club?

[saevel25]

SGI irons then which have a low VCOG... so I'll say basically the static loft is 44° PW... but the dynamic loft is higher, but this thread I started several months ago has to do with the lowest effective loft of a PW... I have concluded with the redistribution of weight in SGI and GI heads, SGI has an effective lowest loft of 42°, GI heads are closer to 44°-45° and Players heads with their higher VCOG 46°-47°, depending on whether the head is a forged cavity back or blade or just a player's head in general...

Static loft will always be the loft of the club locked in a device measured consistently with the same methods.

Dynamic Loft is achieved by adding in the swing components, Center of Gravity, and how the shaft flexes.

Dynamic Loft is usually less than the static loft. A PGA Tour player averages a launch angle of 24 degrees with their Pitching Wedge. They average an angle of attack of -5.0 degrees. Dynamic Loft must be less than the static loft.

The golfer will deloft the club, and the club shaft will flex as well. It depends on the shot. If a golfer is hitting a pitch shot they dynamic loft might be more inline with the actual loft of the club. Less shaft lean, less shaft flex (softer swing).

Static Loft is Static Loft. Really it doesn't matter because  all you need is to get good gaping between your irons. So just fill in the gaps with some wedges on the back end and some hybrids or fairway woods on the top end and you are set. No need to worry about this level of detail.

There is another factor I didn't realize that does in a way effect static loft: offset... how much does that effect it... as from most to least UGI, SGI, GI, Players... would that have an effect on static/effective loft?

Mike and Erik would you agree that dynamic loft is actually the effective loft of a club?

Offset doesn't add in much at all. You are talking a very small distance, usually a few millimeters, and saying how big of an impact does this have on a club head moving at lets say 50 miles per hour. That is 73.5 feet per second, or 882 inches per second, or 22,403 mm per second.

Offsets can be up to 6 millimeters. So if you take two clubs, lets say one with zero offset and one with 6 millimeters (Quarter of an inch), the one with 6 millimeters will be delayed 0.0003 seconds at impact if all else being equal. I am not even bringing in rate of closure, but I would say it is a very very small impact.

I would say offset as little to no effect on loft.

[onthehunt526]

I agree with the launch angle being roughly 1/2 of the the club's loft on the PGA Tour... I read an article about how Jason Dufner chooses irons. He says he looking a spin rate of around 1000 times the number on the bottom of the club...and a launch angle of 1/2 of the club's static loft... Pros hit all of their clubs around the same height (90 feet I think... unless your Jason Day at 145 feet)

[onthehunt526]

On 9/8/2014 at 9:23 AM, Tee2Trees said:

Wilson broke the mold with their Di9 irons.

 

http://www.wilson.com/dyn/golf/ws_specs/usa/di9.asp

 

Comes with a 42.5 degree PW, so they offered 2 gap wedges to fill the gap -- a 46 degree A and a 49.5 degree G (notice this still leaves a big loft gap unless you use a 54 degree SW).  Also, the shafts are longer than standard by at least 0.5".  So basically, it's a mis-numbered set of irons that have upright lie angles.

Callaway broke that mold twice in 6 months. The Epic Star irons come with a 39° PW. That is not a misprint, you read that correctly 39 degrees. 

The Rogue X irons come with a 41° PW. I guess Callaway figured out a way to create Driver C.O.R. in a set of irons.  Again not a misprint. 41 degree pitching wedge. But this is an SGI iron, probably a Super Ultra Game Improvement iron with an MPF north of 1000.

So in UGI/SGI we have a 39° and 41° PW (paired with a 26 and 27 degree 7-iron respectively).

Game-Improvement Irons got down to about 44° and haven't really went much lower.

Cavity-backed player's irons, the lowest I've seen is 45° (I suppose this could go to 44° in cast models)

The forged Cavity-backed players irons are all around 46° in the PW. (I think the one Apex, and a Srixon was 45°)

Almost all blades are either 46° or 47° in the PW. I think the 46° is about the lowest you can theoretically go with a blade (though I've seen literally one or two at 45° as a standard loft)

That being said it depends on the type of iron you're talking about. But we have a 39° PW on the market, folks... (And a stock 41°). Callaway needs to bring back the 10-iron I guess.

[WUTiger]

On 9/7/2014 at 11:18 PM, onthehunt526 said:

My opinion that in a vacuum number 45 sounds good to me, but I think any lower than 44° forces you almost to buy 2 clubs to gap the PW SW gap...:

PW stronger than 44° could cause problems. One solution would be to combine old-style PW and GW into one club. In my case, {46 + 50} / 2 = 48

For about five seasons, I carried my iron set 46° PW and CG14s at 50-54-58. I started noticing things: I used either 46° or 50° for greenside pitch and shaggy chip shots, but rarely both the same day... in my Dave Pelz-ish wedge matrix, I had several cells which overlapped in yardage... and the grooves on my wedges were quite worn.

So, I made a radical change and went with 48-54-60 as shown in my sig.  One less wedge to practice, and less indecision greenside. I've got a bit of a gap between 9i (41°) and 48°, but I can choke down on 9i or hood 48° slightly for tweener yardage.

Some players drop the LW and just go with a 56° SW as highest lofted club.

[onthehunt526]

4 hours ago, WUTiger said:

PW stronger than 44° could cause problems. One solution would be to combine old-style PW and GW into one club. In my case, {46 + 50} / 2 = 48

For about five seasons, I carried my iron set 46° PW and CG14s at 50-54-58. I started noticing things: I used either 46° or 50° for greenside pitch and shaggy chip shots, but rarely both the same day... in my Dave Pelz-ish wedge matrix, I had several cells which overlapped in yardage... and the grooves on my wedges were quite worn.

So, I made a radical change and went with 48-54-60 as shown in my sig.  One less wedge to practice, and less indecision greenside. I've got a bit of a gap between 9i (41°) and 48°, but I can choke down on 9i or hood 48° slightly for tweener yardage.

Some players drop the LW and just go with a 56° SW as highest lofted club.

Playing a PW/GW as one club does sort of solve the problem I guess.

I do understand why the "PW" has to be what the static loft is at in some of these clubs. I'd be willing to bet, the Callaway Rogue X Pitching wedge (41°) probably launches much higher than say an Apex MB PW which is 47°. The CG is lower in the Rogue X, and the face is hotter, than the Apex MB. Both heads weigh pretty much the same, but the weight is in different locations on said clubs. 

Does it create the need for a 5th wedge? Only possibly. @WUTiger , your solution works in your situation, it could work for people who play these 8-iron lofted "pitching wedges". 

In the $300 a club Epic Star irons the "PW" is 39°, the "AW" is 44° , "GW" is 49°, and "SW" is 54° (you can't really have a sand wedge with less than that because, it definitely loses its effectiveness at that point).

Though you could claim to your friends you hit your PW 150 yards even though it's basically an 8-iron.

[WUTiger]

14 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Does it create the need for a 5th wedge? Only possibly. @WUTiger , your solution works in your situation, it could work for people who play these 8-iron lofted "pitching wedges". 

oth,

You're in good company with this view. Dave Pelz talks about the 8i lofted PWs in one of his intro short-game videos. That's why he suggests four or five wedges due to modern uber-strong lofts.

A caution on me: I'm a bit of an oddity for an American golfer - I play chip-and-run and pitch-and-run more than most people do. Hence my 3-wedge mix works OK - for me.

My wedge matrix ends up with a 12-yard and 10-yard gap, but I just choke down a little to shave yardage. Other than these two gaps, everything else is covered by 6-yard gaps.

Long hitters probably get the most out of the five-wedge mix. That way, they have more options in close.

[onthehunt526]

33 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

oth,

You're in good company with this view. Dave Pelz talks about the 8i lofted PWs in one of his intro short-game videos. That's why he suggests four or five wedges due to modern uber-strong lofts.

A caution on me: I'm a bit of an oddity for an American golfer - I play chip-and-run and pitch-and-run more than most people do. Hence my 3-wedge mix works OK - for me.

My wedge matrix ends up with a 12-yard and 10-yard gap, but I just choke down a little to shave yardage. Other than these two gaps, everything else is covered by 6-yard gaps.

Long hitters probably get the most out of the five-wedge mix. That way, they have more options in close.

@WUTiger,

Even you've gotta admit a 39° PW is a little overkill. (So is 41° for that matter) I understand why they have to do it, but if your going to make a PW that strong, call it a 10-iron.

 

[WUTiger]

Although I struggle to break 90, I still cringe at the thought of an iron set that has a PW less than of 45*.  The SGI and even some GI irons just have lofts that are too strong.

That's one reason I like the TE CB Pro Tungsten irons: 4i = 22* up through PW = 46*... 4* gaps all the way; (and I got them airborne just fine on demo day).

[onthehunt526]

28 minutes ago, WUTiger said:

Although I struggle to break 90, I still cringe at the thought of an iron set that has a PW less than of 45*.  The SGI and even some GI irons just have lofts that are too strong.

That's one reason I like the TE CB Pro Tungsten irons: 4i = 22* up through PW = 46*... 4* gaps all the way; (and I got them airborne just fine on demo day).

I might pick up the 3 and/or 4 iron in those for my "driving iron(s)"

I agree John some O.E.Ms over-do the "compensation for CG". You don't need a 39° PW Callaway. I can see 42° or 43° if the face is really that "hot". But 39° come on. Even 41° is a little hairy. (Though the 7-iron I hit went like 185 yards carry but for all intensive purposes it's a 5-iron)

[onthehunt526]

I’m putting my two cents back into this topic. Yes SGI lofts are crazy strong to combat lower and deeper vertical center of gravity. Otherwise the ball would just shoot straight up in the air and go nowhere, supposedly.

OEMs typically don’t want you to know this but here it is. Loft is your friend. It is harder to curve a club with more loft than less. I might need @iacas to explain the following better than I can. 

It’s called “dispersion plane” or D-plane for short. It’s the reason that the 130 yard 9-iron you missed 5 yards right (not exact) for striking 5 degrees off center isn’t in the woods like it would be with a driver.

Dispersion isn’t just left and right though. Yes the high MOI, low CG, SGI irons help with that. The short and long is the tougher one. Distance control with SGI clubs is very difficult. 

[billchao]

On 1/20/2018 at 5:41 PM, onthehunt526 said:

You don't need a 39° PW Callaway.

They do or they wouldn't make it. It's dictated by their head design at a specific average swing speed in order to launch the ball at 25° or whatever.

You don't need a 39° PW, but that's not the same thing. You're not the target market for that set of clubs.

On 1/20/2018 at 5:41 PM, onthehunt526 said:

Though the 7-iron I hit went like 185 yards carry but for all intensive purposes it's a 5-iron

If it launches at 17° and lands at 44°, it's a 7i. You're getting hung up on static loft and the distance you hit the ball as the determining factor for what an iron is and that's not how the industry defines it.

6 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Yes SGI lofts are crazy strong to combat lower and deeper vertical center of gravity. Otherwise the ball would just shoot straight up in the air and go nowhere, supposedly.

That's a bit of an exaggeration, but essentially the ball launches too high and is harder to control for accuracy.

6 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

OEMs typically don’t want you to know this but here it is. Loft is your friend. It is harder to curve a club with more loft than less. I might need @iacas to explain the following better than I can. 

It’s called “dispersion plane” or D-plane for short. It’s the reason that the 130 yard 9-iron you missed 5 yards right (not exact) for striking 5 degrees off center isn’t in the woods like it would be with a driver.

It's harder to curve a higher lofted club but a large part of the reason your 9i doesn't go in the woods like your driver is because you hit your 9i half the distance of your driver. It's the same reason people with slower swing speeds are "more accurate" than people with faster swing speeds. A 250 yard shot hit 6° off line is going to miss farther off center than a 200 yard shot hit 6° off line.

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Dispersion isn’t just left and right though. Yes the high MOI, low CG, SGI irons help with that. The short and long is the tougher one. Distance control with SGI clubs is very difficult.

For you, but you're not the target market for those clubs. The guy who sprays the ball all over the face is going to get better distance control and overall dispersion with a GI or SGI club vs a MB.

If he hits a MB off the toe and the ball lands 25 yards short of the intended target but the same SGI club only comes up 15 yards short, that's a net gain of 10 yards in accuracy. Distance is a form of accuracy, too.

[saevel25]

16 minutes ago, billchao said:

They do or they wouldn't make it. It's dictated by their head design at a specific average swing speed in order to launch the ball at 25° or whatever.

You don't need a 39° PW, but that's not the same thing. You're not the target market for that set of clubs.

The Back to The Future quote comes to mind,

“Marty! You’re not thinking fourth dimensionally!”

You got dynamic loft at impact, CG location, and the clubface presented at impact. 

[colin007]

5 wedges??? WTF???

I hit my PW for everything 135 down to about 80 or so, then a SW for everything else. Two wedges keeps my bag lighter.

[cooke119]

My PW is a 45*, Gap is a 50* and SW is a 56*, pretty good gaping. Having said that I fell in love with a Fourteen 52* wedge and I use that as my gap wedge most of the time. It feels better then the gap wedge that came with the set I purchased. I don't use a LW, have always had trouble with it.

[dennyjones]

@onthehunt526,   you've revived an older thread that you stated and it got me thinking.....You need to upgrade your avatar!  That pic of you and your daughter is from 2014!   .

 

I just was fitted for new clubs.   My pitching wedge is 43.5°, gap wedge is 49°, sand wedge is 54.5° and my lob wedge is 58.5°. Even with the strong loft, as was previously stated back in 2014 by @David in FL, I don't care what the numbers on the clubs represent as long as my distance gap works for me.   

Edited March 16, 2019 by dennyjones