How to address a cheat (or call him out)

[Jeremie Boop]

My league is very liberal with the rules, even so I still play by the rules of golf. Sure my league handicap is higher than everyone else's because they roll their ball around, take drops when they go ob or don't find their ball. I wouldn't feel good about my score/handicap if I did all the things they allow. I've had them get upset with me for playing my ball as it lies before because "you don't need to play from there, move your ball so you have a shot" or some similar statement. My league plays for skins which  rarely get in because I don't have much chance to win them the way they play. I play in the league to spend time with my dad and that's it.

On a side note, I agree, I dare just about anyone to go up to these guys and tell them they aren't really playing golf. They'd probably get pretty upset. The thing is, they really aren't playing golf, but they'll never accept or admit to it.

Also, "just for fun" or "not serious" aren't legitimate excuses to not follow the rules. The only real excuse for not following the rules is if you are out just practicing *ie hitting extra balls from different distances or lies* and have no intention on using the score for handicap.

[mvmac]

In certain cases yes it does, your average 100 shooter when paired up with a scratch player is going to be very nervous. Now if you make him play by strict rules, not allowed to pick up, hitting a few off each T etc. etc. he is going to feel all eyes are on him and he is holding things up, which may or may not be true.

Who's to say that would more fun for the higher handicap? Maybe he would feel more awkward bumping his ball, taking mulligans, in front of other players. I know high handicappers that want to play by the same rules as the other players in the group, they don't want to be treated differently. A beginner who would shoot 150 is a different story but we're not talking about beginners.

I don't care what rules people play by, I just wanted to point out that the type of rules don't determine whether or not you can have fun playing golf.

[Dave2512]

Yeah it's not the rules that make golf difficult. Bad shots are bad shots. I play with a few mulligan, gimme putt, improved lie folks and despite their efforts to make it easier they still play bad golf. The crazy thing is just playing straight would probably produce a similar result.

What is worse I often see these folks doing things that make golf tougher than it should be. Attempting crazy shots and all sorts of madness. Just last week I caught a twosome chasing balls all over the course. After watching them finish a par 5 and standing around for a bit I knew they would ask me to play through on the next hole. It's a par 3 over water. But before I could finish the previous hole I heard the mayhem of them both hitting two balls each into the pond. This hole has a drop so no reason to do the tin cup thing. So I play through and finish the hole get in the cart and look back to wave thanks and there they are back on the tee hitting more balls. Of course they are on the back tees.

I don't get it golf is frustrating enough without self torture. But every time I see a cheat thread or any of the WTF threads I wonder why all these PITA struggling golfers don't move up. If golf is so hard you have to try and figure out a short cut to make it enjoyable you are too far back. Swallow your pride and play from a distance that gives you a shot to make some pars and the rest will fall in line.

[newtogolf]

Yeah it's not the rules that make golf difficult. Bad shots are bad shots. I play with a few mulligan, gimme putt, improved lie folks and despite their efforts to make it easier they still play bad golf. The crazy thing is just playing straight would probably produce a similar result.

What is worse I often see these folks doing things that make golf tougher than it should be. Attempting crazy shots and all sorts of madness. Just last week I caught a twosome chasing balls all over the course. After watching them finish a par 5 and standing around for a bit I knew they would ask me to play through on the next hole. It's a par 3 over water. But before I could finish the previous hole I heard the mayhem of them both hitting two balls each into the pond. This hole has a drop so no reason to do the tin cup thing. So I play through and finish the hole get in the cart and look back to wave thanks and there they are back on the tee hitting more balls. Of course they are on the back tees.

I don't get it golf is frustrating enough without self torture. But every time I see a cheat thread or any of the WTF threads I wonder why all these PITA struggling golfers don't move up. If golf is so hard you have to try and figure out a short cut to make it enjoyable you are too far back. Swallow your pride and play from a distance that gives you a shot to make some pars and the rest will fall in line.

I think they need to change the naming convention for tee boxes because too many golfers (male) seem to relate their level of manliness with the tee box they play from.  Last week at my home course my buddy and I got there late and were paired up with two members we'd never met.  We got to the first tee box and they asked which set of tees we wanted to play from, that they were good with white or blue.  We said, we usually play from the white but can play the blues if they prefer.  They were like no, we wanted to play from the white but didn't want to suggest them unless you did.

These guys were really nice guys but they couldn't drive the ball more than 200 yards, 180 was their average with roll out so I don't get why they would even suggest the blues.  If / when I consistently drive the ball 250+ yards I'll move back to the blues but for right now I'm happy to play the whites.

[Lihu]

I think they need to change the naming convention for tee boxes because too many golfers (male) seem to relate their level of manliness with the tee box they play from.  Last week at my home course my buddy and I got there late and were paired up with two members we'd never met.  We got to the first tee box and they asked which set of tees we wanted to play from, that they were good with white or blue.  We said, we usually play from the white but can play the blues if they prefer.  They were like no, we wanted to play from the white but didn't want to suggest them unless you did.

These guys were really nice guys but they couldn't drive the ball more than 200 yards, 180 was their average with roll out so I don't get why they would even suggest the blues.  If / when I consistently drive the ball 250+ yards I'll move back to the blues but for right now I'm happy to play the whites.

It makes sense to play the tips and the ladies (red) tees sometimes. This allows you to switch up the clubs you use. The course is played completely differently from either extreme, so it makes it fun and challenging. It's more important to find something fun and challenging, but not completely overwhelming.

You don't need to drive 250+ to enjoy the tips, it's just a different game with 100% scrambling from 40 to 100 yards.

I'm sure the golfers you played with could play this strategy on the blues.

[Elmer]

I think they need to change the naming convention for tee boxes because too many golfers (male) seem to relate their level of manliness with the tee box they play from.  Last week at my home course my buddy and I got there late and were paired up with two members we'd never met.  We got to the first tee box and they asked which set of tees we wanted to play from, that they were good with white or blue.  We said, we usually play from the white but can play the blues if they prefer.  They were like no, we wanted to play from the white but didn't want to suggest them unless you did.

These guys were really nice guys but they couldn't drive the ball more than 200 yards, 180 was their average with roll out so I don't get why they would even suggest the blues.  If / when I consistently drive the ball 250+ yards I'll move back to the blues but for right now I'm happy to play the whites.

The guy that runs our league tournaments is geeked up about playing from the blues (tips). Every tournamant he wants everyone going from the tips because that is where he plays from.

PGA recommends that a bogie or higher move up. We have a 30 guys who are 50+ years old and 5 of those guys are 65 and up. They barked about playing from the tips and the tournament chair just indicates "we are all playing from the tips and it is a all fair". atleast 5 guys took themselves out of prize contention and went and played from the whites (middle).

They had fun!

And that is what matters!

[Lihu]

The guy that runs our league tournaments is geeked up about playing from the blues (tips). Every tournamant he wants everyone going from the tips because that is where he plays from.

PGA recommends that a bogie or higher move up. We have a 30 guys who are 50+ years old and 5 of those guys are 65 and up. They barked about playing from the tips and the tournament chair just indicates "we are all playing from the tips and it is a all fair". atleast 5 guys took themselves out of prize contention and went and played from the whites (middle).

They had fun!

And that is what matters!

Surprised there are only that many. You have a pretty young club.

Why would anyone force an entire club to compete from the tips? The different flights should be playing different sets of tees.

No wonder why there are so many cheats in your club.

[Mindset]

My ex father in law got banned from his club years ago for cheating. I tried unsuccessfully to talk to him about it because like you I didn't want to mess up my personal relationship with him. This was way before smartphones though!!

Lets look positively.

1. The idea of the new golf scoring app - so you have to keep score - is excellent. Constant reinforcement of the correct scores can only help.

2. Insist your father marks his ball - its a rule of the game - buy him a marker for the next tournament.

3. If you feel he has miscounted just say " are you sure? Because I had you down for a ....."

If he still cheats then you have to say I can't play with you if you do this.

As an aside I can't believe people still let him in the league and win year after year - I would have had it out with him and if that didn't work just walk away and join another group!!

[Shorty]

For crying out loud - how hard is it?

You putt out and say "4" or whatever you had.

If the other person doesn't get the hint and reciprocate by announcing his score you say "6 right?" when they putt out.

If they say "No, 5", you count them out aloud. You say "Oh...I thought you left one in the bunker..." or " but it was three putts wasn't it?"

He'll get the message. You don't need apps or any technology

Alternatively, get a card and say "OK, 4 for me and 6 for you, right?"

Don't give them the opportunity to be sneaky - check scores after every hole.

[Zeph]

A cheater will be able to cheat until he get's called out on it, maybe repeatedly. No systems will prevent anyone from writing down an incorrect score or bumping the ball out from behind a tree. We (most of us) are grown people that should be able to address such cases.

[Lihu]

For crying out loud - how hard is it?

You putt out and say "4" or whatever you had.

If the other person doesn't get the hint and reciprocate by announcing his score you say "6 right?" when they putt out.

If they say "No, 5", you count them out aloud. You say "Oh...I thought you left one in the bunker..." or " but it was three putts wasn't it?"

He'll get the message. You don't need apps or any technology

Alternatively, get a card and say "OK, 4 for me and 6 for you, right?"

Don't give them the opportunity to be sneaky - check scores after every hole.

This is so true.

I don't think there's ever been a time this has not worked. One of my partners said he got a 6, then I asked him if he hit from a tree root, then he counts up again and answers with 8. Simple is good. Although, I don't always track other people strokes, unless I happen to be waiting on them.

[phan52]

We had two guys who were caught cheating in money card games and had enough of a sense of shame to withdraw from the Club, never to be seen again. One of them even moved cross country.

Another guy was recently caught cheating by his opponent in a Club Championship flight match and he is still haunting the place. I will never play with him and I don't know how we let him play in our tournaments, but he does. I would be mortified and could never show my face. But I wouldn't do what he did, so there's that.

[Bezatron]

I've never played in a competition where someone can mark their own card! Simply swapping cards like you're supposed to solves the problem. If everyone has to do it then no-one is singled out.

[Lihu]

I've never played in a competition where someone can mark their own card! Simply swapping cards like you're supposed to solves the problem. If everyone has to do it then no-one is singled out.

That seemed odd to me too, but maybe "beer leagues" do?

[Shorty]

I've never played in a competition where someone can mark their own card! Simply swapping cards like you're supposed to solves the problem. If everyone has to do it then no-one is singled out.

Yes. The idea of not swapping cards on the first tee or after the first hole sounds weird to me. Obviously its one of those things that cheats do.

I haven't marked my own card once in 40 years of playing golf.

[natureboy]

Unfortunate, frustrating situation. I would expect it leaves a bad feeling in the stomach to cheat constantly (in matches no less) just to claim a low score. I'd be ecstatic to shoot a legitimate 85. But I guess I am a 'talentless spaz'.

The everyone exchanging scorecards seems like the simplest solution. Maybe even stronger effect if the whole group has to sign off on each card (singles out the cheater and doesn't let him retaliate against one individual who calls him out). I was going to suggest a monitor on each hole doing tallys like in pro tournaments, but that takes a lot of volunteers.

As far as the officer situation, take it on the condition that they understand you will recuse yourself from decisions involving your father so as to avoid the appearance of impropriety either for or against. Or have they already allowed situations where officers make decisions affecting family members?

I have experienced another wrinkle on golf cheating. A few times I have been grouped with folks unknown to me who have rushed out ahead of me to help me 'find' my ball, and I find them standing over my ball (about 10 yards off line from where I saw it come down) and lo and behold right up against a tree trunk. The other night I am convinced the group ahead of me picked up my ball as they were leaving the green when I nearly (or did) hit an elevated green on a Par 5 in two. How do you deal with those situations in a non-competitive round where you are trying to keep score? Pathetic, isn't it?

[Elmer]

Yes. The idea of not swapping cards on the first tee or after the first hole sounds weird to me. Obviously its one of those things that cheats do.

I haven't marked my own card once in 40 years of playing golf.

During league matches we have 1 score card and 1 person keeps score for the 2 person match. However I tend to keep a score card for me with putts & stats etc....
I find that most times during my matches my opponent knows my score right as I drain a putt.

I find more people cheat during outings, when you are no longer keeping an eye on 1 opponent, but playing in a 4 some, against all 4. You are filling up from the keg at the turn and playing a 6 hour round because the group in front of you is slow.

Unfortunate, frustrating situation. I would expect it leaves a bad feeling in the stomach to cheat constantly (in matches no less) just to claim a low score. I'd be ecstatic to shoot a legitimate 85. But I guess I am a 'talentless spaz'.

The everyone exchanging scorecards seems like the simplest solution. Maybe even stronger effect if the whole group has to sign off on each card (singles out the cheater and doesn't let him retaliate against one individual who calls him out). I was going to suggest a monitor on each hole doing tallys like in pro tournaments, but that takes a lot of volunteers.

As far as the officer situation, take it on the condition that they understand you will recuse yourself from decisions involving your father so as to avoid the appearance of impropriety either for or against. Or have they already allowed situations where officers make decisions affecting family members?

I have experienced another wrinkle on golf cheating. A few times I have been grouped with folks unknown to me who have rushed out ahead of me to help me 'find' my ball, and I find them standing over my ball (about 10 yards off line from where I saw it come down) and lo and behold right up against a tree trunk. The other night I am convinced the group ahead of me picked up my ball as they were leaving the green when I nearly (or did) hit an elevated green on a Par 5 in two. How do you deal with those situations in a non-competitive round where you are trying to keep score? Pathetic, isn't it?

I have had this happen to me on more than one occasion. You hit a great shot, (in my case drive a green on a short par 4), get up to the spot where you are sure your ball should be and NOPE, not there.

I had a group of older women pick up my ball on a green on another fairway they threw it back off the green (only 5 yards back). I know I hit into them, but they were playing slow and doing everything a group should not be doing (IE: all driving to 1 ball).

Anyway if you get to a spot and your ball is not there, but your playing group is assured that someone else took it, the only proof you have is that the ball is lost.

It stings but you have to take a drop.

I believe the same goes just like hitting a perfect drive into the fairway, the entire group sees it roll into the fairway and out of sight. You all get to that spot and it is gone.
Could have plugged or fell in a hole, who knows. What we do know is you lost your ball.

I will concede the stroke, but not distance (mostly because If walk from the fairway all the way back to the tee, the current group on the tee would beat me and most likely not let me tee off again). This is pace of play and any of the courses around me would throw me off the course for walking all the way back to the tee from 260 yards to hit my 3rd shot

[rdsandy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

Once again, if I ever commit a murder I want you on my jury.

No kidding.

@Lihu, did you know the word "naive" is not in the dictionary?

Really? I didn't know that.