Peyton Manning the Greatest QB?

[Slice of Life]

Except for the wins!!!!   Winning is all the matters!

Football is a team sport.

Thanks for explaining why your post is irrelevant at the end there...

Again, by that measure, Trent Dilfer is a better QB than Tom Brady because his postseason winning % is higher.

[dsc123]

Except for the wins!!!!   Winning is all the matters!

Football is a team sport.  I find these GOAT arguments entertaining but really irrelevant.  I like watching the sport and the better players, but cheer for my team because it is my home town.  I like watching golf because I just like seeing great players play.

All time Wins--

1. Brett Favre

2. Peyton Manning

3. Tom Brady

8. Joe Montana

20.  Bart Starr

[Slice of Life]

This is why Peyton wins

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1603

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Except for the wins!!!!   Winning is all the matters!

Football is a team sport.  I find these GOAT arguments entertaining but really irrelevant.  I like watching the sport and the better players, but cheer for my team because it is my home town.  I like watching golf because I just like seeing great players play.

All time Wins--

1. Brett Favre

2. Peyton Manning

3. Tom Brady

8. Joe Montana

20.  Bart Starr

NFL starting quarterback playoff records

Quarterbacks Sorted by 1st - Most Wins 2nd - Fewest Losses 3rd - Most Championships

Rank	Quarterback	Games Started	Wins	Losses	Percent	Teams	Championship Season(s)	Ref
1	Tom Brady	26	18	8	.692	Patriots**	2001, 2003, 2004	[2]
2	Joe Montana †	23	16	7	.696	49ers** (14-5) Chiefs (2-2)	1981, 1984, 1988, 1989	[3]
3	Terry Bradshaw †	19	14	5	.737	Steelers**	1974, 1975, 1978, 1979	[4]
4	John Elway †	21	14	7	.667	Broncos**	1997, 1998	[5]
5	Brett Favre	24	13	11	.542	Packers † (12-10) Vikings (1-1)	1996	[6]
6	Troy Aikman †	15	11	4	.733	Cowboys**	1992, 1993, 1995	[7]
7	Roger Staubach †	17	11	6	.647	Cowboys**	1971, 1977
8	Peyton Manning	23	11	12	.478	Colts † (9-10) Broncos (2-2)	2006	[8]
9	Ben Roethlisberger	14	10	4	.714	Steelers**	2005, 2008	[9]
10	Bart Starr †	10	9	1	.900	Packers↑ Packers**	1961, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967 1966, 1967	[10]

This is like a tennis match!

Career Wins Sorted by winning %.

Rank	Quarterback	Seasons		Teams	Team Wins	Team Losses	Career Wins	Career Losses	Ties	Pct	Ref.	Updated thru
Quarterbacks Ranked by Regular Season Wins, then Winning Percentage
3	Tom Brady	2000–present		New England	153	45	153	45	0	.773	[5]	week 7
31	Roger Staubach	1969-1979		Dallas	85	29	85	29	0	.746	[33]
8	Joe Montana	1979-1992		San Francisco	100	39	117	47	0	.713	[10]
8	Joe Montana	1993-1994		Kansas City	17	8	117	47	0	.713	[10]
2	Peyton Manning	1998-2011		Indianapolis Colts	141	67	172	74	0	.699	[4]
2	Peyton Manning	2012–present		Denver	31	7	172	74	0	.699	[4]	week 7
10	Terry Bradshaw	1970-1983		Pittsburgh	107	51	107	51	0	.677	[12]
13	Ben Roethlisberger	2004–present		Pittsburgh	99	50	99	50	0	.664	[15]	week 7

[saevel25]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

NFL starting quarterback playoff records

Quarterbacks Sorted by 1st - Most Wins 2nd - Fewest Losses 3rd - Most Championships

This is like a tennis match!

Nope because it shouldn't even be discussed, Wins are only a team stat. To say only QB's get the luxury of having wins count as anything defeats the purpose of even having a team. If that was the case, then only the QB should get a Superbowl ring right?

Heck I could say that Adam Vinatieri was more important to the Patriots than Tom Brady.

Quote:

By the time Vinatieri finished his final season with the Patriots in 2005, he had kicked 18 game-winning field goals with less than one minute remaining, including the postseason.

Two times Adam Vinatieri kicked game winning field goals for the Patriots in the Super Bowl.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

NFL starting quarterback playoff records

Quarterbacks Sorted by 1st - Most Wins 2nd - Fewest Losses 3rd - Most Championships

This is like a tennis match!

Nope because it shouldn't even be discussed, Wins are only a team stat. To say only QB's get the luxury of having wins count as anything defeats the purpose of even having a team. If that was the case, then only the QB should get a Superbowl ring right?

Heck I could say that Adam Vinatieri was more important to the Patriots than Tom Brady.

Quote:

By the time Vinatieri finished his final season with the Patriots in 2005, he had kicked 18 game-winning field goals with less than one minute remaining, including the postseason.

Two times Adam Vinatieri kicked game winning field goals for the Patriots in the Super Bowl.

Ha Ha!  You're funny.  Do you even cheer for Denver???????  Peyton broke the TD record, but someone had to catch those TDs, correct???  And all those other passes.  And block so he didn't get flattened.  And play defense so he could get back on the field.  And call in the plays.......

[dsc123]

NFL starting quarterback playoff records

Quarterbacks Sorted by 1st - Most Wins 2nd - Fewest Losses 3rd - Most Championships

Nah, in tennis the rules are set before hand.  We don't agree on the rules, and even when I try to play by yours, you keep moving the net.

Once we move past discussing who is the better player and move into who played on the better teams, sure you can score some points.  Like regular season winning percentage-- even though your primary point in this discussion has been that the regular season doesn't matter.

Wait, doesn't this prove my point?  You agree that Peyton is better in the regular season, right?  Even though Tom Brady has a higher regular season winning percentage?  So winning percentage isn't the barometer of who is the better player.  Don't you have to agree with that?

But yes, Tom Brady has won many playoff games.  More than any other QB in history. Of course, he's also played in more than anybody else due to his team's regular season performance which, according to you, doesn't count for anything.  So if I accept your argument that only wins, and only the playoffs matter, then we should look at playoff win %'s, to avoid influence of the meaningless regular season, right?  Ok, so here it is the greatest QBs of all time, ranked according to your critera

T1 Frank Reich

T1 Glenn Presnell

T1 Irv Comp

T1 Paul Christman

.... ok we know where this is going.  So lets say you have to have at least played in 5 playoff games to count.

1. Bart Starr .900

T2. Sid Luckman .833

T2. Trent Dilfer

T4. Jim Plunkett .800

T4. Earl Morall

T4. Jeff Hostetler

T4 Russell Wilson

T8. Johnny Unitas .750

T8. Joe Theisman  .750

10. Terry Bradshaw .737

11. Troy Aikman .733

12. Eli Manning .727

T13. Ben Roethlisberger .714

T13. Mark Rypien

15. Joe Montana .696

T16. Kurt Warner .692

T16. Joe Flacco

T.16 Tom Brady

Peyton is way down the list, yes.  And if this were the be all end all, Trent Dilfer, Eli Manning and Ben Rothelisberger are better QBs than Tom Brady.  Or, perhaps, this isn't the best criteria to determine GOAT.  A factor?  Sure.  The most important factor?  Probably not.

What about super bowl winning % among those with multiple starts?  Because if playoffs are important, then super bowls are REALLY important.

T1 Montana, Bradsaw, Aikman, Starr, Plunkett, Eli Manning.

T6 Bob Griese, Ben Roethlisberger

8 Tom Brady

T14 Peyton Manning

Out of 19.

Again, I doubt you'd argue that Eli Manning, Big Ben, etc., are better than Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.

So looking at all the different ways you can slice it, its something like Peyton over Brady 15-3--a landslide--as the best of his generation.  To me, anyone who is the best of their generation is in the GOAT conversation, and its hard to really compare across eras.

And you could do the same with any stat, but the point is that Peyton is the top, or near the top of all of the important ones, and the knocks on him are always related to the factors that depend on his team more than his individual performance.  His mediocre win/loss record in the playoffs is literrally the ONLY knock on the guy, and its also the one that's most dependent on the rest of his team.  Meanwhile, he has played GREAT in the playoffs.   So its really not a valid critique of the guy.

[saevel25]

Ha Ha!  You're funny.  Do you even cheer for Denver???????  Peyton broke the TD record, but someone had to catch those TDs, correct???  And all those other passes.  And block so he didn't get flattened.  And play defense so he could get back on the field.  And call in the plays.......

Nope, not really a Denver fan. I don't see what is funny. I am not the one who is mislabeling a stat towards a QB and not a team.

I never said TD's were not attributed to a team play. Heck WR get the Receiving TD stat as well.

Yet why do people say "Winning-est QB". Why don't they say "Winning-est RB of all time", or "Winning-est O-line of all time". All winning has to do with anything is team play, nothing else.

[jamo]

Surprised no one has looked up the DVOA numbers (until I did a few minutes ago :-)). I'll see if I can sum them up later, but they're pretty close. Brady wins a few years, Manning wins a few years. Some years neither of them win.

[Slice of Life]

This is like a tennis match!

Sure, if a tennis match consists of one side serving a tennis ball, while the other throws a beach ball over the net.

Your argument is akin to saying Tiger Woods can't be considered one of the best ever because the US doesn't win as many Ryder Cups...

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

This is like a tennis match!

Sure, if a tennis match consists of one side serving a tennis ball, while the other throws a beach ball over the net.

Your argument is akin to saying Tiger Woods can't be considered one of the best ever because the US doesn't win as many Ryder Cups...

That is because you @saevel25 and @dsc123 keep using circular logic.  You serve the ball to the other court.  You're pathological hatred of Tom Brady has clouded your judgement. First only stats matter.  Then only wins.  Then stats again!  Then regular season, then playoffs.  Then total wins, then win %. Then back to stats.  I'm sure your favorite team's GM would give their left nut for either Brady or Manning.  I think they are both terrific QBs.  I am lucky that the team I cheer for has one of them.

[saevel25]

That is because you @saevel25  and @dsc123 keep using circular logic.  You serve the ball to the other court.  You're pathological hatred of Tom Brady has clouded your judgement.    First only stats matter.  Then only wins.  Then stats again!  Then regular season, then playoffs.  Then total wins, then win %. Then back to stats.  I'm sure your favorite team's GM would give their left nut for either Brady or Manning.  I think they are both terrific QBs.  I am lucky that the team I cheer for has one of them.

Nope, it isn't circular. I've made my point clear. Wins are a team stat only. I have not deviated from that position.

I never said I hated Tom Brady. Seems you think I do. I guess if you want to assume thinking Peyton is better than Brady means I hate Brady, then go ahead. But all that is an unfounded assumption. Though he did play for *ichigan, so that is already a strike on him .

I would say Tom Brady is the 2nd best QB in the past 15 years.

If I had to rank them

Peyton Manning

Tom Brady

Aaron Rodgers

Drew Brees

Still I wont overestimate Tom's abilities because he was lucky enough to be drafted by one of the Best Coaches of all time, and played on a more complete TEAM than Peyton has.

[dsc123]

This is like tennis, but that practice tennis where you just hit the ball against the wall and it comes right back to you. Do you not know what circular logic is or do you just not read anything that contradicts your opinions? You claimed Peyton did not perform in the playoffs. I showed stats proving that to be false. So you responded by claiming only wins matter, I disagree but showed you that Peyton has more wins than brady anyway. Then you responded with playoff wins being the reason why Peyton isn't the goat, and I showed why playoff wins do not reflect who the best player is. This is called "proving you wrong with facts" not "circular logic". That's why you keep responding by attacking the messenger with claims of bias. Of course our teams would love to have either. I compare manning to brady because brady is the 2nd best qb of his generation. Any team except peytons would love to have brady. Are you sure that it isn't you that is blinded by your love for the golden boy, finding it necessary to deny peytons greatness in the face of all these facts?

[Slice of Life]

That is because you @saevel25  and @dsc123 keep using circular logic.  You serve the ball to the other court.  You're pathological hatred of Tom Brady has clouded your judgement.    First only stats matter.  Then only wins.  Then stats again!  Then regular season, then playoffs.  Then total wins, then win %. Then back to stats.  I'm sure your favorite team's GM would give their left nut for either Brady or Manning.  I think they are both terrific QBs.  I am lucky that the team I cheer for has one of them.

Are you delusional? You're just making stuff up...no circular logic, and I don't hate Brady. He's a great QB.

I never said only wins matter, you did. And kept emphasizing. I also never differentiated regular season/playoffs...until YOU did.

Dude, re-read the thread because you're the only one with a bias, and the only one spinning in circles.

If we served the ball to the other court, it's because we got tired of you catching the ball, throwing it over the fence behind you, peeing in the corner, and then proclaiming victory...

[boogielicious]

I've re-read the thread and have come to the conclusion that we need more tennis analogies.  Manning is a great QB, but not the best ever.

[Slice of Life]

I've re-read the thread and have come to the conclusion that we need more tennis analogies.  Manning is a great QB, but not the best ever.

Yes he is. *drop shot*

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

I've re-read the thread and have come to the conclusion that we need more tennis analogies.  Manning is a great QB, but not the best ever.

Yes he is. *drop shot*

Fault!  Just missed getting that one in.

[Golfingdad]

Fault!  Just missed getting that one in.

Looked in from my angle.  Slice might want to challenge it.  See what Hawk-Eye has to say. ;)