Tiger May Play Phoenix Event to Kick Off 2015

[David in FL]

Restricting freedom of the players to do what they've always done is in itself a harm, so it shouldn't be done without good cause.

Yup.

As most know, I tend fall on the side of increased personal freedom with accountability and acceptance of personal responsibility for one's actions in light of those freedoms.

We've had similar discussions along these lines before, most often in the various "I broke a window with a golf ball, what should I do?" threads.  My position here is based on that particular, personal moral philosophy, so I'll forgo rehashing the arguments here.

The 16th at Phoenix is not golf, it's theater.  Everything contributes to it:  caddy races, drunk fans, wild cheering, booing bad shots, and players tossing stuff into the stands as they walk off the green.

Agree!

[Golfingdad]

@Golfingdad I think you are missing the point of @David in FL's objection.

You're looking at it from one side:  the issue at hand (throwing hats) is relatively inconsequential, so what's the harm if we rule it away?  I think David's point is that any rule which restricts people from doing what they want should be based on actual harm to others.  Restricting freedom of the players to do what they've always done is in itself a harm, so it shouldn't be done without good cause.

It is the PGA Tour's right to set the rules at their events, but it is a stupid rule.  The 16th at Phoenix is not golf, it's theater.  Everything contributes to it:  caddy races, drunk fans, wild cheering, booing bad shots, and players tossing stuff into the stands as they walk off the green.

It probably is the lawyers' fault.

I get that, and I'm simply asking him to consider the fact that perhaps this is exactly WHY they are making the restriction.  Why do they have to wait until AFTER somebody is actually harmed to make the restriction?

And I agree that it's theater.  But it isn't any less theatrical without the caddy races (which nobody is complaining about) and it's not going to be any less theatrical without the swag tossing.  It's only going to be marginally safer.

I would like for a player, hopefully a prominent play, to write "Or What" on the bottom of the poster in great big letters.

It is a PGA event, so unless they are breaking some golf rules and get penalized what is the Phoenix Open committee going to do if a player throws some swag - kick them off the course, have them arrested?

You're right.  I doubt the repercussions would be much of anything except maybe a small fine.  This is another reason why I'm so ambivalent about this - I don't even really see it as a "rule."  More as a courteous request.

I could easily see somebody like Bubba ignoring it.

[jamo]

For me, it's not about the caddy races or the throwing, but rather the continued need to try to legislate the fun out everything these days.....

For me, it's about the golf. Anything else, frankly, I don't have time to give an iota of thought to.

[k-troop]

For me, it's about the golf. Anything else, frankly, I don't have time to give an iota of thought to.

In concept I'd have to say I agree.  But then I was thinking about how the 16th at the Phoenix Open fits in to the world of Tour golf.

Let's say there are about 1,000 individual golf holes played in PGA Tour sanctioned events each year.  That's accounting for about 45 weeks per year, with some weeks hosting multiple events and some events featuring 2 or 3 golf courses.

The 16th at TPC Scottsdale is ONE of those 1,000 holes.  One hole out of 1,000 individual golf viewing venues where you can be the polar opposite of what's expected of a golf fan.  One hole where you can boo a bad shot, jeer a bad break, heckle a yipper, and make fun of Ian Poulter's pants.  One hole where the players and caddies can get a little nuts too, if they feel like it.

Why would the Tour want to change this?  How many on this forum can describe a single hole at TPC Deere Run or Waialae CC?  Many of us can probably visualize the 9th at TPC San Antonio, but only because of the disaster that occurred there via the medium of Kevin Na.

Has anyone ever watched the "skills challenge" or whatever it's called?  I remember exactly one moment from that event:  about a dozen years ago, the players were hitting to a protected green from about 130yds or so.  Mark McGuire turned to the crowd and started pumping them up, and as they cheered wildly he stuffed his wedge inside 2 feet.  It's a dumb event, but that moment was so unique and anti-golf that now anytime I'm channel-surfing and see that event on I stop and watch it for a while.

The Phoenix (yes, I know it's called Waste Management now) Open is like a Tier 3 tour stop at best (with majors being 1, WGCs and big events like Memorial & Bay Hill being 2).    I'd guess everyone on this thread and nearly everyone on this forum can visualize the 16th at TPC Scottsdale.  That hole, and the crazy shit that happens there, IS the Phoenix Open.  Without them this event would be the Disney, and no one would care.

All of that said, I'd love to cross-examine the plaintiff who wants to hold the PGA Tour liable for injuries he sustained in the grandstands on the 16th.  This plaintiff had no idea that the 16th wasn't your typical golf hole.  The fact that the 16th hole is a unique experience in all of golf (one in a thousand) had zero impact on the plaintiff's decision to purchase a ticket specifically for the grandstands.  Of the thousand or so holes the plaintiff could have watched, he just happened to end up in the grandstands at the 16th at the Phoenix Open.  This plaintiff wasn't drinking, cheering loudly, or otherwise contributing to the atmosphere at the 16th.  This plaintiff, despite paying five times the normal ticket price to be in those stands, didn't realize that the 16th would be "different".  He was unaware of the story surrounding one of the most famous holes in Tour golf.  And his injuries happened on Thursday, right?  Because surely if he came back on Friday then he must have known that the 16th is different, and assumed some of that risk.

And let's not forget this is "golf crazy" fans.  Drinking, cheering, booing, and catching visors??  STOP THE MADNESS BEFORE SOMEONE GETS HURT!!!  (And while we're at it, let's shut down the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, MLS....)

[iacas]

Why would the Tour want to change this?

How does prohibiting players from throwing things into the stands "change this"?

Do you honestly expect that everyone in the stands will behave this year like they're on the 16th hole at Augusta National? Of course you don't.

[k-troop]

How does prohibiting players from throwing things into the stands "change this"?

Do you honestly expect that everyone in the stands will behave this year like they're on the 16th hole at Augusta National? Of course you don't.

A single change doesn't necessarily change the entire character of the 16th hole.  However, incremental changes over time can, and will.  Last year they eliminated caddy races.  This year players can't throw visors into the crowd.  Next year they limit liquor sales (possibly).

I hate slippery slope arguments, so I won't dwell on this one.  But, again, if we accept that the 16th is different, then why change anything?  If the argument for the change is to reduce the risk of injury due to rowdiness and, as you posit, the change will not diminish rowdiness at all, then why implement the change?

Having a player toss a ball, visors, glove, towels, or any other memento into the crowd as they walk off the green will significantly change the experience for those individuals in the stands.  It won't impact the overall character of the hole, but it will change the experience for those fans.

Again, I'm in favor of letting the 16th be what it is.  If we're worried about injuries and liability (which I've already argued is neither factually or legally concerning), then they should simply change the 16th at TPC Scottsdale to the 16th at ANGC.  Which might, in fact, be the Tour's goal over time.

[iacas]

I hate slippery slope arguments, so I won't dwell on this one.

Then why give one?

But, again, if we accept that the 16th is different, then why change anything? If the argument for the change is to reduce the risk of injury due to rowdiness and, as you posit, the change will not diminish rowdiness at all, then why implement the change?

I haven't posited much of anything in this thread. I don't watch this tournament, really, and don't really know what's been going on lately.

If the change will stop a certain KIND of rowdiness (i.e. people leaping over others for a $20 hat or something), and THAT change will bring about more safety without disturbing the OTHER KINDS of "rowdiness," then I will say I do not have a problem with it at all.

Having a player toss a ball, visors, glove, towels, or any other memento into the crowd as they walk off the green will significantly change the experience for those individuals in the stands.

Huh? I disagree.

Like other people have said, it's like the blimp that drops coupons not coming around during a hockey game, or someone not getting "upgraded seats" at a baseball game after the first inning. The % of people who got those free hats (or the % of people who even cared about them) is likely incredibly small.

Again, I'm in favor of letting the 16th be what it is. If we're worried about injuries and liability (which I've already argued is neither factually or legally concerning), then they should simply change the 16th at TPC Scottsdale to the 16th at ANGC.  Which might, in fact, be the Tour's goal over time.

I missed that argument, but I'd have likely disagreed with it.

Heck, maybe it's a pace of play thing. Maybe the caddies complained about having to lug an extra 20 pounds around for 15+ holes, just so they could earn some extra recognition for the sponsors of their players .

And c'mon… you hate slippery slope arguments, and you conclude a long slippery slope argument with "which may be the Tour's goal over time"? C'mon… seriously.

[mvmac]

This year players can't throw visors into the crowd.  Next year they limit liquor sales (possibly).

Oh, I don't think that is going to happen

The 16th hole was popular before the pros started throwing things in the stands. The overall "party" atmosphere isn't going to change.

[Golfingdad]

Oh, I don't think that is going to happen ;-) The 16th hole was popular before the pros started throwing things in the stands. The overall "party" atmosphere isn't going to change.

Of course it won't. The only thing sillier than the idea that the atmosphere would change a single iota is the idea that the pga tour would want it to. If I'm not mistaken, it's far and away the highest attended tournament every year. Nobody wants to change that (and this won't).

[Ernest Jones]

Everyone in the stands should bring hats and throw them at the players. Ha Ha. That would surreal. Quick, someone start a twitter thingamajiggy.

[mvmac]

If I'm not mistaken, it's far and away the highest attended tournament every year.

Yes it is.

[InTheRough]

From what i've read on this the players are still allowed to hand things to fans or flip them into the first row, they just cant launch things into the stands where people will jump and scramble all over each other to get them.  It will still be a fun hole to watch even if we don't get to see Phil's QB skills again.

I would also like to venture a guess that Bubba was the one who wrote "are you kidding me" on the notice.  Seems like exactly what he would say when he first read the notice.

[colin007]

Huh? I disagree. Like other people have said, it's like the blimp that drops coupons not coming around during a hockey game, or someone not getting "upgraded seats" at a baseball game after the first inning. The % of people who got those free hats (or the % of people who even cared about them) is likely incredibly small.

I'm gonna disagree with you, Erik. It doesn't matter if you actually catch a free hat or t-shirt or towel. If it comes somewhat near you it's always fun. I attend games at a minor league baseball stadium nearby and I've never caught anything. I still stand and yell for them to throw it my way every time. You are clearly not the type that would camp out at the 16th. You can't really relate to getting nicely buzzed and baked out in the sun, hootin' n hollerin'. It's all part of the experience, that some people like.

[iacas]

I'm gonna disagree with you, Erik. It doesn't matter if you actually catch a free hat or t-shirt or towel. If it comes somewhat near you it's always fun. I attend games at a minor league baseball stadium nearby and I've never caught anything. I still stand and yell for them to throw it my way every time. You are clearly not the type that would camp out at the 16th. You can't really relate to getting nicely buzzed and baked out in the sun, hootin' n hollerin'. It's all part of the experience, that some people like.

Eh, if you say so. I don't even watch the thing, and most of the people are out taking a leak, buying beer or nachos, etc.

It's also a very, very, very small part of what a "fan" gets out of a hockey game. If it was taken away, you might not even notice.

[colin007]

Eh, if you say so. I don't even watch the thing, and most of the people are out taking a leak, buying beer or nachos, etc. It's also a very, very, very small part of what a "fan" gets out of a hockey game. If it was taken away, you might not even notice.

For an NHL game, I'd agree. For a minor league game, I think it would be more akin to the example I mentioned. The 16th at Phoenix is unique unto itself.

[Golfingdad]

I'm gonna disagree with you, Erik. It doesn't matter if you actually catch a free hat or t-shirt or towel. If it comes somewhat near you it's always fun. I attend games at a minor league baseball stadium nearby and I've never caught anything. I still stand and yell for them to throw it my way every time. You are clearly not the type that would camp out at the 16th. You can't really relate to getting nicely buzzed and baked out in the sun, hootin' n hollerin'. It's all part of the experience, that some people like.

Yeah but it's the kind of thing you only notice when it's hapoening to you. Except for perhaps the 12 people that caught shirts at last nights game, nobody else would even notice if they didn't throw any at tonight's game. I usually stand up when the wave comes around too, and me and the kids enjoy it, but if it didn't happen one game, we'd not even realize it. I agree that it is fun when the blimp comes near you but it's not not fun when it doesn't. Does that make sense?

[mvmac]

I'm gonna disagree with you, Erik. It doesn't matter if you actually catch a free hat or t-shirt or towel. If it comes somewhat near you it's always fun.

It may be fun for some but it's not what has made the 16th hole popular and not why it will continue to be an attraction.

[k-troop]

Then why give one?

And c'mon… you hate slippery slope arguments, and you conclude a long slippery slope argument with "which may be the Tour's goal over time"? C'mon… seriously.

Yes I hate slippery slope arguments.  I also hate the dentist, but I agree he is useful from time to time.  And it wasn't a long slippery slope argument.  The bulk of my argument is that this change is an ineffectual safeguard against a non-problem.  Has anyone here on the forum ever heard of any actual person getting seriously injured during a free hat free-for-all?  And, even if someone was injured, has anyone ever heard of anyone actually recovering damages from the sports venue?  So the most probable hypothesis is that the PGA Tour has put the kibosh on hat-tossing to pre-empt liability for injuries that have never actually happened and for which they wouldn't be liable anyway.  (If any sporting venue anywhere had ever been held liable for injuries resulting from the free t-shirt melee, you could rest assured that t-shirt cannons would swiftly and completely disappear from American sporting events.)

So, if liability isn't the Tour's real concern, then why make these incremental changes to the 16th?  That's where the utility of the slippery slope argument comes in.  Wondering what the Tour's real objective is, and where the changes to the 16th will stop.

Heck, maybe it's a pace of play thing. Maybe the caddies complained about having to lug an extra 20 pounds around for 15+ holes, just so they could earn some extra recognition for the sponsors of their players.

You don't have any more idea than I do about what the Tour's real concern is.  But, if you are willing to accept that it could be pace of play or player/caddy complaints, then you must also accept that the Tour might be trying to normalize the 16th through incremental changes.  Surely rowdy fans could affect pace of play for players who are spooked by a high-speed camera shutter.  Certainly it's more plausible that players and caddies would complain about a drunken mob booing them than they would about the players'/caddies' own voluntary behavior (aka carrying ten 2-lb visors around in the bag).

(BTW I don't know either, and I'm not even sure if I believe my own BS.  But Erik is the self-proclaimed logical wizard, so I get a little kick out of pointing out when your logic undercuts the conclusions of your own argument.)