Buyer's Remorse

[JonMA1]

I just put money down on a new set of Mizuno 850's and feel I did everything wrong.

The fitter measured the lie on this club and it was 2 degrees flat. He thinks he can only bend them 1 degree. I had tried these clubs out a week or so ago and liked the way they felt. As a contingency plan, I was intent on getting the forged version of these clubs if they were beyond modification. But when it came down to it,  I just couldn't justify spending that much on irons.

After hitting the forged and cast Mizunos along with a Calloway XHot (that had a better lie angle) in the indoor range, I thought the forged 850 felt the best. I didn't care for the Calloway at all. So he next had me hit into a simulator. Even though the forged club felt better, the results were better from the cast version. I even brought my current 6 iron in for comparison and the cast 850 was a bit better.

Still, I feel like I f'ed this up. Not because I didn't know better - saevel25 educated me about fitting in another thread - but because I didn't want to walk out of there without pulling the trigger. It will probably always bug me that I didn't hold out for better-fitted clubs.

In the end, this was a selfish move. I just wanted something new and shiny instead of focusing on something that would have really helped my game like... I don't know...  lessons?

Oh well, I will probably learn to like them and if not, one of the kids will get a nice Christmas gift next year.

[GolfLug]

I just put money down on a new set of Mizuno 850's and feel I did everything wrong.

The fitter measured the lie on this club and it was 2 degrees flat. He thinks he can only bend them 1 degree. I had tried these clubs out a week or so ago and liked the way they felt. As a contingency plan, I was intent on getting the forged version of these clubs if they were beyond modification. But when it came down to it,  I just couldn't justify spending that much on irons.

After hitting the forged and cast Mizunos along with a Calloway XHot (that had a better lie angle) in the indoor range, I thought the forged 850 felt the best. I didn't care for the Calloway at all. So he next had me hit into a simulator. Even though the forged club felt better, the results were better from the cast version. I even brought my current 6 iron in for comparison and the cast 850 was a bit better.

Still, I feel like I f'ed this up. Not because I didn't know better - saevel25 educated me about fitting in another thread - but because I didn't want to walk out of there without pulling the trigger. It will probably always bug me that I didn't hold out for better-fitted clubs.

In the end, this was a selfish move. I just wanted something new and shiny instead of focusing on something that would have really helped my game like... I don't know...  lessons?

Oh well, I will probably learn to like them and if not, one of the kids will get a nice Christmas gift next year.

Yup, don't be surprised if you have one more reversal and end up absolutely loving them after a few rounds anyway. I don't think you will remember the feel difference as much as you think. Happens all the time. Give it time.

Good luck. 850s not bad sticks at all.

[Tat14]

If you're 5'10", that 2 degree flat lie matches a static fit. At least it did for me with PING irons back in the day.

If I were in your shoes, I'd think about the story you explained above every time I addressed a ball with one of those irons. It's another one of my OCD traits. I'd have to refund, trade, or find a way to get happy about those clubs.

Good luck, and gifting is always nice.

[vangator]

If you're 5'10" and 2 degrees flat, do your knuckles drag on the ground when walking? :-) The most important measurement for lie is your arm length with respect to your height. Ping has some good charts on their fitting site.

[WUTiger]

I just put money down on a new set of Mizuno 850's and feel I did everything wrong.

The fitter measured the lie on this club and it was 2 degrees flat. He thinks he can only bend them 1 degree. ...

I just got off the phone with the Mizuno golf product reps. Here's the details on lie adjustment ranges for the irons you tested:

• JPX-850: 2° upright to 2° flat
• JPX-850 Forged: 5° upright to 3° flat

Also, please clarify: Do you need normal lie clubs, or clubs 2° flat? Either way, get what you need from the factory on new model clubs like the JPX-850.

Also, hit some balls with the clubs. You want to hit the clubs with sole tape to determine what lie angle you need on a full swing. Static lie angle doesn't tell you much. Also, Muzuno fittings capture toe down data, among other things. Toe down indicates how much the club shaft flexes downward on impact, which would give you your dynamic lie angle.

Did this fitter give you the full six-point Mizuno fitting? If he's sellling $800 iron sets, hopefully he's more precise than "I think 1 degree..."

Since you're getting new irons, the fitter in the store should have Muzuno make lie adjustments in the factory. You shouldn't have to pay any extra for this on new clubs.

[JonMA1]

I just got off the phone with the Mizuno golf product reps. Here's the details on lie adjustment ranges for the irons you tested:

JPX-850: 2° upright to 2° flat

JPX-850 Forged: 5° upright to 3° flat

Also, please clarify: Do you need normal lie clubs, or clubs 2° flat? Either way, get what you need from the factory on new model clubs like the JPX-850.

Also, hit some balls with the clubs. You want to hit the clubs with sole tape to determine what lie angle you need on a full swing. Static lie angle doesn't tell you much. Also, Muzuno fittings capture toe down data, among other things. Toe down indicates how much the club shaft flexes downward on impact, which would give you your dynamic lie angle.

Did this fitter give you the full six-point Mizuno fitting? If he's sellling $800 iron sets, hopefully he's more precise than "I think 1 degree..."

Since you're getting new irons, the fitter in the store should have Muzuno make lie adjustments in the factory. You shouldn't have to pay any extra for this on new clubs.

The clubs I purchased were discounted because he had them in stock. In retrospect, the $100 would have been worth the piece of mind.

The lie angle was measured with impact tape (stickers) and indicated the toe was down almost 2 degrees from flat at impact on some of my full swings. At 5'6", I would have thought the opposite would have been the case. These new clubs are more upright than my current set.

I had the option of paying more and getting them from the factory at a better lie. I was armed with information I just made an impulsive decision. Like I said, this is on me - I messed up.

[irishmike27]

If you just placed the order, I have to believe it's worth a phone call at least to see if you can change it. Explain your thoughts and I'd say there's a shot you could go back and redo the fitting. Mizuno irons are great, but with all the indecision you are talking about, I think you'd always be questioning the purchase.

[Hardballs]

You could always shorten the club half inch to bring the lie angle down? At 5'6" you may find this is the perfect solution, the correct lie and an easier to hit club! Your welcome!

[billchao]

The lie angle was measured with impact tape (stickers) and indicated the toe was down almost 2 degrees from flat at impact on some of my full swings. At 5'6", I would have thought the opposite would have been the case. These new clubs are more upright than my current set.

Lie board fittings aren't that great. Go with the sharpie test.

Also, your new clubs are too flat for you but more upright than your current clubs? How do your current clubs fit you?

[JonMA1]

If you just placed the order, I have to believe it's worth a phone call at least to see if you can change it. Explain your thoughts and I'd say there's a shot you could go back and redo the fitting. Mizuno irons are great, but with all the indecision you are talking about, I think you'd always be questioning the purchase.

I agree. I am going to see what this guy can or is willing to do. At this point, I'd pay the $100 (the amount the clubs were discounted) to get the clubs fitted correctly. That was the point of this entire exercise. Worse case scenario when all is said and done  - I still suck at golf. Not the end of the world. Thank you for the suggestion.

You could always shorten the club half inch to bring the lie angle down? At 5'6" you may find this is the perfect solution, the correct lie and an easier to hit club!

Your welcome!

If the toe is too low at impact (lie angle is too flat), how would shortening the shaft fix that? Although it seems reasonable that someone who is shorter would be closer to the ground, especially if...

If you're 5'10" and 2 degrees flat, do your knuckles drag on the ground when walking?  The most important measurement for lie is your arm length with respect to your height. Ping has some good charts on their fitting site.

or unless the opposite is true as in my case, one has t-rex like arms.

Seriously, thanks for the suggestion. I'll ask the fitter about it.

Lie board fittings aren't that great. Go with the sharpie test.

Also, your new clubs are too flat for you but more upright than your current clubs? How do your current clubs fit you?

When I did the sharpie test last year, my current set passed with flying colors. The short line on the club face seemed very much vertical or perpendicular the the grooves.

[BeCu]

Would be nice if the seller could work something out with Mizuno if he can't tweak the irons to your properly fitted specs.....

With that said, I am a little confused after reading some of the posts.

1. Were you 2 degrees flat at impact with your old clubs or just with the new clubs?

2. Were the old irons of yours the same length as the new irons? (you referenced a #6 iron, I was just curious if new/old were same length but different lie angles?)

IF you shorten the playing length of a club the lie angle goes up.

[Hardballs]

Ignore my previous post, I thought you wanted to flatten the lie angle as you said in the op, it was only later I read you were hitting it toe down, I've now actually no idea what's happening to you, but will just say that shortening the club will effectively flatten, (toe down) the lie angle! Think about yourself at address, now slide the club closer to you, you will find the toe end flattens!

[JonMA1]

Would be nice if the seller could work something out with Mizuno if he can't tweak the irons to your properly fitted specs.....

With that said, I am a little confused after reading some of the posts.

1. Were you 2 degrees flat at impact with your old clubs or just with the new clubs?

2. Were the old irons of yours the same length as the new irons? (you referenced a #6 iron, I was just curious if new/old were same length but different lie angles?)

IF you shorten the playing length of a club the lie angle goes up.

I apologize for my lack of understanding and communication. I tried to do a little research before posting but I may have failed to grasp the concept of lie angle (the manufacturers specs, not the lie board test).

Here are the specs:

New clubs are Mizunos JPX 850. I assume this set are standard length and lie.

From Mizuno website... 6iron: Length: 37.25, Lie: 61 degrees

Old clubs are Adams A4r. When purchased used, I was told they were standard length and lie

From Adams website... 6iron: Length: 37.875, Lie: 61.5 degrees

When measured by the fitter with a lie board, several full swings with the Mizuno indicated the the toe made impact at between 1 and 2 degrees down (what I thought was referred to as too flat).

Ignore my previous post, I thought you wanted to flatten the lie angle as you said in the op, it was only later I read you were hitting it toe down, I've now actually no idea what's happening to you, but will just say that shortening the club will effectively flatten, (toe down) the lie angle! Think about yourself at address, now slide the club closer to you, you will find the toe end flattens!

Sorry about the confusion on my part.

[BeCu]

Ok I understand a little better. Sounds like you and the club fitter are on the way to discovering which irons will compliment your swing. Good luck.

[JonMA1]

I picked up the irons today, brought them home after work and took them to my workshop to hit into the net. Any regrets I had about buying these lasted about 8-10 swings.

First, I want to give the fitter more credit than I did in my initial post. He ended up bending the loft on these 1 degree and he felt that was as much as he could (I checked with Mizuno and as WUTiger stated, the cast clubs could be bent 2 degrees but I'm good with what he did).

In my defense, I was going by this http://www.mizunousa.com/golf/custom-irons as far what a certified Mizuno fitter would do. I assumed some of this would be BS - it's marketing after all. But I thought there would be a bit more data collected.

Here's how the whole experience went down:

1. Walked in a couple of weeks ago to see if he had a JPX 825 set which he didn't. Instead, he had me hit the JPX 850's and the JPX EZ set. I immediately liked the 850's. This is important - I didn't want to be the guy who tries out clubs at a local shop and buys them online through someone else. I don't think that's cool. Initially, I wanted to go through Golfsmith but I decided to support the local shop instead.

2. So I went back Tuesday for the "fitting". He had me swing a few different clubs but I think my heart was already set on the 850's. The lie board test went as posted above. He then had me try the 850 forged knowing he could easily bend those the 2 degrees. I really liked these clubs and they felt better than the cast, but when I hit the clubs in the simulator, the forged dispersement was quite a bit wider even on the shots that felt really good. That combined with the price brought me back to the cast 850's. He discounted the cast clubs and would have discounted the forged a bit more.

3. He stated that with my swing speed, regular flex shafts would be good - no surprise there. We did go over the some of the simulator data. I was hitting the 6 iron demo club at about 20 - 22 degree loft - which he said was good. My distances were just a bit longer than my old 6iron, 150 - 155 with the longest shot hitting 175 (simulator yardage).

4. There weren't any static measurements like distance from my wrists to the floor. I brought up grip size and he seemed to think the standard grips would be fine even though he didn't take my hand measurements.

After picking them up today and talking to him, I don't think he's lazy or indifferent about fitting clubs, I think maybe he's just old school. He adjusted the lie as much as he felt he could on clubs I wanted. He felt the shafts were a good fit (True Temper XP 105 R300) and thought the length was good. He told me if I needed them trimmed he would do that. I still think the grips can be smaller but I'm not a club fitter so what do I know?

I taped the bottom of the sole tonight, hit a ball off a piece of rubber and the black mark was much more centered. I was hitting a bit more towards the heel but was able to make adjustments and started hitting the sweet spot. I still cannot open the club face even a little bit without hitting a weak push, but that's with any club - almost certainly a swing flaw.

Overall, this was a good learning experience. $700 is a lot of money for me to spend as it is for anyone. I don't think these clubs well improve my game very much if at all. But as is the case with any hobby, it's nice to have quality equipment.

[newtogolf]

I have the JPX 825's and thought they were great clubs, the 850's look to be just as good if not better.  This year I'm going to pick up the JPX 850 forged to leave at my club and use the 825's when I'm playing away courses.

I think you'll see a big difference in the 825's compared to your Adams, enjoy them!!

[JonMA1]

I have the JPX 825's and thought they were great clubs, the 850's look to be just as good if not better.  This year I'm going to pick up the JPX 850 forged to leave at my club and use the 825's when I'm playing away courses.

I think you'll see a big difference in the 825's compared to your Adams, enjoy them!!

I did end up with the 850's, and yes, they are easier clubs to hit.

I thought the Adams A4's were GI, but the Mizunos have a thicker top line and sole as do the Titleist AP1's and some of the other the higher-end game improvement clubs. But I've decided that I need the extra help. I'll hang on to the other sets I have if for no other reason, just for some variety.

I hope you like the JPX 850 forged - I was drooling over that set. They are really nice looking clubs and quite a bit different side-by-side to the cast version.

[JonMA1]

Finally got out and hit the new irons into the field this week. I'd taken them to the simulator a couple of times but it's hard for me to translate the numbers displayed into ball flight. Hitting outside gives me a better idea of what I'll see on the course. My swing is a bit different than it was last year, so some of what I'm seeing might not be the clubs.

Gap Wedge: Not very many mishits. There was some variance in distances but my shot zone seemed a lot tighter left and right. Overall, longer distances, greater height and what feels like more control when trying to throttle back. Even hit a pretty good flop shot with it. I feel like if I'm going to miss a green, there's more of a chance it'll be due to hitting over it than chunking or topping a shot with this club... we'll see.

6 iron: More distance and lower trajectory. These clubs were suppose to launch higher but that had nothing to do with my decision to buy them. I'm happy with the results from a good swing. I wasn't hitting consistently until I slowed my tempo down and made a full shoulder turn, then I started hitting very straight shots with good distances.

5 iron: Pretty much the same as the 6 iron as far as trajectory and distance. Minimum of 10 yards over how I hit my Adams 5i last time I swung it. I still hit some stinkers out there but again, when I concentrated on making a good swing (instead of trying to hit harder), I got better results.

It's kind of early to know, but I think I'll like these clubs on the course. Overall, I'm glad I bought them. I think they will provide a little bit more distance and forgiveness. Obviously, improving my swing is the real key. But if I can feel better about my equipment it's one less thing for me to "blame".