PGA Tour Caddies file class-action suit against PGA Tour for use of likeness, bibs

[Shindig]

Huh, didn't even get an unreasonably friendly judge for their "case" in California.  

[newtogolf]

It's a legal game, the caddies lawyer is likely working for a percentage of settlement or award while the PGA Tour is racking up huge legal fees that they have to pay.  It costs nothing for the caddies lawyer to keep appealing until the PGA Tour is willing to settle and make it all go away.

The legal system doesn't work because we don't penalize frivolous lawsuits.

[Coronagolfman]

" .... claim the PGA Tour treats them as second-class citizens to players ..."

Kind of accurately sums up the role of a caddie, doesn't it?  Without the player the caddies would have to pay to get their way on the course.

Look - we know a good caddie does help the player make decisions and is a companion to the player on the course - but at the end of the day it's kind of like a jockey on a racehorse - no horse no ride.

The funny thing is that caddies that are associated with a destination resort like Pebble Beach or Bandon Dunes may get much more respect than PGA tour caddies because those resort caddies must represent their employer in a positive way as well as help their customers (the resort players) have a great experience - a PGA tour caddie may just tote the bag, rake the traps and hand the requested club to their player and still make a nice paycheck without doing much more if the player only looks for that kind of assistance.

Bottom line it really is more a case of what the relationship between the player and caddie is in terms of the respect or financial benefits the caddie gets.  And with some semblence of nationalized health care coverage now caddies are probably better off then before in that area.

And if wearing a bib is required by the job, then so be it.

 

[Pretzel]

It's just funny to me since the PGA Tour isn't their employer. The golfers are, so every case they file against the PGA will be tossed out immediately on that grounds alone. 

The players require caddies to wear bibs since the players are fined if they don't. The PGA has nothing to do with the transaction besides providing a uniform for the caddy with the entrance fee. 

[Ernest Jones]

10 hours ago, Pretzel said:

It's just funny to me since the PGA Tour isn't their employer. The golfers are, so every case they file against the PGA will be tossed out immediately on that grounds alone. 

The players require caddies to wear bibs since the players are fined if they don't. The PGA has nothing to do with the transaction besides providing a uniform for the caddy with the entrance fee. 

Can the PGA Tour fine or otherwise directly penalize or discipline caddies or is it always done indirectly through fines to the player? Depending on how that is answered, there may be an argument to be made that the players and the Tour are in a dual employer scenario. Similar to some recent rulings involving the employer-employee relationship between franchises, their employees and the mother company. 

[Pretzel]

7 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

Can the PGA Tour fine or otherwise directly penalize or discipline caddies or is it always done indirectly through fines to the player? Depending on how that is answered, there may be an argument to be made that the players and the Tour are in a dual employer scenario. Similar to some recent rulings involving the employer-employee relationship between franchises, their employees and the mother company. 

The tour doesn't fine the caddies in any way, they just fine the player because the player didn't follow the stipulated rules of the tournament. The player can fine the caddy because the player employs him, the PGA does nothing with the caddies besides provide the players with uniforms for them to wear.

[Ernest Jones]

2 hours ago, Pretzel said:

The tour doesn't fine the caddies in any way, they just fine the player because the player didn't follow the stipulated rules of the tournament. The player can fine the caddy because the player employs him, the PGA does nothing with the caddies besides provide the players with uniforms for them to wear.

Then a dual employer status ruling is doubtful. 

[iacas]

http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/14727790/caddie-confidential-talking-lawsuits-riviera-optical-illusion-northern-trust-open

Quote

Collins: For the caddies, what's the most difficult aspect of this situation?
Caddie: The most difficult part is the distraction. It's a distraction because it takes us away from what we're trying to accomplish out there, and that's work for our pros.

That's right, you're working for your pros, not for the PGA Tour.

Quote

Collins: When the caddie lawsuit is in the headlines, does it cause uncomfortable situations on the course? Does it leave you wondering what the pro might be hearing from the tour?
Caddie: Um, yeah, you always wonder because there's always three sides to any story. The caddies' hardest part is getting their story out, the truth. The thing you actually worry about is whether the truth is getting to the pros. Or just what the tour is telling them.

Uhm, so tell your player. They're your employer, after all.

Quote

Collins: If all the caddies one week collectively said, "We are not wearing the bibs," what do you think would happen?
Caddie: I think it would be an eye-opener for the pros. Don't you? I think it would be an eye-opener for the PGA Tour as well. It would be a huge statement. I think over the past two-and-a-half years, they have seen that the caddies have started to stand together more than they have in the past. ... You know how hard it is to herd cats?

Ha ha ha! I'd love to see that, because I think the caddies would get a bit of a comeuppance there.

---

If the caddies honestly think they're being defrauded here, or being "used" or whatever, then… they should demand higher pay from their actual employers, the players.

The PGA Tour does not hire or fire the caddies. They do not pay for them. They kindly provide food and shelter for them, and ask that they wear a bib with the name sponsor's name (and their employers name) on it.

It's ridiculous. You carry bags. Yes, you do a bit more than that, but if you're not being paid enough for your time, ask your employer for more money.

---

Now, there are other parts about regulations re: orange shoes and things that may be a fair point, and they bring up that the PGA Tour has regulations for caddies… but ultimately, the PGA Tour is not their employer, and is well within their rights to govern how a caddie can be dressed (and behave) should a member of the PGA Tour (their player) choose to employ them.

[Pretzel]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

Ha ha ha! I'd love to see that, because I think the caddies would get a bit of a comeuppance there.

I, too, would like to see that. You'd probably see all the caddies except for those caddying for major players (likely with the exception of Steve Williams) not wearing bibs and getting replaced by a crowd of people willing to wear the bibs and even take less pay than the previous caddies were going to take for the week (perhaps even for free, if all they need to do is carry the bag around and tell the player where the marked yardages are). I don't think the caddies fully understand how replaceable many of them are.

Some players and caddies have a close relationship, like Jordan Spieth and his caddy seem to (but even Greller recently has been temporarily replaced by Spieth's agent due to injury), but I feel like most of them are there mostly to carry and clean the clubs while pointing out yardages. Not something too difficult to do for a spectator who's interested enough in golf to buy a ticket to go see the tournament.

[onthehunt526]

What if: The Tour just gave the caddies a universal bib that just says: PGA TOUR?

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

What if: The Tour just gave the caddies a universal bib that just says: PGA TOUR?

Why would they? So the tournament sponsor would donate less money, the purse would go down, and the caddies would make less money?

[onthehunt526]

Just now, iacas said:

Why would they? So the tournament sponsor would donate less money, the purse would go down, and the caddies would make less money?

True, That's why they don't... it's definitely a dollars and cents game... Honestly, though they complain and a lot of the caddies for the higher ranked players, make more money in a week than I do in 4 years... 

I see where they are coming from, but Erik your point is exactly why this class action lawsuit makes no sense.  Without sponsors, the purses on tour would be smaller and the caddies would make less money, because the pros make less money...

indirectly, the sponsors are already paying the caddies, but, of course, the caddies don't see it that way.

[ev780]

If the caddies are treated in real life anywhere close to the way they are treated on this forum they should unionize and change the rules of the game. That will get their attention!

This coming from a guy that is very much against most unions.  

[newtogolf]

4 minutes ago, ev780 said:

If the caddies are treated in real life anywhere close to the way they are treated on this forum they should unionize and change the rules of the game. That will get their attention!

This coming from a guy that is very much against most unions.  

Each caddies value is based on their importance to the golfer they work for, they bring little or no value directly to the PGA Tour.  Unionizing would impact their relationship with their pro and have no bearing on the Tour unless they were dumb enough to strike.  

[ev780]

4 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Each caddies value is based on their importance to the golfer they work for, they bring little or no value directly to the PGA Tour.  Unionizing would impact their relationship with their pro and have no bearing on the Tour unless they were dumb enough to strike.  

Except for one thing.  The players ARE the Tour!

[Shindig]

2 hours ago, newtogolf said:

Each caddies value is based on their importance to the golfer they work for, they bring little or no value directly to the PGA Tour.  Unionizing would impact their relationship with their pro and have no bearing on the Tour unless they were dumb enough to strike.  

Do independent contractors even have the option of striking?

[ev780]

18 hours ago, Shindig said:

Do independent contractors even have the option of striking?

Of course. I could go on strike right now. I think my boss would just hand me my last check and tell me to enjoy my strike. 

 

[Pretzel]

19 hours ago, Shindig said:

Do independent contractors even have the option of striking?

They do.

Their employers also have the option of just grabbing a different independent contractor of the many available in the gallery who is willing to do the same job without filing frivolous lawsuits, and probably for less pay to boot.