The Tiger Woods/PED Thread

[Scotsclaff]

I don't believe any pro golfer has taken steroids or whatever you want to call them.

God forbid!

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The point is that there is NO evidence.  There is innuendo and supposition.  This is what you base your opinion on, and it's purely opinion, based purely on you personal bias, and relatively uninformed since there is nothing that you've said that could possibly lead to an indictment.  Your view is based on nothing but personal prejudice.

Personal prejudice? Interesting... I don't want to get off topic so I'm not going to address how silly this is.. If that's all your going to answer with then I think your position is purely based on your love for him and your choice to ignore all that was mentioned.. See how silly that sounds?

My opinion is based on the COINCIDENCE that he had personal treatments with a well known PED dispenser.. Where is the prejudice there?? I didn't tell Tiger to go to the doctor, and spare me the there aren't any other doctors theory.. It's not like I the first one to bring about these questions about Tiger.. It isn't like it was public information that he was seeing this doctor either، it was being kept a secret IIRC. Not anymore

Obviously we are all going around in circles and everyone is taking their turn accusing me of hating tiger, personal prejudice and making questionable posts in the past. So, I'll just bow out since the discussion is centered more towards me than the issue.

Eyad,

Your argument is very tiring.  You repeat the same innuendo over and over again.  I guarantee that some time in your life you have met with someone who has done criminal activity.  Does this then make you a criminal?  I was a cub scout when I was young. Four guys that were in my pack when to jail when they were adults.  Four!  Does that make me a criminal? You've been around or went to college with someone who smoked dope.  Does that make you a doper?  You are starting to sound like one of those "birther" conspiracy theorists or the ones that claim Pres. GW intentionally did 911.

Tigers treatments were well documented and publicized as a valid treatment for what ailed him.  This Doctor was an expert at those treatments.  You're "guilty until proven innocent" approach is a dangerous way to look at things.

[newtogolf]

Personal prejudice? Interesting... I don't want to get off topic so I'm not going to address how silly this is.. If that's all your going to answer with then I think your position is purely based on your love for him and your choice to ignore all that was mentioned.. See how silly that sounds?

My opinion is based on the fact that he had personal treatments with a well known PED dispenser.. Where is the prejudice there?? I didn't tell Tiger to go to the doctor, and spare me the there aren't any other doctors theory.. It's not like I the first one to bring about these questions about Tiger.. It isn't like it was public information that he was seeing this doctor either، it was being kept a secret IIRC. Not anymore

Obviously we are all going around in circles and everyone is taking their turn accusing me of hating tiger, personal prejudice and making questionable posts in the past. So, I'll just bow out since the discussion is centered more towards me than the issue.

My doctor has prescribed PED's does that automatically mean I'm a PED's user because he's been my doctor for the last 10 years?  I hung out with people in H.S. that used and dealt drugs, but I've never once tried drugs in my life.  Using your logic I should be in jail.

You keep bringing up a piece of very circumstantial evidence that Tiger had meetings with Galea and using that to conclude Tiger is a PED's user.

Your posts lead us to believe you dislike Tiger because only someone that didn't like Tiger would try and taint his career and accomplishments by using a weak piece of circumstantial evidence.   This is about you because you're the one stating opinion as near fact, using statements like "the truth will come out" which means that you "know" Tiger is a PED's user and the rest of us will soon find out, when in reality you "know" nothing about Tiger other than what you've read.

[Abu3baid]

Eyad, Your argument is very tiring.  You repeat the same innuendo over and over again.  I guarantee that some time in your life you have met with someone who has done criminal activity.  Does this then make you a criminal?  I was a cub scout when I was young. Four guys that were in my pack when to jail when they were adults.  Four!  Does that make me a criminal? You've been around or went to college with someone who smoked dope.  Does that make you a doper?  You are starting to sound like one of those "birther" conspiracy theorists or the ones that claim Pres. GW intentionally did 911. Tigers treatments were well documented and publicized as a valid treatment for what ailed him.  This Doctor was an expert at those treatments.  You're "guilty until proven innocent" approach is a dangerous way to look at things.

Obviously I'm going to keep saying the same thing since it is my argument.. And others defending woods keep saying the same thing as well.. I hadn't planned on responding, but your examples are off base.. If it was found that I was in the room while these criminals were planning their crime then yes others have a right to consider me a criminal, and if I was with the dopers when they were doping in multiple occasions then I am guilty of either doping or being stupid enough to put my self in the circle of suspicion.. I'm not sure why you guys aren't able to differentiate between the scenarios people put and the one we have here.. There is a difference between I'm not guilty because I know a guys name, and I'm possibly guilty because I go to this drug dealers house every other day. The extent of tigers treatment were not well known and documented as you stated, the extent was exposed in Blood Sport and that is wha started this thread. It isn't like we rehashed old stuff and started making stuff up, it was discovered that the extent of it was beyond what anyone thought.. To the point that Haney denied knowing anything about the treatments until he was pushed and finally said he was at 3 or 4 and he saw nothing, the funny thing is there were dozens of treatments and not the minimum treatments initially publicized in the NYT before blood sport came out that included the Florida health investigation not previously reported. Anyway, I only responded to clarify those things above and to say I'm not a "birther" or what ever it is you said I'm starting to sound like. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Eyad,

Your argument is very tiring.  You repeat the same innuendo over and over again.  I guarantee that some time in your life you have met with someone who has done criminal activity.  Does this then make you a criminal?  I was a cub scout when I was young. Four guys that were in my pack when to jail when they were adults.  Four!  Does that make me a criminal? You've been around or went to college with someone who smoked dope.  Does that make you a doper?  You are starting to sound like one of those "birther" conspiracy theorists or the ones that claim Pres. GW intentionally did 911.

Tigers treatments were well documented and publicized as a valid treatment for what ailed him.  This Doctor was an expert at those treatments.  You're "guilty until proven innocent" approach is a dangerous way to look at things.

Obviously I'm going to keep saying the same thing since it is my argument.. And others defending woods keep saying the same thing as well.. I hadn't planned on responding, but your examples are off base..

If it was found that I was in the room while these criminals were planning their crime then yes others have a right to consider me a criminal, and if I was with the dopers when they were doping in multiple occasions then I am guilty of either doping or being stupid enough to put my self in the circle of suspicion.. I'm not sure why you guys aren't able to differentiate between the scenarios people put and the one we have here.. There is a difference between I'm not guilty because I know a guys name, and I'm possibly guilty because I go to this drug dealers house every other day.

The extent of tigers treatment were not well known and documented as you stated, the extent was exposed in Blood Sport and that is wha started this thread. It isn't like we rehashed old stuff and started making stuff up, it was discovered that the extent of it was beyond what anyone thought.. To the point that Haney denied knowing anything about the treatments until he was pushed and finally said he was at 3 or 4 and he saw nothing, the funny thing is there were dozens of treatments and not the minimum treatments initially publicized in the NYT before blood sport came out that included the Florida health investigation not previously reported.

Anyway, I only responded to clarify those things above and to say I'm not a "birther" or what ever it is you said I'm starting to sound like. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Quick Google Search

http://www.reflexportland.com/prp-therapy-helped-tiger-woods/

The difference Eyad is that your "evidence" is not evidence but only associative circumstance.  You hear what you want to hear and that is all.

[Ernest Jones]

Obviously I'm going to keep saying the same thing since it is my argument.

That's a poor way to go about life. You should read "Green Eggs and Ham".

[Abu3baid]

My doctor has prescribed PED's does that automatically mean I'm a PED's user because he's been my doctor for the last 10 years?  I hung out with people in H.S. that used and dealt drugs, but I've never once tried drugs in my life.  Using your logic I should be in jail.  You keep bringing up a piece of very circumstantial evidence that Tiger had meetings with Galea and using that to conclude Tiger is a PED's user. Your posts lead us to believe you dislike Tiger because only someone that didn't like Tiger would try and taint his career and accomplishments by using a weak piece of circumstantial evidence.   This is about you because you're the one stating opinion as near fact, using statements like "the truth will come out" which means that you "know" Tiger is a PED's user and the rest of us will soon find out, when in reality you "know" nothing about Tiger other than what you've read.

If it was Tiger woods doctor it would have never become a story, plus the fact that nobody knew the extent of the sheer number of visits and the secrecy around it makes it suspicious. Their is nothing suspicious about you going to your doctor. If I was with you back then and I always saw you hanging around the drug users and drug dealers then yes I would have assumed you do what it is they do unless I had other evidences telling me other wise, it is only natural. You are perceived by the people you hang around with and deal with and seen with on a daily basis are you not? Im not trying to taint his career.. He did that to himself when he started seeing this shady doctor.. Put the blame where it belongs please ;) The truth will come out is a figure of speech, if you took it to mean something other than what was intended I'm sorry.. I already explained to Drew if you go back a few posts that if no further evidence about Tiger using PEDs comes out up until 5 years after he retires then I will come back and say since nothing came out I don't believe he is a user..

[newtogolf]

If it was Tiger woods doctor it would have never become a story, plus the fact that nobody knew the extent of the sheer number of visits and the secrecy around it makes it suspicious. Their is nothing suspicious about you going to your doctor. If I was with you back then and I always saw you hanging around the drug users and drug dealers then yes I would have assumed you do what it is they do unless I had other evidences telling me other wise, it is only natural. You are perceived by the people you hang around with and deal with and seen with on a daily basis are you not?

Im not trying to taint his career.. He did that to himself when he started seeing this shady doctor.. Put the blame where it belongs please ;)

The truth will come out is a figure of speech, if you took it to mean something other than what was intended I'm sorry.. I already explained to Drew if you go back a few posts that if no further evidence about Tiger using PEDs comes out up until 5 years after he retires then I will come back and say since nothing came out I don't believe he is a user..

The bolded area is where you get into trouble, it's a slippery slope when you label people on the basis of who they associate with because people can extrapolate from this to create stereotypes which can then lead to prejudices.  Association on its own does not dictate guilt and I believe someone attempted to point this out to you once before but you failed to hear the message.

[Abu3baid]

Quick Google Search [URL=http://www.reflexportland.com/prp-therapy-helped-tiger-woods/]http://www.reflexportland.com/prp-therapy-helped-tiger-woods/[/URL] The difference Eyad is that your "evidence" is not evidence but only associative circumstance.  You hear what you want to hear and that is all.

Here is a quote from the article you provided. "The fact that Woods avoided surgery, dominated the field, and won every golf award humanly possible speaks to the effectiveness of PRP therapy." Change PRP therapy with PEDs and it all makes sense.. Who was it that said where are the signs of PEDs? I would say the above qualifies.. Thanks for sharing. Again you are missing that I didn't say it wasn't known he was getting therapy, what I said no one knew the extents of the magic doctors visits.. Big difference..

[Abu3baid]

The bolded area is where you get into trouble, it's a slippery slope when you label people on the basis of who they associate with because people can extrapolate from this to create stereotypes which can then lead to prejudices.  Association on its own does not dictate guilt and I believe someone attempted to point this out to you once before but you failed to hear the message.

There is a difference between stereotyping based on things one can control and things one cant.. Stereotyping on ones color, ethnicity ect is the one you are talking about.. Stereotyping a person who chooses To hang out with gangbangers is another. If you are always hanging out with gang members of course people will say your a gangster. Not sure how that is a slippery slope, that's reality.

[saevel25]

If it was Tiger woods doctor it would have never become a story, plus the fact that nobody knew the extent of the sheer number of visits and the secrecy around it makes it suspicious. Their is nothing suspicious about you going to your doctor. If I was with you back then and I always saw you hanging around the drug users and drug dealers then yes I would have assumed you do what it is they do unless I had other evidences telling me other wise, it is only natural. You are perceived by the people you hang around with and deal with and seen with on a daily basis are you not?

So if I had a cousin who was heavily into drugs, but I still want to help them and give them a place to live to try to give them some stability in their life. Under your line of thought then I must be doing drugs as well because you know him to be doing drugs and you see him coming and going from my home.

Do you see how absurd your line of thinking is.

Here is a quote from the article you provided.

"The fact that Woods avoided surgery, dominated the field, and won every golf award humanly possible speaks to the effectiveness of PRP therapy."

Or you could just want to replace PRP with PED because you want to be correct in your assumption that Tiger did PED's. You are basically fishing for anything and trying to spin it to support your claim.

[Mr. Desmond]

I forget all the details. It seems as if this was ages and years ago.

Maybe that's the point.

One would think that over the years, if Tiger was using PEDs, you would have heard something more substantial than what, blood-spinning? (I can't recall)

It's tough if more than a couple of people are involved to keep this news a secret over this many years.

Just saying...

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Quick Google Search

http://www.reflexportland.com/prp-therapy-helped-tiger-woods/

The difference Eyad is that your "evidence" is not evidence but only associative circumstance.  You hear what you want to hear and that is all.

Here is a quote from the article you provided.

"The fact that Woods avoided surgery, dominated the field, and won every golf award humanly possible speaks to the effectiveness of PRP therapy."

Change PRP therapy with PEDs and it all makes sense.. Who was it that said where are the signs of PEDs? I would say the above qualifies.. Thanks for sharing.

Again you are missing that I didn't say it wasn't known he was getting therapy, what I said no one knew the extents of the magic doctors visits.. Big difference..

Baloney.  He won the US Open with a broken leg!  He is an incredible golfer, that is why he wins. He got therapy to avoid surgery.  Thanks for confirming your prejudice.  You are painting yourself into a corner.  Why should he tell you he is getting therapy or the media?  It is his own business.  Big difference.

[Abu3baid]

So if I had a cousin who was heavily into drugs, but I still want to help them and give them a place to live to try to give them some stability in their life. Under your line of thought then I must be doing drugs as well because you know him to be doing drugs and you see him coming and going from my home. Do you see how absurd your line of thinking is.  Or you could just want to replace PRP with PED because you want to be correct in your assumption that Tiger did PED's. You are basically fishing for anything and trying to spin it to support your claim.

It's a general rule, but there are exceptions like you helping your cousin.. My point was that everyone says how no one sees the effect of PED on tiger, but there it is.. He avoided injury, dominated the field, and won every golf award right after coming back from injury and the time of his relationship with the witch doctor.. Plus no one back then knew the extent of the visits not what was happening in then since it is only the doctor and woods. Anyway, I guess it is all old news now.. Blame it all on Williams for brining it up.

[Abu3baid]

Baloney.  He won the US Open with a broken leg!  He is an incredible golfer, that is why he wins. He got therapy to avoid surgery.  Thanks for confirming your prejudice.  You are painting yourself into a corner.  Why should he tell you he is getting therapy or the media?  It is his own business.  Big difference.

No one said he wasn't an incredible golfer.. I was quoting the story you provided, and PEDs can't prevent broken bones.. So I'm not sure what that proves.. And I'm not in any corner, I've been pretty consistent with my comments and its others who want to try and put me in the prejudice corner although that doesn't make sense.. I have my opinions and others have theirs what dos that have to do with bias? I lived through prejudice and bias all my life, and I can tell you that none is going on here.

[turtleback]

I think I have listed plenty of circumstantial evidence that is enough to convince many.. The strongest is the relationship with convicted PED peddlers who worked with other high class athletes like A Rod and others.. Along with the sheer number of visits and the nature of the treatments I for one am convinced and it has nothing to do with hating tiger..

The argument is tiger is above that, he respects the game.. Bullshit.. A Rod supposedly respected the game and so does Ortiz and Manny and many many more..

This is a matter of public opinion, I'm not trying nor do I care to prove anything in a court of law.. Sooner or later the truth will come out, but to say that for the people who believe he did PED don't have any ground to stand on is a little naive because of the history of PED and superstar athletes. And it isn't not like Tiger can stand on high moral ground and say that he he is above that, I'm sure he has no credibility in that sense, so I'm left with a whole bunch of cercumstantial evidence against his word.. Evidence wins..

Evidence does not mean what you seem to think it means.  The best evidence is the players's body.  And as I have stated before and @iacas ated, there is absolutely NO internal evidence of PED use by Tiger.  None of the indicators of injury, healing faster, body changes, etc that are incident to PED use are present UNLIKE the superstar athletes like Bonds and Clemens.

If Tiger used PEDs then he has to be the worst PED user ever and have the worst Drs., because for all your supposed "evidence" there is not a shred of an indication let alone evidence, evidence that he EVER got any PE if he WAS using them.

So where is the PE in Tiger's carer?  What has he done that was out of context with the career arc he established at age 3 on the Mike Douglas show?  Where is the big jump like the one Bonds had between the ages of 22 and 28?

You have absolutely nothing but guilt by association and speculative rumormonging.  None of which is evidence.

[sixcat]

Just like with baseball or any other sport, I don't care who used what, when, why or how.  Evidence suggests Tiger is a phenomenal golfer, nobody would sanely argue that point.  Common sense tells me he is probably guilty of taking some form of PED.  He has after all, been linked to all the same "doctors" as Alex Rodriguez.

That is nothing more than my humble opinion and doesn't change the way I view Tiger or any other athlete.

[Mr. Desmond]

Byron Nelson won 11 times in a row.

Retired before he was caught.

Guilty.