2015 Masters Discussion Thread

[skydog]

And again, I disagree that it's a "hell of a lot" better.

Better? Yes. As much as you seem to think? No.

Pointless. You have your opinion, an opinion that lead to a massive crow-eating (that we've yet to see), I have mine.

I (politely) called you out on being wrong about the speed of the greens vs. 1997 and you've attempted to bolster this straw man argument of yours to dismiss everything I say and divert attention from the fact that (gasp) you were wrong about something. I said I think this win is comparable to Tiger's and the field now is a lot stronger than in 1997 (when the likes of late 40s Tom Kite and Watson finished in the top four). I don't think this is a bold statement. In 1997 golf was still an 'old', unathletic white boy sport and in 2015 it's fileld with world class athletes. It's night and day.

And my opinion on this has nothing to do with me being wrong about Tiger missing the cut. I'll be the first to admit when I was wrong and was happy to do it. It's great to see him playing well again but my position on him hasn't changed. I don't think he wins another major and I don't think he passes Sam Snead.

[saevel25]

And again, I disagree that it's a "hell of a lot" better.

Better? Yes. As much as you seem to think? No.

Pointless. You have your opinion, an opinion that lead to a massive crow-eating (that we've yet to see), I have mine.

I would agree. I was just looking at scoring average and 1997 was only half a stroke worse on average, but the distribution is much larger in 1997.

Its still hard to say what technology has added. Not sure how much stronger Phil is now compared to 1997, but he's 8 yards longer now on average. I could say tech has increased driver distance 10-15 yards since then. That would put driving average in 1997 with modern tech around 280 yards. That is still 9 yards shorter than today's average. I could easily attribute that distance to golfers now being much more athletic and in shape with better golf swings.

I would probably say short game and putting haven't changed much since then. So really players are probably better in their long game. Just hitting it longer with probably slightly more accurate.

I don't see it being a "Hell of A Lot" better as said by @skydog .

[iacas]

I (politely) called you out on being wrong about the speed of the greens vs. 1997

No you didn't. Go back and check that whole discussion. I didn't say what you seem to think I said.

Someone else referenced me saying that putting on a 12 stimp green ("fast") leads to more success than putting on a stimp 8 green ("slow") but I never said anything about the Masters, and we weren't talking about 1997.

But I think you misspoke. I don't think you are talking about the speed of the greens, I think…

---

If you mean to say the softness of the greens (not the speed), then all you had said there was that it rained 1/4" on Saturday morning. So? The greens were soft this year, and the margin of victory was not anywhere near 12… and players all had to play the same course.

If all you're looking to do is compare the actual -18 score, you'd have to factor in a LOT of stuff, including equipment. I don't care enough about this to weigh that in my mind. To me, the single most relevant thing in assessing dominance is, you know, how the other players played compared to the winner.

Heck, let's imagine that the greens were even softer in 1997. Why weren't the other players capable of taking advantage to the tune of 4 shots versus 12? Why wasn't that gap narrowed? Is it your contention that the "field" improved by more than eight shots from 1997 to 2015? Their finishes in other major championships likely don't bear that out.

and you've attempted to bolster this straw man argument of yours to dismiss everything I say and divert attention from the fact that (gasp) you were wrong about something.

When you manage to do that, let me know.

I said I think this win is comparable to Tiger's and the field now is a lot stronger than in 1997 (when the likes of late 40s Tom Kite and Watson finished in the top four).

And I disagree. This isn't difficult to understand. Can we be done talking about it to each other now? If you want the last word, go for it. After I submit this, I'm done.

I disagree with you that Jordan's performance was better than Tiger's in 1997. They're close. I also disagree that the strength of field is remarkably tougher now than in 1997. Better, yes. Significantly, or "a lot," or whatever other words you've used… no.

In 1997 golf was still an 'old', unathletic white boy sport and in 2015 it's fileld with world class athletes. It's night and day.

That's your opinion. You're welcome to it. I don't share it.

And my opinion on this has nothing to do with me being wrong about Tiger missing the cut.

Sure it does. It speaks to your "golf IQ." Not very strongly, but at least a little bit. Very little.

I'll be the first to admit when I was wrong and was happy to do it.

This isn't a matter of fact. It's an opinion. No right/wrong about it.

It's great to see him playing well again but my position on him hasn't changed. I don't think he wins another major and I don't think he passes Sam Snead.

Okay, good for you. You get your opinion. Thanks for sharing it again, even though it has nothing to do with the 2015 Masters and how dominant this was for Jordan versus Tiger's win in 1997.

I don't see it being a "Hell of A Lot" better as said by @skydog.

You're not allowed to use facts to help form your opinion! You're just supposed to despise Tiger Woods, like good ol' @skydog , and put down his accomplishments with any little shred you can find.

As I say in the spoiler stuff, @skydog , you get to have your opinion, and I get to have mine.

We disagree. Cool.

If you want the last word, take it. But this has already devolved into a pointless "yuh huh" "nuh uh" argument. Enjoy.

[ChrisP]

It was two kinds of "-18's". Tiger really took apart that course with his length and dominated in that fashion. He was hitting wedges into par-5s for Christ's sake. He was hitting it so far they had to "Tiger proof" after that. Spieth is a much shorter hitter, but he dominated with the putter. Jordan's putting is ridiculously impressive and he is extremely smart and manages the course so well.

I do think if you put today's field back in '97 on that course, Tiger still wins, but maybe not by 12 shots. I'm sure with Rory's length, he would be double digits under par. Obviously Jordan would be up there as well. But this is all hypothetical. I just think the Tiger of '97-'99 would have a little bit harder time in today's field than he did back then. Just my opinion.

[Rick Martin]

Jordn off to NYC....David Letterman Show perhaps?

The future of golf.........hopefully.......

When's the last time you've seen TW do something like this?

[newtogolf]

When's the last time you've seen TW do something like this?

Tiger was giving kids fist pumps as he walked past them through most of the tournament this weekend so I'm not sure what you're referring to?  I think we all know by now you hate Tiger, no need to trash him in every post you make.

[Natural Patrick]

I (politely) called you out on being wrong about the speed of the greens vs. 1997 and you've attempted to bolster this straw man argument of yours to dismiss everything I say and divert attention from the fact that (gasp) you were wrong about something. I said I think this win is comparable to Tiger's and the field now is a lot stronger than in 1997 (when the likes of late 40s Tom Kite and Watson finished in the top four). I don't think this is a bold statement. In 1997 golf was still an 'old', unathletic white boy sport and in 2015 it's fileld with world class athletes. It's night and day.

And my opinion on this has nothing to do with me being wrong about Tiger missing the cut. I'll be the first to admit when I was wrong and was happy to do it. It's great to see him playing well again but my position on him hasn't changed. I don't think he wins another major and I don't think he passes Sam Snead.

I'm very comfortable saying Tiger will Not win another major as well.

[trickyputt]

I am tiger hater. I havent had anything good to say about his attitude in a long time. But...if he wants to come back, to quit saying fu*ck off the tee, to show show class as he earns what nobody is going to give him, then I think he will improve the competition. He was maybe 17th in the field? So he can earn it forward. If he can.

[jbishop15]

Jordn off to NYC....David Letterman Show perhaps? [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/117569/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/117570/] [/URL] The future of golf.........hopefully....... When's the last time you've seen TW do something like this? [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/117571/] [/URL]

Apparently, it isn't a Rick Martin post without a shot at TW. Didn't we just deal with this same sort of thing like fifteen posts ago? I mean, come on. TW is well-liked by his peers, there is concrete evidence that he is good to fans, and taking constant pot shots isn't fair.

[isukgolf]

Can someone show me on a scorecard where you record handshakes, first pumps, etc?

[newtogolf]

I am tiger hater. I havent had anything good to say about his attitude in a long time. But...if he wants to come back, to quit saying fu*ck off the tee, to show show class as he earns what nobody is going to give him, then I think he will improve the competition. He was maybe 17th in the field? So he can earn it forward. If he can.

Do you think he curses intentionally to alienate fans, it's a gut reaction to a bad shot.  I've heard a lot worse at my local course and on television so do you have issues with any pro that mutters profanity when they hit a bad shot or just Tiger?

[trickyputt]

No I dont. It is really just the melting pot of America. I play with a former employee, turned business owner that does the same thing. It is not my place to say anything from the inside to the skin. But once it leaves his skin I will call him an idiot when it suits me. He is a black guy I actually paid 2300.00 to bail out of a prison for unpaid checks. His favorite word is shit, he hits wayy to steep, and he doggedly wants to improve, though my "refined" wife would never understand his presence at my dinner table. I dont blame her he is a basic black guy.

[trickyputt]

Whatever you do, dont delete the posts. He would look upon it as some weakness you thought he could not overcome. Fair warnIng for softies.

[iacas]

Whatever you do, dont delete the posts. He would look upon it as some weakness you thought he could not overcome.

Fair warnIng for softies.

WTF are you talking about?

I'll leave your racially tinged post up. It makes you look ridiculous. Incoherent and racist.

[isukgolf]

@trickyputt you post the above about a "basic black guy" and you have an issue with Tiger saying the word "fu*ck" ... wow I am speechless

[tmac20]

No I dont. It is really just the melting pot of America. I play with a former employee, turned business owner that does the same thing. It is not my place to say anything from the inside to the skin. But once it leaves his skin I will call him an idiot when it suits me.

He is a black guy I actually paid 2300.00 to bail out of a prison for unpaid checks. His favorite word is shit, he hits wayy to steep, and he doggedly wants to improve, though my "refined" wife would never understand his presence at my dinner table. I dont blame her he is a basic black guy.

What the **** dude...

[trickyputt]

Wow..ok I play golf with this black guy who used to work for me ans he curses really loud. "S**t" and "F**k". What are you guys telling me? That I am somehow responsible for his behavior? Did my poor grammar make you think that that I am responsible for this guy? And yeah these are my people. I will not apologize to you for them, or my life for interacting with them. I actually would ask if you are not an overinsulated academicilly sensitive mind?

[jbishop15]

I'm really confused to what's going here