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Unplayable lie: must drop 2 clubs away be in straight line?


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Maybe you'd rather go back to the old way and roll it off your shoulder blade?  That would be equally unequal for people of differing elevations.

Tell me how you know that your hand is 4 feet above the ground.  I've seen players claim to make 4 foot putts, which were lucky if they were 3 feet.  I've seen a player drop 10 feet from the margin of a hazard and insist that he was within 2 clublengths.   Most people are not very good at accurately estimating distances, so the best solution is to just make it an easy to follow procedure.  The difference in impact velocity between a 4 foot drop and a 5 foot drop is insignificant.

Instead of getting snarky about it why don't you come up with a solution? And like I said, some people cannot drop from shoulder height. We have some ladies in their late 70s who can't for example due to arthritis. So I don't say anything when they drop from less than that. Right now I couldn't make a drop at shoulder height without pain myself if I was playiing. But I'm not playing.

Regarding the bolded part, Has it ever been tested to see what the results are say on an incline?

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Instead of getting snarky about it why don't you come up with a solution? And like I said, some people cannot drop from shoulder height. We have some ladies in their late 70s who can't for example due to arthritis. So I don't say anything when they drop from less than that. Right now I couldn't make a drop at shoulder height without pain myself if I was playiing. But I'm not playing.

Regarding the bolded part, Has it ever been tested to see what the results are say on an incline?

I don't think he's being snarky; it's a procedure that's simple for a huge majority of golfers. The rules haven't worried about extreme physical outliers in other cases. See, eg, the anchored putting ban and the claim by Tim Clark that he can't perform a non-anchored putting stroke because of his wrist deformity. And the 4 foot vs 5 foot distance due to height isn't one the rules concern themselves with either. Adam Scott gets to take longer relief because of his huge putter giving him a longer club to use for club length measurements.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Maybe you'd rather go back to the old way and roll it off your shoulder blade?  That would be equally unequal for people of differing elevations.

Tell me how you know that your hand is 4 feet above the ground.  I've seen players claim to make 4 foot putts, which were lucky if they were 3 feet.  I've seen a player drop 10 feet from the margin of a hazard and insist that he was within 2 clublengths.   Most people are not very good at accurately estimating distances, so the best solution is to just make it an easy to follow procedure.  The difference in impact velocity between a 4 foot drop and a 5 foot drop is insignificant.

Instead of getting snarky about it why don't you come up with a solution? And like I said, some people cannot drop from shoulder height. We have some ladies in their late 70s who can't for example due to arthritis. So I don't say anything when they drop from less than that. Right now I couldn't make a drop at shoulder height without pain myself if I was playiing. But I'm not playing.

Regarding the bolded part, Has it ever been tested to see what the results are say on an incline?

I don't see a solution as being needed, and I wasn't snarky about it.  You seem to have a problem with every rule in the book, and replying to your comments can get a bit old after a while.  The rules account for medical conditions.  Players who can't lift at least one arm to shoulder level are a tiny minority in the golfing population.  You don't write rules for the minority, you make allowances for those few who have such an issue.

We had a paraplegic who played regularly on the course where I worked.  He used a course supplied ADA cart that allowed him to drive on the greens to putt.  Allowances are made, but that doesn't require a rules change.

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I could see the issues with my question about one hour after the post.

In the future, I'll be more aware of not only the 'unplayable' rule and options but also the techniques used to drop to my advantage, when possible.

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Originally Posted by DrvFrShow View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Maybe you'd rather go back to the old way and roll it off your shoulder blade?  That would be equally unequal for people of differing elevations.

Tell me how you know that your hand is 4 feet above the ground.  I've seen players claim to make 4 foot putts, which were lucky if they were 3 feet.  I've seen a player drop 10 feet from the margin of a hazard and insist that he was within 2 clublengths.   Most people are not very good at accurately estimating distances, so the best solution is to just make it an easy to follow procedure. The difference in impact velocity between a 4 foot drop and a 5 foot drop is insignificant.

Instead of getting snarky about it why don't you come up with a solution? And like I said, some people cannot drop from shoulder height. We have some ladies in their late 70s who can't for example due to arthritis. So I don't say anything when they drop from less than that. Right now I couldn't make a drop at shoulder height without pain myself if I was playiing. But I'm not playing.

Regarding the bolded part, Has it ever been tested to see what the results are say on an incline?

I don't see a solution as being needed, and I wasn't snarky about it.  You seem to have a problem with every rule in the book, and replying to your comments can get a bit old after a while.  The rules account for medical conditions.  Players who can't lift at least one arm to shoulder level are a tiny minority in the golfing population.  You don't write rules for the minority, you make allowances for those few who have such an issue.

We had a paraplegic who played regularly on the course where I worked.  He used a course supplied ADA cart that allowed him to drive on the greens to putt.  Allowances are made, but that doesn't require a rules change.

FWIW, I didn't think you were being snarky either and actually displayed a lot of patience. For myself, I was merely playing Devil's Advocate since I like these kinds of discussions. Seems like you proved me wrong and I'm good with that.

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Just to continue the discussion, the difference in velocity between a drop from 4 feet and a drop from 5 feet is 1 MPH.  From 4 feet the ball hits the ground at 11 mph and from 5 feet it hits at 12 mph.  Not a significant factor.

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Just to continue the discussion, the difference in velocity between a drop from 4 feet and a drop from 5 feet is 1 MPH.  From 4 feet the ball hits the ground at 11 mph and from 5 feet it hits at 12 mph.  Not a significant factor.


It's all fun and games until Newtonian physics happens.  Now look at the mess. :smartass:

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Just to continue the discussion, the difference in velocity between a drop from 4 feet and a drop from 5 feet is 1 MPH.  From 4 feet the ball hits the ground at 11 mph and from 5 feet it hits at 12 mph.  Not a significant factor.

It's all fun and games until Newtonian physics happens.  Now look at the mess.

Yeah - my last physics class was my senior year in high school, 1963-64.  My thanks go to the internet and THIS website.

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Maybe you'd rather go back to the old way and roll it off your shoulder blade?  That would be equally unequal for people of differing elevations.

You are correct that rolling it off your shoulder blade would also be different for people of different heights but he never suggested that. I think the current drop procedure is reasonable IF you are going to actually have people drop. What I suggested for situations that are currently PENALTY DROPS is to allow the player to place the ball. Currently, I would say that the lost ball stroke & distance and unplayable lie rules are some of the least followed rules in golf. In casual rounds, I almost NEVER see someone walk or drive back when they lose a ball or have an unplayable lie and I almost NEVER see someone take an unplayable lie drop into a spot where they don't end up with a swing. Several of the courses I play have areas where there are lots of tightly spaced young pine trees with very uneven ground between them. Whenever I hit it near there, I will play a provisional, but there have been numerous times when I found my ball unplayable. The problem is that sometimes, while there might be a spot within 2 club lengths where I could place the ball and play it, a drop at this spot might see my ball roll back into an unplayable lie. While I might deem my best option to go back to my previous spot and hit a 3rd shot, I know that isn't going to speed up play or make me any friends. (One time I told my group I was thinking about that and none of them could understand why I just didn't go ahead and play my provisional). Fourputt- Why do you see the current penalty drop procedure as being superior to the 1744 procedure of being able to tee it up when taking penalty relief from a water hazard? What do you see as the problem with allowing a player to place the ball whenever taking a penalty drop?

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I think the current drop procedure is reasonable IF you are going to actually have people drop. What I suggested for situations that are currently PENALTY DROPS is to allow the player to place the ball.

Why?

Currently, I would say that the lost ball stroke & distance and unplayable lie rules are some of the least followed rules in golf. In casual rounds, I almost NEVER see someone walk or drive back when they lose a ball or have an unplayable lie and I almost NEVER see someone take an unplayable lie drop into a spot where they don't end up with a swing.

If people regularly ignore the rule, what do you think changing the rule will accomplish, and… again… why?

Several of the courses I play have areas where there are lots of tightly spaced young pine trees with very uneven ground between them. Whenever I hit it near there, I will play a provisional, but there have been numerous times when I found my ball unplayable. The problem is that sometimes, while there might be a spot within 2 club lengths where I could place the ball and play it, a drop at this spot might see my ball roll back into an unplayable lie.

Them's the breaks. Don't hit your ball there.

Fourputt- Why do you see the current penalty drop procedure as being superior to the 1744 procedure of being able to tee it up when taking penalty relief from a water hazard? What do you see as the problem with allowing a player to place the ball whenever taking a penalty drop?


@MEfree , have you bought and read your copy of the Principles of the Rules of Golf yet?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Maybe you'd rather go back to the old way and roll it off your shoulder blade?  That would be equally unequal for people of differing elevations.

You are correct that rolling it off your shoulder blade would also be different for people of different heights but he never suggested that.

I think the current drop procedure is reasonable IF you are going to actually have people drop. What I suggested for situations that are currently PENALTY DROPS is to allow the player to place the ball. Currently, I would say that the lost ball stroke & distance and unplayable lie rules are some of the least followed rules in golf. In casual rounds, I almost NEVER see someone walk or drive back when they lose a ball or have an unplayable lie and I almost NEVER see someone take an unplayable lie drop into a spot where they don't end up with a swing.

Several of the courses I play have areas where there are lots of tightly spaced young pine trees with very uneven ground between them. Whenever I hit it near there, I will play a provisional, but there have been numerous times when I found my ball unplayable. The problem is that sometimes, while there might be a spot within 2 club lengths where I could place the ball and play it, a drop at this spot might see my ball roll back into an unplayable lie. While I might deem my best option to go back to my previous spot and hit a 3rd shot, I know that isn't going to speed up play or make me any friends. (One time I told my group I was thinking about that and none of them could understand why I just didn't go ahead and play my provisional).

Fourputt- Why do you see the current penalty drop procedure as being superior to the 1744 procedure of being able to tee it up when taking penalty relief from a water hazard? What do you see as the problem with allowing a player to place the ball whenever taking a penalty drop?

Short answer is that I don't think a player should get a break for hitting his ball into a penalty situation.   I also believe in the desirability of the more random lie that a drop gives you, more like the randomness the you get from playing a stroke.

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Dropping from shoulder height is different for different people too. Someone who is 6'4" tall drops from a much different height than someone who is 5'8" or shorter. Shouldn't they standardize the drop height to for example 4'. There are people who can't drop a ball from shoulder height, too, and accommodations have to be made.

Dropping from shouder hight is just a procedure, telling us how to drop, making it easier to decide, if a drop was done properly.

The distance to the ground may vary from the size of the player and the ground, on which the player is standing.

If you are standing on sloping ground, you are free to drop the ball on either side - even if the distance from shoulder hight to the ground is different on one side to the other side.

As long as your ball is not inside the bunker, you  may even stand in a deep bunker to drop the ball from maybe five inches to the ground outside the bunker.

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Why? If people regularly ignore the rule, what do you think changing the rule will accomplish, and… again… why? Them's the breaks. Don't hit your ball there. @MEfree , have you bought and read your copy of the Principles of the Rules of Golf yet?

Why? More people will be willing/able to follow the placement rule without slowing down play. I know that I should not hit the ball in the trees, but mistakes happen. I am better than the average golfer and see this happen semi-regularly at some of the courses I play. Under the current rules, if I don't have a reasonable chance that my ball won't roll back into an unplayable lie (either by dropping within 2 club lengths or going straight back), then my only option is going back to where I last hit from as the current rules don't allow for a provisional for a possible unplayable lie. Having to go back under stroke and distance is typically going to slow down play much more than placing a ball within 2 club lengths or straight back. As the unexpected lost ball thread shows, even guys who regularly follow most rules tend NOT to take the distance penalty when playing a casual round and finding themselves in a situation where they need to go back to follow the rules. No. [quote name="Fourputt" url="/t/82438/unplayable-lie-must-drop-2-clubs-away-be-in-straight-line/18#post_1152208"] Short answer is that I don't think a player should get a break for hitting his ball into a penalty situation.   I also believe in the desirability of the more random lie that a drop gives you, more like the randomness the you get from playing a stroke. [/quote] Fair enough, but I don't agree with you. I think the penalty stroke is enough to mitigate the break someone gets for being able to place the ball. Obviously, the original rules makers agreed with me as they actually allowed a player to tee it up (which I believe was done by creating a lie with sand or dirt as opposed to actually using a wooden tee). Random luck can outshine skill in the short term...the more random luck a game or sport has, the longer it can take for skill to shine through. While random luck can make things interesting by testing ones mental make-up or giving a less skilled player a chance to win, I think that golf has enough random luck without needing more added with the possibility that your penalty drop can roll into a situation that was the same or worse than where you were before taking it.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Why?

If people regularly ignore the rule, what do you think changing the rule will accomplish, and… again… why?

Them's the breaks. Don't hit your ball there.

@MEfree

, have you bought and read your copy of the Principles of the Rules of Golf yet?

Why? More people will be willing/able to follow the placement rule without slowing down play. I know that I should not hit the ball in the trees, but mistakes happen. I am better than the average golfer and see this happen semi-regularly at some of the courses I play. Under the current rules, if I don't have a reasonable chance that my ball won't roll back into an unplayable lie (either by dropping within 2 club lengths or going straight back), then my only option is going back to where I last hit from as the current rules don't allow for a provisional for a possible unplayable lie. Having to go back under stroke and distance is typically going to slow down play much more than placing a ball within 2 club lengths or straight back.

As the unexpected lost ball thread shows, even guys who regularly follow most rules tend NOT to take the distance penalty when playing a casual round and finding themselves in a situation where they need to go back to follow the rules.

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Short answer is that I don't think a player should get a break for hitting his ball into a penalty situation.   I also believe in the desirability of the more random lie that a drop gives you, more like the randomness the you get from playing a stroke.

Fair enough, but I don't agree with you. I think the penalty stroke is enough to mitigate the break someone gets for being able to place the ball. Obviously, the original rules makers agreed with me as they actually allowed a player to tee it up (which I believe was done by creating a lie with sand or dirt as opposed to actually using a wooden tee).

Random luck can outshine skill in the short term...the more random luck a game or sport has, the longer it can take for skill to shine through. While random luck can make things interesting by testing ones mental make-up or giving a less skilled player a chance to win, I think that golf has enough random luck without needing more added with the possibility that your penalty drop can roll into a situation that was the same or worse than where you were before taking it.

Luck, both good and bad, has been a significant factor in the game of golf since its inception.  If they didn't want luck to pay a factor then they would bulldoze all of the fairways and greens dead flat - they'd eliminate all overhanging branches, etc.  They are no more likely to regulate dropping out of the game than they are to allow a player to concede a putt to himself.

I can't understand how you can be an avid golfer when you dislike so many of its most basic principles.  Oh, I forgot, you don't know its fundamental principles because you have never taken Erik up on his challenge to read them.  I guess you can't really dislike what you don't really understand.  You just don't like the rules that have been built on them.

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Why? More people will be willing/able to follow the placement rule without slowing down play.

Let's try to avoid just making things up.

I know that I should not hit the ball in the trees, but mistakes happen.

So you should be rewarded by getting to put your ball on a nice fluffy lie? Your reward is that you get to extract your ball paying only a one-stroke penalty and an optional amount of distance from what could be a lie from which you might never extract your ball.

Under the current rules, if I don't have a reasonable chance that my ball won't roll back into an unplayable lie (either by dropping within 2 club lengths or going straight back), then my only option is going back to where I last hit from as the current rules don't allow for a provisional for a possible unplayable lie.

Uhhhh, yes, that's the rule.

Having to go back under stroke and distance is typically going to slow down play much more than placing a ball within 2 club lengths or straight back.

I agree going back would be slower. So?

As the unexpected lost ball thread shows, even guys who regularly follow most rules tend NOT to take the distance penalty when playing a casual round and finding themselves in a situation where they need to go back to follow the rules.

And… so?

I think the penalty stroke is enough to mitigate the break someone gets for being able to place the ball.

I don't. The break is that you get to extract your ball with only a stroke and variable-distance (your choice) penalty.

Obviously, the original rules makers agreed with me as they actually allowed a player to tee it up (which I believe was done by creating a lie with sand or dirt as opposed to actually using a wooden tee).

Oh brother.

Random luck can outshine skill in the short term...the more random luck a game or sport has, the longer it can take for skill to shine through. While random luck can make things interesting by testing ones mental make-up or giving a less skilled player a chance to win, I think that golf has enough random luck without needing more added with the possibility that your penalty drop can roll into a situation that was the same or worse than where you were before taking it.

The guys in charge of the rules feel differently. As do I. And @Fourputt probably does too.

I made this very clear before, and I'll make it very clear again now: for someone who so frequently seems to love discussing the Rules of Golf, it's incredibly bizarre that you have not purchased and read the Principles booklet. People have even offered to mail a copy to you, free, and you've not chosen to allow them to. This makes you little more than a Rules of Golf troll.

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Back to the OP.

Rule 28-b allows you to drop like you can with a lateral hazard.  Keep that option in mind if you are worried that the 2 club length drop will put you in a bad lie.

Rule 28 - Ball Unplayable

Definitions

All defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.

The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course, except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.

If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or

c. Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole.

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Let's try to avoid just making things up. So you should be rewarded by getting to put your ball on a nice fluffy lie? Your reward is that you get to extract your ball paying only a one-stroke penalty and an optional amount of distance from what could be a lie from which you might never extract your ball. Uhhhh, yes, that's the rule. I agree going back would be slower. So? And… so? I don't. The break is that you get to extract your ball with only a stroke and variable-distance (your choice) penalty. Oh brother. The guys in charge of the rules feel differently. As do I. And @Fourputt probably does too. I made this very clear before, and I'll make it very clear again now: for someone who so frequently seems to love discussing the Rules of Golf, it's incredibly bizarre that you have not purchased and read the Principles booklet. People have even offered to mail a copy to you, free, and you've not chosen to allow them to. This makes you little more than a Rules of Golf troll.

Yes, being able to place the ball is less penal that the current option of dropping it, but there is still a penalty stroke involved. Being able to take a penalty placement certainly isn't going to encourage many golfers to try to hit it into hazards & unplayable lies to be able to take a penalty placement. Yes, maybe some golfers will get more aggressive knowing they can take a penalty placement instead of a penalty drop, but doubt it would have much influence on good players. Didn't realize that I was being offered a free copy. I think I have a pretty good idea of the concepts discussed in the book, but will take the time to read it just to be sure. Please have the person making the offer PM me and I will provide them with my address. [quote name="boogielicious" url="/t/82438/unplayable-lie-must-drop-2-clubs-away-be-in-straight-line/18#post_1153029"]Back to the OP. Rule 28-b allows you to drop like you can with a lateral hazard.  Keep that option in mind if you are worried that the 2 club length drop will put you in a bad lie. [/quote] With a lateral, you get to take it 2 club lengths FROM THE POINT IT ENTERED THE HAZARD (or the opposite side of the hazard). This will typically be more than two club lengths from where the ball actually lies. With an unplayable, it is a straight two club lengths even if that still leaves you with no swing/shot. True, going straight back MAY solve this issue in some instances, but not always (like when going more than two club lengths back would put you OB). Typically, I would rather have hit it into a lateral hazard rather than into an unplayable lie as the relief for a lateral hazard is more generous. The exception possibly being when I entered the hazard a long way back from where the ball ended up.

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Originally Posted by MEfree

Yes, being able to place the ball is less penal that the current option of dropping it, but there is still a penalty stroke involved. Being able to take a penalty placement certainly isn't going to encourage many golfers to try to hit it into hazards & unplayable lies to be able to take a penalty placement. Yes, maybe some golfers will get more aggressive knowing they can take a penalty placement instead of a penalty drop, but doubt it would have much influence on good players.

That's beside the point at this point. You've offered little reason why someone should be allowed to place instead of drop. Dropping includes a little more luck, which is a part of golf, and is something that must be considered if you're going to drop in an area.

Didn't realize that I was being offered a free copy. I think I have a pretty good idea of the concepts discussed in the book, but will take the time to read it just to be sure. Please have the person making the offer PM me and I will provide them with my address.

I don't recall who offered it. The requirement is still in place: given your propensities… you were required to have read the book before further discussing the Rules of Golf.

With a lateral, you get to take it 2 club lengths FROM THE POINT IT ENTERED THE HAZARD (or the opposite side of the hazard).

So? A player is the sole determinant of whether his ball is unplayable. There's no defined margin of where a ball is "unplayable" or not. This isn't a similar sort of situation.

This will typically be more than two club lengths from where the ball actually lies. With an unplayable, it is a straight two club lengths even if that still leaves you with no swing/shot.

Again… so?

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