Killing Endangered Animals for Sport? Good Idea?

[Golfingdad]

Nobody goes to Africa to hunt tigers.

The issue is a lot more complicated than just big game hunters killing off animals for trophies. In the grand scheme of things, I bet they don't diminish animal populations all that much. These animals are dying off because they're losing their habitats due to human populations increasing and needing more space, pollution, and the environmental factors that result from them. A lot are driven away from their traditional stomping grounds because they are disruptive to the local human population (ever see what an elephant can do to a village or a herd of antelope can do to farmland?). Many with marketable features are simply killed (illegally) for monetary gain.

Very few of these dead animals end up on somebody's trophy wall. One can argue the opposite, really. If trophy hunts were a sustainable business, people would try to breed animals for that purpose and the populations would increase. I talked about the scimitar-horned oryx a while back. If it wasn't for hunting ranches, these animals would likely be extinct altogether.

You've got your rhino species mixed up as @Golfingdad mentioned, but rhinos are going extinct because their horns are being harvested for quack medicine, not because they're hunted for trophies. Rhinos would actually benefit from rhino horns being legally sold in the market. They are made of keratin and can regrow, so there's actually no reason they can't be farmed for their horns. This would have the additional benefit of driving rhino horn prices down, making it less profitable for poachers.

All you'd have to do is tranquilize them and cut them off and they're perfectly fine. The horns don't really serve a purpose. In fact, that's exactly what a lot of wildlife conservation groups in Africa do: they cut the horns off the rhinos in their reservations so that poachers have no reason to kill them.

Saw a story not too long ago that there are companies now capable of (and intending to) producing synthetic rhino horn that is biologically identical to real rhino horn.  One thought being that they could flood the market and drive the price way down, thus hopefully eliminating or curbing poaching.  Of course, there is also fear that it could have the opposite effect, or maybe no effect.  Here's an article: https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/thorny_issues/synthetic_rhino_horn_will_it_save_the_rhino

It may or may not succeed, but its cool that it's an option. :)

[mmoan2]

On my phone, so I will try to respond to each point in order.

I would also be against hunting elk (or any animal) if there was only 200 left. Remember the hunter cares about population welfare.

I also think animal populations would be fine (for the most part) without hunting. Hunters/trappers take what is known as the harvestable surplus. Without hunting a certain amount of animals would die anyway. The woods/land can only support just so many animals. Also the city of Duluth has a citywide deer hunt. I am not sure of the numbers, but they want a fair amount of deer removed from city limits. This could probably be done using military, but why not make some money (state/city) instead of costing tax payers...

I do not hunt to help the population. I also do not make excuses for the reasons I hunt. I hunt for the recreation. Side benefits are population control, meat to eat, license sales for the state, etc. Again I make no excuses for the reasons I hunt, and feel no need to do so.

We agree on (not) hunting animals with small populations. Population welfare...

Last point. Ego has nothing to do with it. Hunting (and muskie fishing) gives me heart pounding excitement. That is 99% of the reason why I do it. Those who have experienced it will understand where I am coming from. Those who have not, will probably not be able to relate.

Does all recreation count as "getting off"?

Speaking hyperbolically, all recreation does count as "getting off," yes I employ such a term because it strengthens my statement that big game hunting is an irresponsible cheap thrill in the 21st century. No offense meant personally.

I am glad to see you are an informed, responsible person who hunts in this fashion. Thanks also for educating me on some of the hunting-related issues in Minnesota. I grew up just outside of New York City and my father wasn;t a hunter, so you can see why it never registered for me as an activity I gave much thought to. I've spent plenty of time fishing in the Atlantic Ocean to know that thrill, though.

I guess I'm a little confused by your last point, but it's really just a semantic quibble about psychological definitions. How does feeding your need for excitement not relate to your ego? I don't think it's a bad thing - in fact it's necessary for mental health. I understand how you differentiate ego from enjoyment, but  when I said earlier that big game hunting can be a sign of a psychological issue, I was referring to those who conflate the two. I don't know a lot of big game hunters, but the ones I do know exhibit signs of needing to make great conquests to enjoy themselves. Real Type A personalities. Probably the most famous big game hunters in the United States from the 20th Century - Ernest Hemingway and Theodore Roosevelt - had major confidence problems. One was a manic depressive who committed suicide and the other spent his entire life trying to escape a childhood where he was viewed as frail, turning himself into one of the most prolific self-made men in modern history.

I think we've killed this discussion. Happy hunting!

[mmoan2]

@billchao - The issue is a lot more complicated, I agree, and the encroachment on habitat and commercialization of animal parts like elephant tusks and rhino horns for often dubious reasons is far more of a problem. It was interesting to see how you proposed that hunting as a sustainable industry might help species continuation. I'm sure there are many other instances if you've named but a few. Thanks for the insight. I'm sticking to golf, basketball, and writing for now, though.

[Abu3baid]

Previous Illegal Hunt

Seems like it isn't the first time there has been an illegal hunt in the African country.. Then again, I'm sure they just turn a blind eye to it, and the only reason these things are coming up because of the "popularity" of the lion that was killed earlier this month.

Who knew that so many in the medical profession are hunters?

[boogielicious]

Previous Illegal Hunt    <--- LINK

Seems like it isn't the first time there has been an illegal hunt in the African country.. Then again, I'm sure they just turn a blind eye to it, and the only reason these things are coming up because of the "popularity" of the lion that was killed earlier this month.

Who knew that so many in the medical profession are hunters?

Poaching and illegal hunting are not tolerated at all. However, these countries do not have the resources to patrol the massive square mile areas that would be needed to stop the practices. To stop it, you would need many more rangers, helicopters and planes.

[Abu3baid]

Poaching and illegal hunting are not tolerated at all. However, these countries do not have the resources to patrol the massive square mile areas that would be needed to stop the practices. To stop it, you would need many more rangers, helicopters and planes.

That's a pretty definitive statement.  Do you know of how many people get away with it because they pay the right price to the right official or police officers?  These are countries with huge poverty rates and corruption.  When I say they turn a blind eye to it I mean that someone is getting paid off, and people look the other way.

[billchao]

Do you know of how many people get away with it because they pay the right price to the right official or police officers?

No. Do you? [quote name="Abu3baid" url="/t/83520/killing-endangered-animals-for-sport-good-idea/90#post_1178818"]These are countries with huge poverty rates and corruption.  When I say they turn a blind eye to it I mean that someone is getting paid off, and people look the other way. [/quote]That's a pretty bold accusation to be throwing around. I trust you have some evidence to back up this claim?

[Elmer]

They had a women on the today show this morning who was bragging about shooting a giraffe.

I assume there is a great rush sitting in the brush and waiting for a mopey giraffe wander by and shooting it.

I have no use for people like this in my world!

All I can think is Jebus would be so proud of you!

http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3182671/Now-Idaho-huntress-taunts-world-sickening-Facebook-brags-killing-old-giraffe-warns-haters-s-come.html

http://www.aww.com.au/latest-news/news-stories/american-hunter-outrages-internet-posting-picture-of-slain-giraffe-after-cecil-the-lion-controversy-21652

[Abu3baid]

No. Do you? That's a pretty bold accusation to be throwing around. I trust you have some evidence to back up this claim?

Evidence to back up what claim exactly? That I think there is corruption and poverty in Africa? Here is a quick quote.. Just do a quick google search on corruption in Africa. "While the crisis is complex, with root causes in chronic poverty, the absence of sustainable economic alternatives and a burgeoning demand for wildlife products like ivory and rhino horn, the wheels of this multi-billion dollar industry are liberally greased by bribery and corruption at all levels of government in several African countries" [URL]http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2014-11-28-home-grown-corruption-is-killing-africas-rhinos-and-elephants/#.Vb98D19dbCQ[/URL]

[billchao]

Evidence to back up what claim exactly? That I think there is corruption and poverty in Africa?

I wanted to see if you were alluding to something that's citable or if you just came to the conclusion on your own. I should have just assumed. See that wasn't so hard, was it? It's your claim, thus it's up to you to do the quick google search, not me. I don't have time to research everything everyone claims. You should learn to do that out of habit, if only to support your position.

[Abu3baid]

I wanted to see if you were alluding to something that's citable or if you just came to the conclusion on your own. I should have just assumed.

Assumed what? Did you read the article I quoted? Besides I thought it was common knowledge that Africa is full of corruption.. I have friends that live in several different African countries by the way.. It's like you asking everyone to give you evidence that the sky is blue or sea water is salty.

[billchao]

Assumed what? Did you read the article I quoted?

Obviously not since you edited it in after I commented.

[Abu3baid]

Obviously not since you edited it in after I commented.

No I didn't.. Maybe it was the same time.. But I didn't see your response.. However, i hope it satisfies your inquiry,.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by billchao

Obviously not since you edited it in after I commented.

No I didn't.. Maybe it was the same time.. But I didn't see your response.. However, i hope it satisfies your inquiry,.

News Flash. The world is full of corruption. Everywhere. But what I read from your comments is you believe everyone is corrupt in Africa and this leads to poaching. Your comments elude that no one in Africa cares.  That is why you are being asked to clarify yours statements. There are many conservation groups trying to stop poaching including governments of many African countries. They just do not have the resources to cover areas as big as Africa.  If there was poaching in Yellowstone or Montana, would we have the resources to catch everyone? No we would not.

[Abu3baid]

News Flash. The world is full of corruption. Everywhere. But what I read from your comments is you believe everyone is corrupt in Africa and this leads to poaching. Your comments elude that no one in Africa cares.  That is why you are being asked to clarify yours statements. There are many conservation groups trying to stop poaching including governments of many African countries. They just do not have the resources to cover areas as big as Africa.  If there was poaching in Yellowstone or Montana, would we have the resources to catch everyone? No we would not.

Huh? I am eluding that everyone is corrupt? Now you are just making stuff up.. What you understood and what I said are two different things, and bill was questioning where I got the idea that there "is" corruption in the world of "animal protection" and I provided other sources of people saying the same thing.. Let's not add things to what I said that are not there.. This had nothing to do with the amount of land that needs to be covered.. There is enough corruption that it is liberally greasing the wheel as the article says.. [quote name="boogielicious" url="/t/83520/killing-endangered-animals-for-sport-good-idea/110_10#post_1178801"] Poaching and illegal hunting are not tolerated at all. However, these countries do not have the resources to patrol the massive square mile areas that would be needed to stop the practices. To stop it, you would need many more rangers, helicopters and planes. [/quote] Plus I was directly responding to your claim that poaching is not tolerated at all.. And you haven't backed up your claim yet.. I specifically answered that with the corruption in these matters it shows that it is told rated, plus weak judicial systems that don't punish or carry out the punishment it just adds to the mess..

[Abu3baid]

Let me just add some notes from the article for anyone that believes that African governments are doing something significant.. (from the previous article) "A recent Environmental Investigation Agency (EIA) report notes that “the highest levels of the Tanzanian government” are ultimately responsible for the decimation of the country’s elephant population by failing to ensure that wildlife laws are enforced and by not achieving higher conviction rates when cases are brought to court." "In the same year, Defence Minister, Geoffrey Mwamba, was caught at Kenneth Kaunda International Airport with three large bags of elephant tusks. He was released without charge after claiming diplomatic immunity. The tusks were confiscated by ZAWA, but reappeared in the luggage of a Chinese diplomat at the same airport two days later. No further action was taken." "Zimbabwe Elite members of Robert Mugabe’s ruling ZANU-PF are controlling increasingly large tracts of wildlife areas in the country and some are believed to be supplementing their foreign currency income through elephant and rhino poaching there." The list goes on and on... Not enough land to cover? Yeah, unlikely.. Everyone can make up their own opinion.

[Abu3baid]

The Ethics of Hunting

All in all I thought it was a pretty well balanced article addressing both sides of the story of hunters claiming that hunting these big game animals is the only way to preserve the wild life, and eco-supporters countering.

I'm still of the opinion that I see no reason to hunt lions or any other big game animals for the sake of the thrill.. (other legitimate reasons might exist, but for the sake of the thrill only is not one IMO).  The picture of the guys all sitting around the dead elephant definitely made me sad.

Some other tidbits are below.

That’s a challenge for poor countries with limited resources — even if the officials from those countries are sincerely interested in anything but pocketing the hunting fees. Craig Packer, University of Minnesota professor of ecology and author of the book Lions in the Balance, told Yahoo Travel, “Very rarely does the small revenue stream even make it to the villages,” where it is promised, due to government and business corruption.

It’s probably no coincidence, then, that Cecil’s hunt took place in Zimbabwe, ruled by the cartoonishly corrupt Robert Mugabe and his family. “I’ve seen plenty of examples of dead goats or donkeys, strung up on trees, just outside national parks. This allows hunting guides to take their clients to a place where it’s easy to find a lion or leopard reaching up to grab the meat and then shoot it at close range,” Pimm told Yahoo.

[turtleback]

Can we agree that if what the dentist did was wrong that maybe it does not rise to the the level of wrongness that he should be globally shamed across the internet because there is a picture? Is full blown social media mob rule now our culture?