The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[pumaAttack]

This is news to you that pace of play is a problem? Do you remember the "While We're Young" campaign from the USGA from a couple years ago?

http://usga.org/news/2013/June/USGA-Launches-Pace-of-Play-Initiative/

Again, I don't know why you have this idea that keeping a good pace of play means you have to rush or can't enjoy the round, that's ridiculous.

You are showing a 100% lack of empathy here.

Just because you can't imagine feeling stressed or rushed doesn't mean others don't either.  Please try thinking of people besides yourself.  You are a pro level handicap golfer, of course you are gonna play faster than a 20 handicap.  Does that mean they have to rush to keep up with your pace of play?

I can't skate as fast as a NHL player, does that mean there is a pace of play problem in adult beer league hockey?  Should I have to quit hockey because I don't fly around the rink the way a pro could?

I could make just as good as argument that rushed and stressed golfing outings are "killing" golf because people won't want to return to that hectic atmosphere where they didn't enjoy themselves.

[saevel25]

You are showing a 100% lack of empathy here.

Just because you can't imagine feeling stressed or rushed doesn't mean others don't either.  Please try thinking of people besides yourself.  You are a pro level handicap golfer, of course you are gonna play faster than a 20 handicap.  Does that mean they have to rush to keep up with your pace of play?

If that 20 Handicap golfer is keeping the groups behind them waiting then yes.

[pumaAttack]

This is of course the crux of the problem.  Exceptionally fast players may impact wrongly on one group, but then such players are usually experienced golfers and they will do what they can to avoid seeming to push those slower players, unless those players are slow because they don't appear to be making any effort to keep up, and don't seem to give a crap about anyone but themselves.

Slow players impact everyone with them and behind them.  They simply don't have that right just because they paid a green fee.  Everyone else on the course paid to be there too, and they have a right to expect that the groups in front of them will keep pace with the groups that they are following.  On a busy course, all that can be asked is that the early groups play at a good pace (not necessarily the lethargic 4½ hours the course posts), and that all groups following with keep pace with them.  It's the fact that this rarely happens that is the cause of the current slow play epidemic.

As I said before I'll probably have to say again when people fail to read what doesn't add to their argument, I don't race.  I don't have to.  I play efficiently.  That doesn't mean that I score well, I don't these days.  But I still get around the course in an efficient manner.  I have a preshot routine that I follow with every shot.  I clean my club after every shot.  I put the head covers back on my woods and putter after every shot with them.  I play by the rules as much as course loading allows.  My brother does the same as I do.  Yet for some reason, we can play a course like Pole Creek at a pace of 6 holes per hour with no rush at all.  We aren't racing anyone.  We are playing a leisurely round of golf in 3 hours for a twosome, or a bit under 4 hours when in a foursome.

This is what you refuse to acknowledge, that it simply isn't necessary to rush or race to play golf efficiently.

If I want to play longer, then I play more holes.  That's why when my brother was visiting from Idaho, we played more than 18 holes for 3 of the 6 days we played - 36, then 27 then 36, with a day of only 18 holes in between each of those multi round days.  The longest round we played in 6 days was 4:05 (Saturday foursome at Fox Hollow).  We were on vacation, we are both retired and had no reason to rush.  We just played leisurely golf.  The fact that this seems incomprehensible to you appears to indicate that you could use some training in cutting out wasted motion when playing.

You are not even reading my posts...  I have stated I have finished 9 holes in under 1:15.  I play fast.

My whole point, which you haven't even read apparently, is that why do one group of golfers get to depict how another play their respective games?  If they are following the rules, keeping up with the group in front of them, and not playing double shots, why does it matter if they play a round in 4:30.   What gives you the right to change how they play?

[pumaAttack]

If that 20 Handicap golfer is keeping the groups behind them waiting then yes.

Maybe the pro level golfers should play harder courses during non prime time hours if pace of play is such a bother...

[Dave2512]

This is of course the crux of the problem.  Exceptionally fast players may impact wrongly on one group, but then such players are usually experienced golfers and they will do what they can to avoid seeming to push those slower players, unless those players are slow because they don't appear to be making any effort to keep up, and don't seem to give a crap about anyone but themselves.

I'll will skip a hole if there is a gap just to keep the flow going rather than have a slow group wait and watch me playing through.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Nah, it's just one of the reasons, possibly the "number one" reason?

Golf, a $70,000,000,000 industry is not dying because of slow play...  If anything that shows the courses are too full and we need more.  Hardly the same idea of dying...

And @Fourputt

Park Hill GC which is 6500 yards, lists their pace of play at 4:30.  And you think its right and better to play an hour faster than their suggested pace of play??

Taking 4½ hours to play Park Hill should be a punishable offense.  Essentially dead flat with no significant obstacles to play - a few trees, a dozen bunkers.  There's like one water hazard on the course and it barely comes into play.  That is definitely not a good example to support your cause.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

This is news to you that pace of play is a problem? Do you remember the "While We're Young" campaign from the USGA from a couple years ago?

http://usga.org/news/2013/June/USGA-Launches-Pace-of-Play-Initiative/

Again, I don't know why you have this idea that keeping a good pace of play means you have to rush or can't enjoy the round, that's ridiculous.

You are showing a 100% lack of empathy here.

Just because you can't imagine feeling stressed or rushed doesn't mean others don't either.  Please try thinking of people besides yourself.  You are a pro level handicap golfer, of course you are gonna play faster than a 20 handicap.  Does that mean they have to rush to keep up with your pace of play?

I can't skate as fast as a NHL player, does that mean there is a pace of play problem in adult beer league hockey?  Should I have to quit hockey because I don't fly around the rink the way a pro could?

I could make just as good as argument that rushed and stressed golfing outings are "killing" golf because people won't want to return to that hectic atmosphere where they didn't enjoy themselves.

And your handicap is at least 5 strokes better than mine, so what's your point?

[saevel25]

Maybe the pro level golfers should play harder courses during non prime time hours if pace of play is such a bother...

Umm, you do realize that golf is a regional thing. I am not going to drive 4 hours to a tougher golf course. Now you are just making really unreasonable claims to back only 9% of the golfing population who don't think slow play is an issue. It's getting a bit absurd right now.

You are not even reading my posts...  I have stated I have finished 9 holes in under 1:15.  I play fast.

My whole point, which you haven't even read apparently, is that why do one group of golfers get to depict how another play their respective games?  If they are following the rules, keeping up with the group in front of them, and not playing double shots, why does it matter if they play a round in 4:30.   What gives you the right to change how they play?

If the lead group is making the pace of play 4 hours in 30 minutes. Then I am sure that the starter will find that group and tell them to pick up the pace.

Your argument falls apart with this statement,

"If they are following the rules, keeping up with the group in front of them , and not playing double shots, why does it matter if they play a round in 4:30."

By stating they are keeping up with the group in front of them they are now playing as fast as the group setting the pace. So the group would not be asked to speed up because they are doing their duty ask by the starter, keep up with the group infront of you. It would be the group who is slowing down your group.

The fastest a golfer can finish a round is the slowest time the group in front of them is setting. Unless they are able to pass that group.

[Moppy]

It boggles the mind that this simple point eludes some people.

With the possible exception of generating some awareness in the group immediately in front of them, faster players do not affect the pace of play of anyone else on the entire golf course. Slow players affect every single golfer behind them ..and can continue to do so even after the slow group has finally finished and gone home.

So does the guy who played through six groups upthread.

[mvmac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumaAttack

You are showing a 100% lack of empathy here.

Just because you can't imagine feeling stressed or rushed doesn't mean others don't either.  Please try thinking of people besides yourself.  You are a pro level handicap golfer, of course you are gonna play faster than a 20 handicap.  Does that mean they have to rush to keep up with your pace of play?

No, it just means they should play ready golf, that's all anyone is saying. I've played with low handicappers that are slow and high handicappers that are fast, handicap doesn't really matter to pace of play. It's an education and an awareness issue.

Quote:

“Pace of play has become a strategic priority for the USGA, and part of a larger leadership agenda to address the issues that threaten the long-term health of the game,” said USGA President Glen D. Nager. “Our new campaign underscores a commitment to educate golfers and golf facility managers in a fun and engaging manner about all the factors that contribute to pace of play and the role they can have in implementing practical solutions to the problem.”

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumaAttack

I can't skate as fast as a NHL player, does that mean there is a pace of play problem in adult beer league hockey?  Should I have to quit hockey because I don't fly around the rink the way a pro could?

Two completely different things and you know it. That's like saying I can't keep a good pace of play because I don't hit it as far far as the pros or because I shoot higher scores than the pros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumaAttack

I could make just as good as argument t hat rushed and stressed golfing outings are "killing" golf because people won't want to return to that hectic atmosphere where they didn't enjoy themselves.

Seems like there are a lot more that are frustrated with slow play.

Quote:

According to industry research, the time that it takes to play golf is a principal driver that adversely impacts enjoyment of and discourages participation in the game. In a recent study by the National Golf Foundation (NGF), 91 percent of serious golfers are bothered by slow play and say it detracts from their golf experience; more than 70 percent believe pace of play has worsened over time; and half acknowledged that they walked off the course due to frustration over a marathon round of golf. USGA research shows that the golfer is just one component within a complex, integrated system that determines pace of play in the game. Golf course design, course setup and player management also contribute to longer playing time.

[pumaAttack]

Taking 4½ hours to play Park Hill should be a punishable offense.  Essentially dead flat with no significant obstacles to play - a few trees, a dozen bunkers.  There's like one water hazard on the course and it barely comes into play.  That is definitely not a good example to support your cause.

And your handicap is at least 5 strokes better than mine, so what's your point?

It is actually a perfect example...

You have 100% unrealistic expectations for pace of play.  You just admitted its an easy course, which it is, and yet you think their own pace of play is wrong.  I think they know better than you do what a normal round should take.  So if Park Hill is easy and THEY say it should take 4:30, why would a golfer rush to finish a harder course in 3:30??

My point is that high handicap golfers can feel pressured by fast/skilled players.  That can lead to stress and anxiety that makes them stay away from golf.   Just because you don't feel that does not mean others don't.  Those golfers, not me, should not have to feel rushed to keep up with a pro level handicap who is going an hour faster than the courses own recommended pace of play.

[pumaAttack]

No, it just means they should play ready golf, that's all anyone is saying. I've played with low handicappers that are slow and high handicappers that are fast, handicap doesn't really matter to pace of play. It's an education and an awareness issue.

Two completely different things and you know it. That's like saying I can't keep a good pace of play because I don't hit it as far far as the pros or because I shoot higher scores than the pros.

Seems like there are a lot more that are frustrated with slow play.

No, it is not two different things.  People could be educated (skating lessons, dry land training, more efficient strides) to be faster hockey players, just like you claim everybody can be a fast golfer...

You fail to realize that not EVERYBODY wants to play that fast.  Yet, according to you, they have to.

And the links you post refer to "serious golfers" not people just learning the game.  I highly doubt they think pace of play is a problem.  I would imagine they wish the pace was slower as they are learning, so they don't feel rushed.  You can't seem to show that empathy, at all.

[Dave2512]

Lol Park Hill. Extra long putt putt at best. White tees are rated 5 under par right? Nobody should take 4.5 hours there.

[14ledo81]

@pumaAttack , I like to play 10 hour rounds.

Wanna play behind me?  I don't let anybody through either.  Way to annoying.

That doesn't work for you??  Really?  Maybe you should pick a different sport.  Us 10 hour rounders have feelings too...

[Golfingdad]

My point is that high handicap golfers can feel pressured by fast/skilled players.  That can lead to stress and anxiety that makes them stay away from golf.   Just because you don't feel that does not mean others don't.  Those golfers, not me, should not have to feel rushed to keep up with a pro level handicap who is going an hour faster than the courses own recommended pace of play.

This is probably true, but it's true for a very small group of people relative to how many people quit golf or stay away from golf because it takes too long.

It's simple math.

Encouraging slower play will make 2 people happy and 30 people unhappy, but encouraging faster play will irritate 2 and satisfy 30.  It's not a hard call to make.

[pumaAttack]

Lol Park Hill. Extra long putt putt at best.

Not sure how that is on topic, please try to stick with the thread.

Park Hill is 6500 yards, and plays 4:30.   What is the problem?

@pumaAttack , I like to play 10 hour rounds.

Wanna play behind me?  I don't let anybody through either.  Way to annoying.

That doesn't work for you??  Really?  Maybe you should pick a different sport.  Us 10 hour rounders have feelings too...

You don't really seem to grasp this concept, do you?

[Moppy]

I am pretty sure what happens in this thread is that people paint the image of whatever group was egregiously slow the last time they were out on the avatar of anybody who simply thinks that perhaps golf is also about enjoying a day outside, and stopping for a second to look at a bird down by the creek, or to enjoy a flower, or a fox running down the edge of the fairway, or whatever is not a sin.

If I am playing in a foursome and the group in front of us is keeping a 3:15 pace, then it's see ya later! If a group comes up behind me, it's let 'em through! I am never going to play a 3:15 pace in a foursome. Playing alone walking I may play 18 a little under three hours, but otherwise, no, sorry. Golf is about a lot of things. Of course I do avoid busy times. I never play on Saturday or Sunday before 2 p.m. Because I know this about myself. I never play busy courses because I know this about myself.

You can't seem to show that empathy, at all.

I have been saying this, and others, and we each been repeatedly told we are the only ones who feel this way! I think they don't even have enough empathy to hear your argument.  Golf is about sharing a course. Both sides need to have regard for the other point of view.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is of course the crux of the problem.  Exceptionally fast players may impact wrongly on one group, but then such players are usually experienced golfers and they will do what they can to avoid seeming to push those slower players, unless those players are slow because they don't appear to be making any effort to keep up, and don't seem to give a crap about anyone but themselves.

Slow players impact everyone with them and behind them.  They simply don't have that right just because they paid a green fee.  Everyone else on the course paid to be there too, and they have a right to expect that the groups in front of them will keep pace with the groups that they are following.  On a busy course, all that can be asked is that the early groups play at a good pace (not necessarily the lethargic 4½ hours the course posts), and that all groups following with keep pace with them.  It's the fact that this rarely happens that is the cause of the current slow play epidemic.

As I said before I'll probably have to say again when people fail to read what doesn't add to their argument, I don't race.  I don't have to.  I play efficiently.  That doesn't mean that I score well, I don't these days.  But I still get around the course in an efficient manner.  I have a preshot routine that I follow with every shot.  I clean my club after every shot.  I put the head covers back on my woods and putter after every shot with them.  I play by the rules as much as course loading allows.  My brother does the same as I do.  Yet for some reason, we can play a course like Pole Creek at a pace of 6 holes per hour with no rush at all.  We aren't racing anyone.  We are playing a leisurely round of golf in 3 hours for a twosome, or a bit under 4 hours when in a foursome.

This is what you refuse to acknowledge, that it simply isn't necessary to rush or race to play golf efficiently.

If I want to play longer, then I play more holes.  That's why when my brother was visiting from Idaho, we played more than 18 holes for 3 of the 6 days we played - 36, then 27 then 36, with a day of only 18 holes in between each of those multi round days.  The longest round we played in 6 days was 4:05 (Saturday foursome at Fox Hollow).  We were on vacation, we are both retired and had no reason to rush.  We just played leisurely golf.  The fact that this seems incomprehensible to you appears to indicate that you could use some training in cutting out wasted motion when playing.

You are not even reading my posts...  I have stated I have finished 9 holes in under 1:15.  I play fast.

My whole point, which you haven't even read apparently, is that why do one group of golfers get to depict how another play their respective games?  If they are following the rules, keeping up with the group in front of them, and not playing double shots, why does it matter if they play a round in 4:30.   What gives you the right to change how they play?

You will have to show me where anyone said that they had a problem with anyone who keeps up with the group in front of them.  If they still screw around when they should be leaving the green, then yeah, I'll have an issue with them, because they still don't have the right to make me wait in the fairway while they fiddle around for no good reason.  If they keep up and move out promptly when play allows it, that's all that can be asked of them.  If they screw around just so they can hit the course pace on the nose, then they are a problem regardless of whether or not they do finish within the posted limits.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

@pumaAttack , I like to play 10 hour rounds.

Wanna play behind me?  I don't let anybody through either.  Way to annoying.

That doesn't work for you??  Really?  Maybe you should pick a different sport.  Us 10 hour rounders have feelings too...

You don't really seem to grasp this concept, do you?

Sure I do.  You think its ok to play at whatever pace you are comfortable with, and who cares what the others want.