Taking good balls from range buckets

[Aflighter]

When I was at the range yesterday I was pretty much alone where I couldve pocketed 100 balls if I wanted to and the course would have never known but if folks started doing that then eventually wed be under surveilance.It is stealing but at a golf course range they dont seem to be too worried about it the risk probably because its the owner of course money and not the folks who work there.Now the the lil old man that opened his own range and buys balls in bulk for his buisness really needs his because he doesnt have the funds of a course.

[Lihu]

I've read this whole thread. Hard to believe people will expend so much energy on something of so little value. If you want something ask the owner. I surmise that most range operators will gladly give a good customer the ball of their dreams. The customer is far more valuable to the owner than the ball. The answer likely would be quite different if the request was for a golf bag.

This is exactly why I changed my stance, while reading this thread. Yes, it's of very little actual value, and that's why it's actually so critical. If you putt to within 1/2" would you call it good? You can rationalize it all day long that the hole was not made properly and had a little bump that stopped your ball from rolling in. It's the greenskeepers fault. Or some other rationalization. If you do this four or five times a round, boom you just shot a 78? It could be either you or one of your partners that rationalizes it. It still doesn't make it right. Even the tiniest little things shows your basic character. If it's wrong or even if someone else says it's okay to do, it's still wrong. Just don't do it. The course OTOH does have a responsibility to keep the grounds free of debris and a lost ball is debris. I think what turtleneck said was on the money. Just don't do it, simple.

[mvmac]

Once those balls are hit and abandoned by the golfer, they belong to the finder. That person is the range owner, not you, guy-who-bought-a-bucket.

This is basically my take as well. The range owner is collecting, cleaning and distributing the balls. The golfer is just "leasing" the balls for their practice.

[Golfingdad]

How incredibly . . . . self-serving. If I owned a bank I wouldn't care if people came and took as much money as they want, so therefore it is OK for me to rob a bank?  There is no moral grey area at all, just a lot of rationalizing.  It is really very simple: 1) Is it yours? 2) If so take it,  If not, do not take it. What could be simpler or cleaner? It is the classic difference between mine and thine. Note, the actual owner doesn't need to be known, the size of the item doesn't matter, whether or not the ball is marked as a range ball doesn't matter.  The simple rule works perfectly no matter what.

See, and I think the actual owner DOES need to be known. In some of these cases, where people are suggesting that the balls are or may have been purchased by the range (golf "dome" example for one) then it's 100% stealing, no ifs ands or buts. However, in the type of situation that many of us are thinking about, it's a ball that was sliced into the range by somebody playing the ninth hole and they couldn't get it because they couldnt access it through the fence, or didn't want to risk injury, or couldn't find the needle in the needle stack. A lot of you are suggesting that that ball just immediately becomes the property of the range. Ok, maybe so, but it's not as cut and dried as the other scenario and I think you can at least acknowledge it is a little bit grayer than a ball actually purchased by the range. Consider this analogy: A person shopping in Target who drops a $5 bill in the cart and leaves without noticing. The cart wrangler gathers the carts, cleans them, then puts them back up front for more customers to use without noticing the money. Are you going to tell me that the next customer who uses that cart and finds the $5 is stealing FROM Target if they take that bill home?

[Ongle]

Anyone ever hit a ball at the range that was a few feet or yards in front of you or behind you that wasn't from your bucket? How about searching the woods on the edge of the range and hitting them back into the range? You didn't rent those balls so that be stealing too.

I'm a bit scared to admit I have done that too! Some of the guys in this thread, putting definitions of stealing in it, Lol would probably have me lined up against a wall and shot for it? So what if it is stealing, I'm happy to admit I do it (albeit I've probably done it twice in my life), I am obviously a terrible, terrible person And they're clearly better human beings as a result! I've also donated a kidney to a friend of mine, so on the good/bad life karma scale I reckon I'm still up?!

[newtogolf]

I asked the pro at my club-

Q- "If I discovered a brand new Pro V among the range balls, and took it, what would you say about that?"

A- "Of course you should take it. It's not a range ball."

Yep. Makes sense to me.

Interesting that your pro responded that way because this morning I asked the owner of the driving range I go to.  His response is that all golf balls on the range are considered the property of the range and if someone is caught cherry picking balls out of the buckets they will be asked to leave and not return.

[Golfingdad]

Interesting that your pro responded that way because this morning I asked the owner of the driving range I go to.  His response is that all golf balls on the range are considered the property of the range and if someone is caught cherry picking balls out of the buckets they will be asked to leave and not return.

I don't think that's interesting at all. I would be a lot more shocked if all range operators had the same opinion than I would if they varied like that.

[iacas]

This whole discussion has made me curious. I have a pretty good relationship with the owner of one of the ranges in town, next time I'm there I'll ask him how he feels about the idea of someone taking a non range ball with them if they find it in the bucket they got.

@Jeremie Boop , surely you realize that's just one data point. I asked two guys here in Erie who have ranges. They both said that they have caught people stealing from them as is being talked about here and both now refuse to let that person rent/lease/"buy" balls on the range. ("Buy" is in quotes because you're not actually buying the balls, you're buying the right to hit them once, during that visit, onto the range.)

I really dislike "one data point" type arguments. Or three. Or ten. Small sample sizes are basically irrelevant and super weak supporting evidence.

I agree with the whole religious analogy. The range owners should make a point to remove these unwanted prov1 s to as not to tempt us.

Ridiculous.

Consider this analogy: A person shopping in Target who drops a $5 bill in the cart and leaves without noticing. The cart wrangler gathers the carts, cleans them, then puts them back up front for more customers to use without noticing the money. Are you going to tell me that the next customer who uses that cart and finds the $5 is stealing FROM Target if they take that bill home?

The analogy falls apart quickly.

Is Target in the business of collecting, cleaning, and renting $5 bills?

Because a range is in the business of collecting, cleaning, and renting golf balls.

Target famously has red shopping carts. Let's say a store owner next door has blue ones, and they close down, and donate the shopping carts to Target (unbeknownst to the customers). Or maybe they just abandon them and Target starts using them as they mix in with the carts in the cart return thingies. Would a customer be justified in taking one of the blue carts home because clearly it's not Target's cart?

Some of the guys in this thread, putting definitions of stealing in it, Lol would probably have me lined up against a wall and shot for it?

No, nobody who is (correctly) calling it stealing is saying it's like murder or something.

So what if it is stealing

Yeah, so what if it's (insert crime here)?

I've also donated a kidney to a friend of mine, so on the good/bad life karma scale I reckon I'm still up?!

More rationalization. You saved a life already, so now you get to kill someone else, right? Is that how it works? :-P

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Lee

I asked the pro at my club-

Q- "If I discovered a brand new Pro V among the range balls, and took it, what would you say about that?"

A- "Of course you should take it. It's not a range ball."

Yep. Makes sense to me.

Interesting that your pro responded that way because this morning I asked the owner of the driving range I go to.  His response is that all golf balls on the range are considered the property of the range and if someone is caught cherry picking balls out of the buckets they will be asked to leave and not return.

Interesting, totally different around here, but I still agree with your stance in general.

[newtogolf]

Interesting, totally different around here, but I still agree with your stance in general.

Only way I could see range owners not caring or even encouraging people to remove non-range golf balls from the buckets is if the range is short and utilizes restricted flight range balls to ensure the balls are kept within the limits of the range.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Interesting, totally different around here, but I still agree with your stance in general.

Only way I could see range owners not caring or even encouraging people to remove non-range golf balls from the buckets is if the range is short and utilizes restricted flight range balls to ensure the balls are kept within the limits of the range.

Could be a number of reasons, but I'm not going to get into reinforcing the wrong side of the argument.

[Jeremie Boop]

@Jeremie Boop, surely you realize that's just one data point. I asked two guys here in Erie who have ranges. They both said that they have caught people stealing from them as is being talked about here and both now refuse to let that person rent/lease/"buy" balls on the range. ("Buy" is in quotes because you're not actually buying the balls, you're buying the right to hit them once, during that visit, onto the range.)

I really dislike "one data point" type arguments. Or three. Or ten. Small sample sizes are basically irrelevant and super weak supporting evidence.

I was simply looking to see what someone who actually owns a range might say. In my opinion, that means more than what random non range owners have to say. Also, as far as it being one data point, it's the one data point that's relevant to me. If the range owner in my area doesn't care wouldn't you say that would be an important factor in whether it's bad form? Granted, it would only be applicable where I live and not other places, but that doesn't automatically make it irrelevant.

[Ongle]

@Jeremie Boop No, nobody who is (correctly) calling it stealing is saying it's like murder or something.   Yeah, so what if it's (insert crime here)? More rationalization. You saved a life already, so now you get to kill someone else, right? Is that how it works? :-P

And yes, so what if I'm rationalising, I'm saying that I know for a fact all of the sanctimonious folk on here crying about how bad it is have done far worse acts in other aspects of their life, they just want to get all preachy because, well it's golf isn't it, and that's what golfers seem to do! I've admitted it theft and I've admitted I have done it on occasion. I'm also saying it's not the crime of the century and I've done plenty of good stuff in life too so I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. Arguing that I'm ok with theft so I'd be ok with murder is beyond dumb, it's sneaky in itself as clearly I'm not gonna start murdering people am I and claiming it's ok? Not everybody has the same strict moral compass as you lot. But you'd have me down as the devil for nabbing a decent ball. Which is why I brought up me donating a kidney. I'm trying to show people that me nabbing a golf ball doesn't make me the devil, in fact I'd be willing to bet that NOBODY in this thread has done anything approaching a 10th of the selflessness act I have done! "Ahh you know that Ongle? He donated a kidney to a friend of his!" "Yeah but hehad stolen 2 non range balls from a driving range once, so **** him!" It's just so ridiculous, the moral outrage of people not fit to clean my clubs! ...that last bits a joke btw, I'd let you clean my clubs.

[tefunk]

steal stēl/ verb 1. take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it. "thieves stole her bicycle" synonyms: purloin, thieve, take, take for oneself, help oneself to, loot, pilfer, run off with, abscond with, carry off, shoplift; More

Again, it's pretty simple... If a range owner gives one permission, it's not stealing. If a range owner does not give one permission, it's stealing. Is it the worst thing someone can do? No. But by definition, it's stealing. There's no way around it

[Jeremie Boop]

And yes, so what if I'm rationalising, I'm saying that I know for a fact all of the sanctimonious folk on here crying about how bad it is have done far worse acts in other aspects of their life, they just want to get all preachy because, well it's golf isn't it, and that's what golfers seem to do!

I've admitted it theft and I've admitted I have done it on occasion. I'm also saying it's not the crime of the century and I've done plenty of good stuff in life too so I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. Arguing that I'm ok with theft so I'd be ok with murder is beyond dumb, it's sneaky in itself as clearly I'm not gonna start murdering people am I and claiming it's ok?

Not everybody has the same strict moral compass as you lot. But you'd have me down as the devil for nabbing a decent ball.

Which is why I brought up me donating a kidney. I'm trying to show people that me nabbing a golf ball doesn't make me the devil, in fact I'd be willing to bet that NOBODY in this thread has done anything approaching a 10th of the selflessness act I have done!

"Ahh you know that Ongle? He donated a kidney to a friend of his!"

"Yeah but hehad stolen 2 non range balls from a driving range once, so **** him!"

It's just so ridiculous, the moral outrage of people not fit to clean my clubs!

...that last bits a joke btw!

I don't really think it's a matter of anyone saying it's the worst thing ever, they are just pointing out that it's wrong to do. I originally didn't think of it of a big deal, not that I've done it more than a handful of times, but now I think it's something that you shouldn't do unless you know that the owner is cool with it. Nobody is saying that you are a bad person for doing it really, just trying to point out that you shouldn't do it anymore.

[iacas]

I should add this badge to people's profiles…

I was simply looking to see what someone who actually owns a range might say. In my opinion, that means more than what random non range owners have to say. Also, as far as it being one data point, it's the one data point that's relevant to me. If the range owner in my area doesn't care wouldn't you say that would be an important factor in whether it's bad form? Granted, it would only be applicable where I live and not other places, but that doesn't automatically make it irrelevant.

It's just one data point, and what matters most is what the law says, and what morals we have as a people.

Just because one guy might not care (or, heck, maybe he says he feels he has the right to shoot anyone who steals from him) doesn't matter all that much. The law, and our collective moral compass and base… those matter.

And FWIW nobody (or at least not I) am lumping you @Jeremie Boop and others like you with @Ongle and the ridiculous things he's saying.

And yes, so what if I'm rationalising, I'm saying that I know for a fact all of the sanctimonious folk on here crying about how bad it is have done far worse acts in other aspects of their life, they just want to get all preachy because, well it's golf isn't it, and that's what golfers seem to do!

Ridiculous. Nobody's being sanctimonious that I can see, and you can't keep going on with the whole "people have done worse." That's hardly the moral standard by which I hope you conduct the rest of your life.

I've admitted it theft and I've admitted I have done it on occasion. I'm also saying it's not the crime of the century and I've done plenty of good stuff in life too so I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. Arguing that I'm ok with theft so I'd be ok with murder is beyond dumb, it's sneaky in itself as clearly I'm not gonna start murdering people am I and claiming it's ok?

My point was hyperbolic as I hoped it would make my point… but it has not.

So, now, I'm just curious, then… how many other "bad" acts do you get to do simply because you once donated a kidney?

Not everybody has the same strict moral compass as you lot. But you'd have me down as the devil for nabbing a decent ball.

Nope. Just a petty thief who finds it worthwhile to slightly compromise his integrity for a golf ball he can purchase on his own at virtually any golf store…

Which is why I brought up me donating a kidney. I'm trying to show people that me nabbing a golf ball doesn't make me the devil, in fact I'd be willing to bet that NOBODY in this thread has done anything approaching a 10th of the selflessness act I have done!

Seriously? C'mon man. That kind of stuff is just ridiculous, and I don't even think the people who think taking a ball from the range bucket is okay would really support you in saying that kind of stuff.

"Ahh you know that Ongle? He donated a kidney to a friend of his!"

"Yeah but hehad stolen 2 non range balls from a driving range once, so **** him!"

It's just so ridiculous, the moral outrage of people not fit to clean my clubs!

The only person looking to use one good thing to excuse a bad thing is you. Are you a child?

[mvmac]

Interesting that your pro responded that way because this morning I asked the owner of the driving range I go to.  His response is that all golf balls on the range are considered the property of the range and if someone is caught cherry picking balls out of the buckets they will be asked to leave and not return.

I think most pros/people that operate public driving ranges would agree with the owner you talked to. I can see how a pro, like at a private club, might have a different take (unless a guest was doing it ).

BTW, I've been a member at a couple clubs and have never taken a ball from the range. I've even played courses that have ProV1's (X-outs) as their range balls. It just doesn't feel right to me.

I voted for the 3rd option in the poll, just hit it like any other ball in the bucket.

[Ongle]

Are you really saying it's a slippery slope from stealing a ball at a range to murdering someone? What Im taking issue with is that judgement. You say it yourself: "I hope you don't live you're life by that moral standard?" So what if I do? Who are you to tell me how I should live my life? Oh but you are aren't you? But it's the law!!! Yep, sanctimony right there! Or are you saying you've never done anything wrong in your life? Judge not lest thee be judged.