SMU Golf Hit Hard with NCAA Violations

[Hardspoon]

Except that they can't play in the postseason for a different team this same year. You can't transfer in time and still be eligible, you are slapped with a 1 year ban from competition when you transfer to prevent players from team-hopping to keep scholarships.

Don't they usually waive those rules in cases like this? All the Penn State football players, for example, were allowed to transfer with no loss of eligibility. Not that the players aren't still punished, but I think at least the NCAA does what it can to give them a way out.

[mcanadiens]

Not that the players aren't still punished, but I think at least the NCAA does what it can to give them a way out.

This is what I thought the case usually is. Remembering back to the football scandal. SMU was flooded with coaches looking to sign players within hours after the death penalty came down. All the players could transfer a play straight away. The coaches were like a flock of vultures picking the bones clean.

[Gator Hazard]

I have not read any responses yet but I vote too harsh for the Golf program. I don't think it is fair to ban the individual student athletes who decided to go there from competing individually for the errors of the coach and booster.  If they cannot compete on a team level that is one thing, but to take away their chances at individual achievement for the transgressions of their coach and booster is excessive.

[Gator Hazard]

But we're not talking about USC, or any other "typical NCAA recruiting scandal". We're talking about this one. Where the coach was aware of the Booster's actions, and allowed them to continue without any intervention.

This whole "they're punishing the kids" thing is BS. Are the kids affected? Maybe slightly, but the vast majority aren't losing a damn thing other than the ability to play in a few games or tournaments. They may even learn something along the way about actions and consequences....a real life lesson.

The only thing I disagree with is that they are learning a lesson they should not have too considering they have no culpability.  How would 16-18 year old kids know what is going on when they are being recruited?  That would be like you coming to my house and asking to borrow my car, driving away, committing armed robbery and a double homicide and then the cops show up and arrest me for the same crimes.  Extreme example but to make a point.  I dislike a system that penalizes individuals for things that are out of their control, in this case the students are colateral damage in punishing a corrupt coach and handing a lesson to an institution and leaders of an institution.

[colin1870]

I feel like they should make it so the kids can transfer and play right away, not have to wait a year. After all, they didn't do it, the coaches did.

[DeadMan]

That same line of reasoning would say not to send a criminal to jail, because it could affect his family. The fact that people not directly at fault may be adversely affected when punishment is applied, doesn't mean that the punishment isn't warranted.

And yes, in life we're often affected by things outside of our control.

I read that right - you really just compared NCAA violations to crimes? Come on.

These punishments are ridiculous. SMU had about 100 impermissible contacts (which are phone calls, texts, or e-mails, not some shady meeting in a parking garage), and the coach gave about $1000 of merchandise away. I have exactly zero moral outrage about this. Okay, the coach should have followed the rules, but massive shrug at everything else. The coach got punished; I'm fine with that. Losing 25% of scholarships for 3 years is crippling (this would be like losing 7 football scholarships a year for 3 years - Penn State got 10 per year for 4 years for comparison), and then you're punishing the players with the postseason ban. Over $1000 and 100 texts. I would type more, but my eyes have just rolled back in my head from thinking too hard about this.

Except that they can't play in the postseason for a different team this same year. You can't transfer in time and still be eligible, you are slapped with a 1 year ban from competition when you transfer to prevent players from team-hopping to keep scholarships.

It is absolutely punishing the current players.

I don't know the exact rules, but transfers only have sit out a year in football, basketball, and hockey. I don't know how it would apply here because the school year has probably already started, which could make a difference.

[Mr. Desmond]

I read that right - you really just compared NCAA violations to crimes? Come on.

These punishments are ridiculous. SMU had about 100 impermissible contacts (which are phone calls, texts, or e-mails, not some shady meeting in a parking garage), and the coach gave about $1000 of merchandise away. I have exactly zero moral outrage about this. Okay, the coach should have followed the rules, but massive shrug at everything else. The coach got punished; I'm fine with that. Losing 25% of scholarships for 3 years is crippling (this would be like losing 7 football scholarships a year for 3 years - Penn State got 10 per year for 4 years for comparison), and then you're punishing the players with the postseason ban. Over $1000 and 100 texts. I would type more, but my eyes have just rolled back in my head from thinking too hard about this.

I don't know the exact rules, but transfers only have sit out a year in football, basketball, and hockey. I don't know how it would apply here because the school year has probably already started, which could make a difference.

Great points - heck the former coach received 4 years in non-coaching hell. The booster is excommunicated.

[Braivo]

That same line of reasoning would say not to send a criminal to jail, because it could affect his family. The fact that people not directly at fault may be adversely affected when punishment is applied, doesn't mean that the punishment isn't warranted.

And yes, in life we're often affected by things outside of our control.

They lost their coach and a valuable booster who likely supplied funds for equipment, uniforms, facilities, etc. When a man commits a crime and goes to jail they don't then go and forbid his wife from getting a job, do they? This line of reasoning doesn't stand up.

The problem is that the team members did nothing wrong to deserve the punishment. Maybe if they allowed the players to compete as unaffiliated individuals and any of their achievements would be disassociated with the school? Or at least let the players play, even if they are not eligible for awards on a team or individual level. Getting hit with a blanket ban from competition can't help their golf games.

The NCAA continues to punish unpaid athletes for the transgressions of paid adults and it is a massive power trip if nothing else. To ban an innocent player from competition or deny a kid an opportunity at a scholarship for poor adult decisions is weak. Banning the coach is appropriate, let the program move on without him.

I read that right - you really just compared NCAA violations to crimes? Come on.

These punishments are ridiculous. SMU had about 100 impermissible contacts (which are phone calls, texts, or e-mails, not some shady meeting in a parking garage), and the coach gave about $1000 of merchandise away. I have exactly zero moral outrage about this. Okay, the coach should have followed the rules, but massive shrug at everything else. The coach got punished; I'm fine with that. Losing 25% of scholarships for 3 years is crippling (this would be like losing 7 football scholarships a year for 3 years - Penn State got 10 per year for 4 years for comparison), and then you're punishing the players with the postseason ban. Over $1000 and 100 texts. I would type more, but my eyes have just rolled back in my head from thinking too hard about this.

I don't know the exact rules, but transfers only have sit out a year in football, basketball, and hockey. I don't know how it would apply here because the school year has probably already started, which could make a difference.

Yes, I believe it was the lying that got the book thrown at them. Schools self report impermissible contact all the time with no recourse other than a slap on the wrist. This happens all of the time with Twitter, etc. No biggie. The coach got his due for breaking the rules and lying about it, now a great golfer doesn't get to compete to defend his title. That's just dumb.

[Hardspoon]

They lost their coach and a valuable booster who likely supplied funds for equipment, uniforms, facilities, etc. When a man commits a crime and goes to jail they don't then go and forbid his wife from getting a job, do they? This line of reasoning doesn't stand up.

The NCAA continues to punish unpaid athletes for the transgressions of paid adults and it is a massive power trip if nothing else. To ban an innocent player from competition or deny a kid an opportunity at a scholarship for poor adult decisions is weak. Banning the coach is appropriate, let the program move on without him.

Not that I'm a fan of the NCAA, but it isn't necessarily black-and-white.  It's tough in any business/industry to punish those responsible without a "trickle-down" effect.  Look at Enron/Arthur Anderson (lots of decent people who did nothing wrong lost their jobs), or just ask any current worker at a Volkswagen factory.

(or, ask any Mets fan how they feel about Bernie Madoff - grrrrr)

As long as the NCAA allows any student to transfer without penalty, I think that might be the best they could do.  If they only punished the coach, programs could hire "scapegoat" coaches on a handshake agreement and allow them to engage in all sorts of shenanigans without repercussion.

[Pretzel]

Still, each of the players then has to find a school that they can transfer to - both academically and athletically. If the NCAA isn't at the very least facilitating the transfers (including the transfer of any existing scholarships with special exceptions) and working with schools and students in this matter I would consider them to be not doing enough.

You have to remember that college isn't all about sports, so transferring isn't as simple as just switching what team you play for. It's a large decision that could involve forcing the student to move across the country away from all of their connections simply because the coach and a booster broke the rules. It's not a small thing like many are making it out to be, and the hassle involved with a transfer even just between campuses of the same university (I am in the middle of working out a transfer from Colorado Springs to Boulder for a large number of reasons) is large enough to create additional stress for academic achievement in many without even considering the need to stay on top of athletics as well.

As a transfer student these golfers are also unable to attain any scholarships from their new schools, as scholarships are usually renewed on a yearly basis rather than semester by semester. This means that, even if a golfer wanted to transfer, he may be unable to do so due to financial constraints. These people still have to pay for college when they transfer, and the price will go up by a large amount when they lose any scholarships they may have had.

Forcing the students to transfer isn't just a minor inconvenience like people make it out to be. It is something that would cost the students both financially and academically. I say a much better solution is to strip the team of any titles earned due to their illegal recruiting methods in addition to preventing them from competing as a team (also meaning the college may lay no claim to the achievements of the individuals) for a period of time into the future. While it still is unfortunate for the students in that they can't earn team honors or anything like that, they are still able to compete for themselves without having to deal with transferring.

[Hardspoon]

Still, each of the players then has to find a school that they can transfer to - both academically and athletically. If the NCAA isn't at the very least facilitating the transfers and working with schools and students in this matter I would consider them to be not doing enough.

You have to remember that college isn't all about sports, so transferring isn't as simple as just switching what team you play for. It's a large decision that could involve forcing the student to move across the country away from all of their connections simply because the coach and a booster broke the rules. It's not a small thing like many are making it out to be, and the hassle involved with a transfer even just between campuses of the same university (I am in the middle of working out a transfer from Colorado Springs to Boulder for a large number of reasons) is large enough to create additional stress for academic achievement in many without even considering the need to stay on top of athletics as well.

As a transfer student these golfers are also unable to attain any scholarships from their new schools, as scholarships are usually renewed on a yearly basis rather than semester by semester. This means that, even if a golfer wanted to transfer, he may be unable to do so due to financial constraints. These people still have to pay for college when they transfer, and the price will go up by a large amount when they lose any scholarships they may have had.

Yeah, agreed...they should be proactive about it (pay for the scholarships themselves, even - hell, they certainly have the $$$) and actually offer assistance to make sure they are punishing the right folks.

EDIT - Here's a thought - the money from the fines should go towards this...

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardspoon

As long as the NCAA allows any student to transfer without penalty, I think that might be the best they could do.  If they only punished the coach, programs could hire "scapegoat" coaches on a handshake agreement and allow them to engage in all sorts of shenanigans without repercussion.

Still, each of the players then has to find a school that they can transfer to - both academically and athletically. If the NCAA isn't at the very least facilitating the transfers (including the transfer of any existing scholarships with special exceptions) and working with schools and students in this matter I would consider them to be not doing enough.

You have to remember that college isn't all about sports, so transferring isn't as simple as just switching what team you play for. It's a large decision that could involve forcing the student to move across the country away from all of their connections simply because the coach and a booster broke the rules. It's not a small thing like many are making it out to be, and the hassle involved with a transfer even just between campuses of the same university (I am in the middle of working out a transfer from Colorado Springs to Boulder for a large number of reasons) is large enough to create additional stress for academic achievement in many without even considering the need to stay on top of athletics as well.

As a transfer student these golfers are also unable to attain any scholarships from their new schools, as scholarships are usually renewed on a yearly basis rather than semester by semester. This means that, even if a golfer wanted to transfer, he may be unable to do so due to financial constraints. These people still have to pay for college when they transfer, and the price will go up by a large amount when they lose any scholarships they may have had.

Forcing the students to transfer isn't just a minor inconvenience like people make it out to be. It is something that would cost the students both financially and academically. I say a much better solution is to strip the team of any titles earned due to their illegal recruiting methods in addition to preventing them from competing as a team (also meaning the college may lay no claim to the achievements of the individuals) for a period of time into the future. While it still is unfortunate for the students in that they can't earn team honors or anything like that, they are still able to compete for themselves without having to deal with transferring.

Great post @Pretzel

[Mr. Desmond]

A 440 page manual to which  athletes (and schools) must agree.

Seriously?

No wonder the schools need department staff for compliance standards. Order up some lawyers with the pizza, too, and a bottle of scotch to read that ... stuff.

Meanwhile, athletes went hungry, no money ...

Let's penalize the NCAA...

[isukgolf]

That was 30 years ago...  Besides, SMU forced the resignation of the coach over a year ago. They apparently received no credit for that ...

You are right ... Holy crap batman, I am getting old ... seems like a few years ago. I do feel for the students, as they signed on in good faith.

[No Mulligans]

Just seems punitive for what it seems nothing the players did.

It was a former head coach and a booster ... let the kids play, take away a scholarship or two, disassociate the booster, and fine them some money. Maybe give the money to an underfunded program.

NCAA takes themselves far too seriously.

Given a violation between the coach or any other employee in the athletic department vs. a player...  I'd prefer to see more severe penalties when it's an employee of the athletic department that is responsible for the infraction, especially the coach.

The department doesn't have control over what the players do.  They're young, naive and think they're invincible.  And if they're anything like I was at that age, they're prone to do stupid things.

Even with a history of coming down with harsh penalties, e.g. the SMU death penalty, schools continue to try to get away with violations.  What's the NCAA to do?

I think the should ban the coach and any other employees responsible for life.  Leave the kids alone.

[Mr. Desmond]

Given a violation between the coach or any other employee in the athletic department vs. a player...  I'd prefer to see more severe penalties when it's an employee of the athletic department that is responsible for the infraction, especially the coach.

The department doesn't have control over what the players do.  They're young, naive and think they're invincible.  And if they're anything like I was at that age, they're prone to do stupid things.

Even with a history of coming down with harsh penalties, e.g. the SMU death penalty, schools continue to try to get away with violations.  What's the NCAA to do?

This was a Class A misdemeanor and they hit them with a big-time felony.

The judge is far too arbitrary.

[Hardspoon]

Here's a crazy thought - what if any penalty levied against the school for violations like this was delayed by four years?

Violation now...playoff ban in 2019.

You don't punish any current students...but the program is SCREWED.  It is probably a worse punishment than they get under the current plan, because they have no "captive audience" in terms of students who stay only because they can't transfer.

I'm sure there are some major logistical things I'm not considering, but it was just something that occurred to me.

[Pretzel]

Here's a crazy thought - what if any penalty levied against the school for violations like this was delayed by four years?

Violation now...playoff ban in 2019.

You don't punish any current students...but the program is SCREWED.  It is probably a worse punishment than they get under the current plan, because they have no "captive audience" in terms of students who stay only because they can't transfer.

I'm sure there are some major logistical things I'm not considering, but it was just something that occurred to me.

The only problem with this is that then you've really given the death sentence to the program. You will have literally killed it, because nobody is going to join a team that can't play in the playoffs later unless it's absolutely their only option to play college golf. Their team will essentially become Divison II quality at that point if you do that, just because they made a couple phone calls and emails that they shouldn't have, in addition to giving out maybe some college hoodies or school store discounts?