Gun Laws

[Mr. Desmond]

Bill Maher is an ass clown.

Sometimes he does go over the edge. I throw out the bad and appreciate the good, because sometimes the satire is very funny.

As to guns, I wish we only needed them for hunting season and sport. But the way our society is evolving, and with the lack of mental health facilities, and so many loopholes in purchasing guns, I would also have something more grown up in the arsenal if I moved back into the city. Some guy hacked a jogger to death with a machete last week in Dallas for no reason other than he was insane, and this guy was the random target. Until we address these issues as a society, then if a responsible, healthy citizen believe he requires protection, then just do it with proper training.

[iacas]

Bill Maher is an ass clown.

That's not contributing to the conversation.

[misty_mountainhop]

I suspect this may have been mentioned before, but go to YouTube and search for "jim jeffries gun control". All you need to know right there.

[saevel25]

Sometimes he does go over the edge. I throw out the bad and appreciate the good, because sometimes the satire is very funny.

My problem with him is, even though his satire is good he brings that same satire to his more serious topics, debates, interviews, ect., and uses it as a weapon against people who don't agree with him. If you look at John Stewart, he does brilliant satire, but when he does an interview he really tones it down. He can be very thoughtful about what he knows and believes with out using his satire to demean the person he is talking to. 
 

As to guns, I wish we only needed them for hunting season and sport. But the way our society is evolving, and with the lack of mental health facilities, and so many loopholes in purchasing guns, I would also have something more grown up in the arsenal if I moved back into the city. 

Not sure if mental health facilities will cure anything. At what time doesn't a teenager get despondent about something or another. It would be hard to really do anything about that because in the end a lot of these people act like other people out in society who wouldn't shoot up a school or a movie theater. 

[RussUK]

I've read the majority of this thread and can't believe how naive people are.  I grew up in a housing project.  Not only did we need to defend our self, we made it clear that we were armed and dangerous.  I've had several guns pulled on me with one being stuck in my back.  My regret was that I was not armed at that time.  I was defenseless.  I've been stabbed as well.  I worked hard and got myself out of that neighborhood by working night shift and going to college during the day.  I am armed and dangerous.  Don't come to my house with ill intent. 

You anti gun people, I pray that you will never need a weapon.  However, do you really believe you are protected by the Police.  I have all of the respect possible for Police Officers but they are reactive in nature in times of crisis.  I had a bad guy threaten to kill my family.  Fortunately, the FBI became involved.  One of the first things they did was to ask me if I was armed.  I assured them I was a mini army.  Every room of my house has a weapon ready in case the bad guy showed up.  Long story short, the bad guy is now doing 25 years in prison.  Again, I pray that you and your family will never have to go through this.  I assure you it isn't fun.  I also assure you that had the bad guy showed up, he would not have left the same.

Caveat to the story - I started shooting guns/rifles at the age of 7.  I took courses in gun safety all my life.  My family is very pro gun and also encourage gun safety and education.  My guns now have gun locks in place in the house with the exception of one.  There is evil in this world.  These shooting happed becaue of evil people.  Criminals are criminals because they break the law.  Laws to hinder gun ownership and use only help criminals.  I will seek my conceal and carry permit soon.  You want me to do that and be there if the bad guy is around. 

now i have to say i am one of the "anti gun people" you mention in your post, but to tar evryone one of us with the same naive label is a little wide of the mark. Gun ownership has its place depending on the country you live in.

 

The US, for example, has a much higher violent crime rate than the UK mainly because its a much, much larger country with cities with higher populations. Now i have no stats but im sure the Police officer to citizen ration wont be that high meaning gun ownership is pretty much a necesity.

Should gun ownership be allowed in the UK? no, not at all. Each of our County Police forces have highly trained armed mobile response units, trained by the military and well armed and the rest of the "standard" police are armed with tasers.

It works in a small country like ours so we need to control the flow of guns. Our police regulations are also very strict on when lethal force can be used, and if used the officer in question is imediatley taken off durty pending enquiry to make sure the discharge of fire arm was "lawful".

 

This wouldnt work in the US due to the amount of guns in use. My take on gun control would be a higher age limit as to when a licence and gun can be obtained. But whether it would help is another story.

[saevel25]

US, for example, has a much higher violent crime rate than the UK mainly because its a much, much larger country with cities with higher populations. 

LOL, not even close. 

From the FBI website,
The USA violent crime rate in 2013 was 367.9 per 100,000 people. 

From the UK Goverment website, 
Violent crime from Jan 2013 to December 2013 was 3.1 million instances, that means their violent crime rate was 4847 per 100,000 people. UK had 13x as many violent crimes. Overall they had 3 times as many violent crimes outright. 

Violent crimes are much higher in the UK. 

[newtogolf]

now i have to say i am one of the "anti gun people" you mention in your post, but to tar evryone one of us with the same naive label is a little wide of the mark. Gun ownership has its place depending on the country you live in.

 

The US, for example, has a much higher violent crime rate than the UK mainly because its a much, much larger country with cities with higher populations. Now i have no stats but im sure the Police officer to citizen ration wont be that high meaning gun ownership is pretty much a necesity.

Should gun ownership be allowed in the UK? no, not at all. Each of our County Police forces have highly trained armed mobile response units, trained by the military and well armed and the rest of the "standard" police are armed with tasers.

It works in a small country like ours so we need to control the flow of guns. Our police regulations are also very strict on when lethal force can be used, and if used the officer in question is imediatley taken off durty pending enquiry to make sure the discharge of fire arm was "lawful".

 

This wouldnt work in the US due to the amount of guns in use. My take on gun control would be a higher age limit as to when a licence and gun can be obtained. But whether it would help is another story.

I have no issue with anti-gun people.  I fully support the rights of those who are against guns and make personal decisions to not own any.  What I don't support is the anti-gun persons right to decide for me and my family whether or not I can legally own a gun. 

I'm anti-drugs (I've never tried or used any illegal drugs) but I completely support legalization of them because I realize that any attempts by government to ban them have failed and wasted a tremendous amount of tax payer dollars.  I'd much prefer we take the profits away from the cartels and dealers, make the drugs "safer" for addicts and tax them like liquor and cigarettes to fund programs for rehab and education. 

The gun lobby and supporters fight against any gun control legislation because our government has a track record of embedding loop holes into legislation that provides them with discretionary power and control once approved.  Our current POTUS and past presidents (on both sides) have used executive orders and liberal interpretations to circumvent the checks and balances process that our forefathers put in place. 

[RussUK]

LOL, not even close. 
From the FBI website,
The USA violent crime rate in 2013 was 367.9 per 100,000 people. 

From the UK Goverment website, 
Violent crime from Jan 2013 to December 2013 was 3.1 million instances, that means their violent crime rate was 4847 per 100,000 people. UK had 13x as many violent crimes. Overall they had 3 times as many violent crimes outright. 

Violent crimes are much higher in the UK. 

But how many of those violent crimes were gun related?

a lot of the "violent" crime here in the UK are the drunks on a friday night knocking ten bells out of each other.

Suprising and interestin stat you found though

[saevel25]

But how many of those violent crimes were gun related?

a lot of the "violent" crime here in the UK are the drunks on a friday night knocking ten bells out of each other.

Suprising and interestin stat you found though

How many non gun related violent crimes are stopped because we own guns? 

I can see a direct correlation between owning guns and stopping other types of crimes. Just like homes that have a security system versus not. A study by Temple University found that homes with a security system are 2-3 times less likely to be burglarized. Criminals do not want to deal with security systems and I doubt they want to deal with gun owners. 

 

[RussUK]

I have no issue with anti-gun people.  I fully support the rights of those who are against guns and make personal decisions to not own any.  What I don't support is the anti-gun persons right to decide for me and my family whether or not I can legally own a gun. 

I'm anti-drugs (I've never tried or used any illegal drugs) but I completely support legalization of them because I realize that any attempts by government to ban them have failed and wasted a tremendous amount of tax payer dollars.  I'd much prefer we take the profits away from the cartels and dealers, make the drugs "safer" for addicts and tax them like liquor and cigarettes to fund programs for rehab and education. 

The gun lobby and supporters fight against any gun control legislation because our government has a track record of embedding loop holes into legislation that provides them with discretionary power and control once approved.  Our current POTUS and past presidents (on both sides) have used executive orders and liberal interpretations to circumvent the checks and balances process that our forefathers put in place. 

Oh, i agree with your point on Anti Gun people deciding what people can and cant do (i would never suggest that) to protect families. Everyone has the tight to use appropriate force in that respect. My point was towards the younger people who get ther hands on weapons legally. Would a increase in the minimum age help (dont think anything could prevent) guns appearing in high schools?

As a Brit im a total outsider on gun laws but its always good to hear everyones views.

Has the gun been "glamourised" too much in the movies and indeed history?

I mean, the "modern revolver", The colt patterson .36 cal pistol, wasnt designed with the idea of it being used as a way of killing humans. Its initital use was by cattle men to use against snakes but became popular with the texas rangers, and snowballed from there with the likes of the "peacemaker" appearing to civilise the west in the dime store novels (yes, im a huge fan of the American West). Today we have all sorts video games and films, so can some young folk find the idea of a gun "cool" even when they have no idea of its potential for harm?

 

How many non gun related violent crimes are stopped because we own guns? 

I can see a direct correlation between owning guns and stopping other types of crimes. Just like homes that have a security system versus not. A study by Temple University found that homes with a security system are 2-3 times less likely to be burglarized. Criminals do not want to deal with security systems and I doubt they want to deal with gun owners. 

 

Fair point well made. Im happy to stick to my security alarm though thanks!

On another point, can US citizens openly carry a firearm (such as a handgun in a holster, not an AK-47 or such ). Ive seen programs about Colorado and seen civillians doing this and wondered if this is legal depending on state law? 

[Mr. Desmond]

My problem with him (Bill Maher) is, even though his satire is good he brings that same satire to his more serious topics, debates, interviews, ect., and uses it as a weapon against people who don't agree with him. If you look at John Stewart, he does brilliant satire, but when he does an interview he really tones it down. He can be very thoughtful about what he knows and believes with out using his satire to demean the person he is talking to. 
 

 

Not sure if mental health facilities will cure anything. At what time doesn't a teenager get despondent about something or another. It would be hard to really do anything about that because in the end a lot of these people act like other people out in society who wouldn't shoot up a school or a movie theater. 

The odd thing is that Bill Maher has no problems getting conservatives to appear on his show, and we are not talking lame conservative celebrities -- we are talking challenges like Ann Coulter, etc. I read an article about his show and conservatives state that even though they and Maher do not agree, he treats them better than any other show -- his guest room, food, and treatment are all top notch according to guests.

As to lessening the issue of ill-fated people with guns and murders, I think we need a holistic solution that involves education. If we want to be a gun society, it starts with gun education, ownership laws without loopholes, limiting some guns to more licensed individuals, educating parents about children and psychological issues that are brought out instead of hidden, getting more psychologists giving reduced rates to school systems for easy access to counseling, authorities listening to parents requesting help, etc.

These are long terms solutions, as short term quick politically motivated answers do not seem to work.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Mr. Desmond

[newtogolf]

Oh, i agree with your point on Anti Gun people deciding what people can and cant do (i would never suggest that) to protect families. Everyone has the tight to use appropriate force in that respect. My point was towards the younger people who get ther hands on weapons legally. Would a increase in the minimum age help (dont think anything could prevent) guns appearing in high schools?

As a Brit im a total outsider on gun laws but its always good to hear everyones views.

Has the gun been "glamourised" too much in the movies and indeed history?

I mean, the "modern revolver", The colt patterson .36 cal pistol, wasnt designed with the idea of it being used as a way of killing humans. Its initital use was by cattle men to use against snakes but became popular with the texas rangers, and snowballed from there with the likes of the "peacemaker" appearing to civilise the west in the dime store novels (yes, im a huge fan of the American West). Today we have all sorts video games and films, so can some young folk find the idea of a gun "cool" even when they have no idea of its potential for harm?

 

I support a universal 21 year old minimum age requirement (with exceptions for military and law enforcement) for gun ownership.  I'm not sure that solves the problems as most shooters were over 21 or had access to their parents guns. 

There is definitely glamorization of guns in the US within the media and video game developers, but mentally stable individuals can identify the difference between real life from movies and video games.   

Edited October 20, 2015 by newtogolf

[iacas]

As to lessening the issue of ill-fated people with guns and murders, I think we need a holistic solution that involves education. If we want to be a gun society, it starts with gun education, ownership laws without loopholes, limiting some guns to more licensed individuals, educating parents about children and psychological issues that are brought out instead of hidden, getting more psychologists giving reduced rates to school systems for easy access to counseling, authorities listening to parents requesting help, etc.

These are long terms solutions, as short term quick politically motivated answers do not seem to work.

Many of those things already exist, and we already are a gun society, depending on where you live.

And it's happened many times that gun owners are willing to give up a little of what they feel are "rights" only to get burned by the white lies they were told about what the new gun laws actually were.

And the solution is not to just throw more legislature at guns or gun ownership, as gun laws don't really change things all that much (except to annoy gun owners) because the vast majority of the gun violence in this country is an inner-city black guy shooting another inner-city black guy over drugs or whatever (an example). Gun laws aren't going to change that. It's already pretty difficult to own a gun legally in NYC and Chicago, after all… LA, too. Those places should be super safe, right? Errrr…

You can be all pie-in-the-sky about it, but at the end of the day, I'd bet that the vast majority of American citizens will not even see a gun that their family doesn't own or that isn't on the hip of a police officer this month, maybe even this year. The last gun I saw was on the hip of a guy with whom I'm playing golf today… and he's former military and currently employed as a federal law enforcement official. I don't remember the last gun I saw before that. Five years ago when a friend showed me a gun he was going to sell, I think? Gun crime does not significantly affect someone living in the suburbs or a decent condo or apartment. Given that the vast majority of the people you're talking about who commit violent crimes with guns are criminals who are probably not going to listen to your "parental education about children and psychological issues…", you're talking about attempting to legislate something that's not even as big to the average American as… accidental drowning.

Solve the bigger issues first.

I support a universal 21 year old minimum age requirement (with exceptions for military and law enforcement) for gun ownership.  I'm not sure that solves the problems as most shooters were over 21 or had access to their parents guns. 

There is definitely glamorization of guns in the US within the media and video game developers, but mentally stable individuals can identify the difference between real life from movies and video games.   

I support the > 21 thing too. But I doubt it'd have any real effect for the reasons you mentioned.

There's glamorization of driving fast in cars and just being put back on the scene of the accident, losing five seconds, and getting to pick up right where you left off, too, but yeah: mentally stable people are not driving around swerving in and out of traffic. Just as most gun owners are not going to go out and shoot someone today.

I think sometimes we forget how big this country is, too. Six people murdered in a somewhat brutal fashion makes national headlines. It sticks with us, too, for months. Yet, that's an act committed by a single person… out of 300 million people. That's not to belittle the lives of the six people in my fictitious thing, but just to say that people are still talking about Sandy Hook, or Columbine even… or the movie theater thing, and yet, those are fractions of a fraction of a percentage. Outliers.

Just like that one good shot you hit on the 14th hole in your round, that's not who you are as a golfer, those outliers are not who we are as a country. Are they troubling? Would I like those to never happen again? Yes. But they're not as common or likely to happen again as we seem to like to think.

P.S. The media will never get on board with it unless a law is passed or something, but I think it'd go a decent way toward helping if they stopped naming and making famous these assholes who commit or attempt to commit mass shootings.

[newtogolf]

As to lessening the issue of ill-fated people with guns and murders, I think we need a holistic solution that involves education. If we want to be a gun society, it starts with gun education, ownership laws without loopholes, limiting some guns to more licensed individuals, educating parents about children and psychological issues that are brought out instead of hidden, getting more psychologists giving reduced rates to school systems for easy access to counseling, authorities listening to parents requesting help, etc.

These are long terms solutions, as short term quick politically motivated answers do not seem to work.

The problem is most parents are unwilling to admit to themselves, no less others that their child has psychological issues.  When it comes to mental illness there's a lot of denial going on.  If the parents aren't willing to acknowledge the problem and doctors are legally bound from disclosing such information with the exception of extreme circumstances how does this information become available to those who evaluation gun permits? 

[Mr. Desmond]

Oh, I am not trying to be pie in the sky, but stating that there is no one solution, and the goal would be to lessen the problem. I think we need a comprehensive solution in which communication is key -- and that is difficult.

As to a gun society, a friend of mine did not think we were a real gun society any longer. He says "when we were kids, our parents educated us as to guns, we went to NRA safety classes, the Boy Scouts have a merit badge, we shot birds with BB guns, and our parents reamed us out... We just don't have it as much with kids and video games - they think guns are another toy..."

As to big city ownership where guns are prohibited, these laws do not work unless you have a federal law. It's easy to import guns from another city or state to loophole the law.

As to seeing guns, I saw them more in the '70s when we had shotgun racks in pickups and many had the gun hanging in the window. When I work in OK, I see more guns than in Texas. Living in the 'burbs, rarely see them unless it's law enforcement. So visibility is not the issue.

I seek a reasonable solution that does not restrict responsible owners from ownership, but a solution that lessens the occurrence of these horrible incidents and gets the mentally ill the help they need with educated parents - especially parents of young males who exhibit serious social and other mental issues.

The problem is most parents are unwilling to admit to themselves, no less others that their child has psychological issues.  When it comes to mental illness there's a lot of denial going on.  If the parents aren't willing to acknowledge the problem and doctors are legally bound from disclosing such information with the exception of extreme circumstances how does this information become available to those who evaluation gun permits? 

Agreed, presently many parents do not admit the issues of their children. That is why one part of a holistic solution is education, not only of children but also parents. We live, as many here will acknowledge, in a society of the ignorant who want to have easy answers spoon fed to them - there are no easy answers. It is one part of a long term attempt to lessen the issue.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Mr. Desmond

[Gator Hazard]

It's called satire.

Has anyone made the connection that these mass murders are mostly committed by young males unable to connect with females ... besides Bill Maher? Yes, I know, people either enjoy his satire, musing, or dislike him intensely... but maybe he has a point ...  blue balls, mental health, and our society making it seem like everyone is getting lucky ... except these guys.

So in other words, if we finally got with the times and legalized prostitution and had it regulated and more available, maybe, just maybe we wouldn't have any more mass shootings at schools from the dudes that couldn't make it into the fraternities?  Then like blood drives they could do a "Let's bang to stop the bang, bang, bang" drives?  Hmmm...

OT:

Maher makes my skin crawl (doesn't mean he doesn't make a valid point sometimes), he seems like a skeezy, greazy dude who spends way too much time at the Playboy Mansion doing what I have no idea but usually around girls that are young enough to have been his daughters some time ago.

[Mr. Desmond]

So in other words, if we finally got with the times and legalized prostitution and had it regulated and more available, maybe, just maybe we wouldn't have any more mass shootings at schools from the dudes that couldn't make it into the fraternities?  Then like blood drives they could do a "Let's bang to stop the bang, bang, bang" drives?  Hmmm...

OT:

Maher makes my skin crawl (doesn't mean he doesn't make a valid point sometimes), he seems like a skeezy, greazy dude who spends way too much time at the Playboy Mansion doing what I have no idea but usually around girls that are young enough to have been his daughters some time ago.

Maher is a an extreme liberal comedian/satirist/political junkie who admittedly smokes a lot of weed. If that's sleezy ... 

[Gator Hazard]

Maher is a an extreme liberal comedian/satirist/political junkie who admittedly smokes a lot of weed. If that's sleezy ... 

I know very well who he is, and I said skeezy, which is worse than sleezy.  :)